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  1. #121
    rip selfless healer

  2. #122
    Urgh, looking increasingly likely that I'll be moving to Mistweaver :/

  3. #123
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

    Sacred Shield for Holy Paladins can now be active on more than one target at a time, but the talent now costs mana, and has 3 charges with a 10-second recharge.
    [/QUOTE]

    Has this change been made already? I went on the PTR with my paladin and didn't notice any "charges". The only thing I noticed was that it could be applied to three targets, but with a 10 sec recharge inbetween each application. This seems like waaaay too much maintenance. Sorry if I am a bit behind the times with this one.
    Last edited by Martinczo; 2013-07-30 at 07:16 AM.

  4. #124
    Can anybody figure out the logic behind this most recent change to Judgment? Blizzard just has no idea what they're doing at this point. They essentially force us into a talent selection and then realize it's too OP so they nerf it. Why do they keep nerfing our talents instead of buffing the other ones? Here's a solution for each one to make them equally useful:

    1) Make Selfless Healer increase the cap on Light of Dawn to either 8 or 12, in addition to its current effects. Surely other classes won't complain about the increased target cap of our wimpy AOE heal if we have to take a talent for it, right? Lower the Judgment mana cost to 8% or something fair. This was just a ridiculous overreaction.

    2) Make Eternal Flame proc Mastery shields once more, but decrease the value. Maybe it only takes 20% of our Mastery? I'm not good with numbers so I don't know how effective this would be against causing us to be too OP, but as it stands now Eternal Flame is looking useful in only one fight compared to Selfless Healer which was running away with the competition (and of course, now all of our L45 talents are worthless.)

    3) Make Sacred Shield scale with Mastery, or something. At least cause our stats to have an effect on it.

    Now we're back to not having a useful L45 talent. Fantastic.

  5. #125
    It was obvious they were going to do this to SH. It's not like Monks dropping spirit. This was a particular talent that allowed us to drop spirit and created problems around switching talents in that tier because our spirit was too low for the others. In isolation I think it's a good change. Talents that create a completely different stat priority are bad. Holistically of course it isn't great. Our best talent got nerfed rather than bringing the others up. Still hoping for a balance pass.

    The SS change is nice for quality of life. Can anyone check and see if it scales with mastery yet?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Can anybody figure out the logic behind this most recent change to Judgment?
    It completely changed our stat priority.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    It was obvious they were going to do this to SH. It's not like Monks dropping spirit. This was a particular talent that allowed us to drop spirit and created problems around switching talents in that tier because our spirit was too low for the others. In isolation I think it's a good change. Talents that create a completely different stat priority are bad. Holistically of course it isn't great. Our best talent got nerfed rather than bringing the others up. Still hoping for a balance pass.

    The SS change is nice for quality of life. Can anyone check and see if it scales with mastery yet?

    - - - Updated - - -


    It completely changed our stat priority.
    they haven't changed it to charges yet so cant look just yet

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    It was obvious they were going to do this to SH. It's not like Monks dropping spirit. This was a particular talent that allowed us to drop spirit and created problems around switching talents in that tier because our spirit was too low for the others. In isolation I think it's a good change. Talents that create a completely different stat priority are bad. Holistically of course it isn't great. Our best talent got nerfed rather than bringing the others up. Still hoping for a balance pass.

    The SS change is nice for quality of life. Can anyone check and see if it scales with mastery yet?

    - - - Updated - - -


    It completely changed our stat priority.
    I read they wanted to make haste more interesting for paladins. So they allready went back on that then? As haste is useless for SS/EF and now also SH because we still need the spirit in all 3 specs.. Mastery wont go away whatever they do unless they remove IH from ae heals..

  8. #128
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Regarding the latest tweets, my analysis is showing about a 6-10% nerf from all fights (7.5% average, except Tortos which I cannot reliably estimate due to WOL being wonky) from our status quo. This is above the 5% estimate from Ghostcrawler.

    Also note that the "buffs" barely compensate (and still do not fully) for the nerf, but more importantly, do not forget that other healers who were either already ahead of us or barely behind us are receiving buffs of ridiculous magnitude.

    So I wouldn't immediately get comfortable thinking "we aren't nerfed," we were already second last and other healers look to be propelled far more than 7.5% forward putting us at dead last.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Corrupt View Post
    I read they wanted to make haste more interesting for paladins. So they allready went back on that then? As haste is useless for SS/EF and now also SH because we still need the spirit in all 3 specs.. Mastery wont go away whatever they do unless they remove IH from ae heals..
    Mastery was still the optimal stat for SH. You could just reforge your excess spirit into haste.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Mastery was still the optimal stat for SH. You could just reforge your excess spirit into haste.
    I guess I wasnt clear enough. I know mastery was still the main stat to go for. But GC made a tweet saying they wanted to make haste more interesting. Wich they managed with SH. But yes it wasnt mastery (which probably was there intent..) instead they managed us to reforge to haste from spirit..

    Only thing I liked about SH was that getting haste wasnt making you go oom faster. And now thats gone, and the clumpsy boring rotation is still in full effect
    Last edited by Corrupt; 2013-07-30 at 09:54 AM.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Regarding the latest tweets, my analysis is showing about a 6-10% nerf from all fights (7.5% average, except Tortos which I cannot reliably estimate due to WOL being wonky) from our status quo. This is above the 5% estimate from Ghostcrawler.
    It's probably slightly worse than the % estimates indicate. EF and mastery was our way of spread healing. It was all about shield rolling. Now we're really left with LoD as the only effective spread heal. On certain fights we'll feel the nerf a lot more.

    I suppose the main point is we didn't need a 5% nerf. Paladins in 5.3 weren't OP after losing the 4pc and the mastery nerfs.

  12. #132
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    It's probably slightly worse than the % estimates indicate. EF and mastery was our way of spread healing. It was all about shield rolling. Now we're really left with LoD as the only effective spread heal. On certain fights we'll feel the nerf a lot more. I suppose the main point is we didn't need a 5% nerf. Paladins in 5.3 weren't OP after losing the 4pc and the mastery nerfs.
    It would actually be less than my % nerfs, because I'm just deducting the heals I'm seeing and not counting for my EF bubbles sniping my own healing (though that isn't much to worry about with multiple disc priests and another paladin in raid).

    However, I'm also not accounting for behavior adjustment, if I knew EF wouldn't stack the same shield I wouldn't play the same way I do presently, whereas my analysis basically has me subtracting the EF shield but playing the exact same way I do now with exact same actions taken.

    Of course, I could be playing suboptimally, but that's the reason I took all fights precisely. A nerf is a nerf, whether originally not always playing optimally or not, so I wanted to model what it would do to me on average. When I theorycraft rotation versus rotation I generally assume near perfect play (though it's obvious which rotations are less forgiving than others, but that's more of a qualitative observation than something useful to sim).

    One thing I can try to do to model the nerf is to play with LOD only. The "nerf" is between 5.3 EF and live. So by playing with LOD and a non-existent (SH) or crap 45 talent (SS) on Live I can see what the floor is for us next patch; that is, using no talent at all. Unfortunately if I did this experiment next week it would be only with permission from the raid leader and I probably (or rather definitely) will not be doing so on Dark Animus, Lei Shen, or Ra-den.


    ---

    We really don't need the 5% nerf seeing as how other healers being buffed ridiculously is far more than a 5% relative nerf already even if they did nothing to us. Shaman are the biggest culprit, with their GG special snowflake 18 target healing rain. Sanctuary which has not been fixed at all is a good 2nd place. Disc is Disc.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-07-30 at 10:10 AM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    We really don't need the 5% nerf seeing as how other healers being buffed ridiculously is far more than a 5% relative nerf already even if they did nothing to us. Shaman are the biggest culprit, with their GG special snowflake 18 target healing rain. Sanctuary which has not been fixed at all is a good 2nd place. Disc is Disc.
    This is my problem with it. They act like Eternal Flame was overpowered and had to be taken care of immediately. Let me ask you this, because I honestly don't keep up with other classes besides healers, and I'm genuinely curious: have any other classes received a complete talent overhaul this expansion yet, so drastic that it causes them to reconsider rotations and stat priorities? I just cannot fathom why Blizzard thought it was necessary to rework Paladins now. If they don't want us using HOTs, fine, whatever I can live with it. But what in their right mind convinced them that the best thing to do was let Pallies use Eternal Flame for 3 patches and then suddenly overreact and gut the entire class for the last raid tier?

    Right now, as I've said before, the only saving grace I think Holy Pally has for being competitive next tier is getting the Eternal Flame change reverted. Even then we'd still be falling behind everyone since Druids get their mushroom buff, Shammies get ridiculous Healing Rain and Monks are getting OP Rushing Jade Wind.

    I'm just holding out hope that Blizzard has one final change in the works that will bump us up. Surely they can't let this joke of a spec get passed into Live...

  14. #134
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    GC latest tweet.

    "Aside from EF (which is small) and SoI (which we compensated for), which nerfs are you talking about?"

    Developers have no clue whatsoever. EF nerf small? Lol.

    And yes, GC also confirmed the judgment change was because we are dropping spirit.

    "Paladins dropping all Spirit to use SH wasn't the intent. We'd rather it compete on utility / HPS grounds not super efficiency."

    I love that he responded to aladya's point about monks and spirit ("But monks dropping all Spirit is fine? Even with 9k Spirit and old SH we could barely compete in 10s.") with
    "Monks don't do it if they choose the right talent. We don't think the mana or tools choice for paladins would be very fun."

    What? No monks past a certain gear point stacks spirit. And there are "right" talents now?
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-30 at 11:17 AM.

  15. #135
    This is just getting rediculous, we essentially need an extra 4200 mp/5 to get back to the mana effiency it was at when taking SH.

    Asuming we would go for 8k spirit in 5.4 that has basically changed to 14k. What a fucking joke.
    Last edited by Pacer; 2013-07-30 at 11:25 AM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    What? No monks past a certain gear point stacks spirit. And there are "right" talents now?
    He just means Monks dropping spirit is not related to a talent. It's their class in general. For Holy Paladins were were forced into SH as a talent because it allowed us to drop spirit and gain more secondary stats, making it the 'right' talent and the others wrong.

    As far as I'm concerned they've made the right choice on this. SH was simming as more efficient and more hps. Dropping spirit for one particular talent isn't great for the competing choices. I'm not denying these is going to leave us in a bad place again (no spirit SH being our only competitive option) but hopefully we will be adjusted to make up for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    This is just getting rediculous, we essentially need an extra 4200 mp/5 to get back to the mana effiency it was at when taking SH.
    It should have been that in the first place. We shouldn't need vastly different amounts of spirit depending on which talent in the throughput tier we take.

    The question now is if people will still be taking SH but with full spirit. Will be interesting to see.

  17. #137
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    He just means Monks dropping spirit is not related to a talent. It's their class in general. For Holy Paladins were were forced into SH as a talent because it allowed us to drop spirit and gain more secondary stats, making it the 'right' talent and the others wrong.

    As far as I'm concerned they've made the right choice on this. SH was simming as more efficient and more hps. Dropping spirit for one particular talent isn't great for the competing choices. I'm not denying these is going to leave us in a bad place again (no spirit SH being our only competitive option) but hopefully we will be adjusted to make up for it.
    That definitely is not what his tweet said. And if that is what he meant he failed to get that across because in no possible context would that statement mean what you are saying in response to what aladya said. But gc's statements are pretty dumb to begin with so it really isn't a surprise I guess.

  18. #138
    He tweets that he doesn't want us to choose a certain talent to gain more hps which in effect changes stats for us, yet they up mana cost of judgement giving us next to no leveled choice for that talent tier, laughing in the face of people who respond in relate to other classes? devs need to SERIOUSLY get reading the forums more and playing the game. Their sense of class balance is out of the window, raid bots couldnt be more wrong to actual numbers than they currently are

  19. #139
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdumb View Post
    He tweets that he doesn't want us to choose a certain talent to gain more hps which in effect changes stats for us, yet they up mana cost of judgement giving us next to no leveled choice for that talent tier, laughing in the face of people who respond in relate to other classes? devs need to SERIOUSLY get reading the forums more and playing the game. Their sense of class balance is out of the window, raid bots couldnt be more wrong to actual numbers than they currently are
    They don't look at raidbots. Anytime someone links raidbots to GC he scoffs at them. He says "HPS isn't all that matters".

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    That definitely is not what his tweet said. And if that is what he meant he failed to get that across because in no possible context would that statement mean what you are saying in response to what aladya said. But gc's statements are pretty dumb to begin with so it really isn't a surprise I guess.
    http://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/stat...81692573368321

    Thsi is exactly what he is saying; in a slightly confusing (and wrong ) way. Ergo what he´s saying is: Monks don t do it (dropping spirit) by/because of choosing a specific talent; but in general. That obviously doesn´ tmake it any better, but as usual, he can proove his point in max 160 characters...

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