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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    [Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

    Recap of the (relevant to raid healing) changes so far as of Build 17345 (latest changes in red):

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    • Mastery: Illuminated Healing no longer activates from periodic healing effects.

    • Holy Radiance now functions like a smart heal, healing the 6 most injured friendly targets within range, and minor guardians are no longer targeted. There has been no change to the total amount of healing granted by the ability.
    • Light's Hammer now functions like a smart heal, healing the 6 most injured friendly targets within range, and minor guardians are no longer targeted. There has been no change to the total amount of healing granted by the ability.

    • Seal of Insight no longer has a chance to restore mana on attacks.
    • Divine Plea no longer reduces the amount of healing done, and now restores mana based on the Paladin’s Spirit.

    • Sanctity of Battle now also affects the cooldown of Holy Shock.
    • Holy Shock mana cost has been reduced by 50%.
    • Judgment now costs 12% of base mana to cast (up from 5% of base mana).
    • Holy Insight now increases the effectiveness of Eternal Flame, Light of Dawn, and Word of Glory by 50%. Effectiveness of other heals are still increased by 25%.
    • Guardian of the Ancient Kings now has a cooldown of 3 minutes (down from 5 minutes), and summons a guardian that heals the ally that the Paladin healed for 100% (up from 10%) of the amount healed, but no longer heals nearby friendly targets.

    • Selfless Healer in addition to its current effects, now also causes Judgment to generate a charge of Holy Power. Stacks of Selfless Healer now reduce the cast time, mana cost, and improve the effectiveness of Divine Light, Flash of Light, and Holy Radiance.
    • Eternal Flame's periodic heal-over-time effect now heals for 40% more.
    • Sacred Shield now applies its damage absorption shield immediately, can be active on more than one target at a time, but the talent now costs mana and has 3 charges with a 10-second recharge.

    • Sanctified Wrath now also increases the critical strike chance of Holy Shock by 20%.
    • Hand of Purity now reduces damage taken from harmful periodic effects by 80% (up from 70%) and reduces damage taken from harmful periodic effects that cannot be prevented by immunities by 40% (up from 0%).
    • Unbreakable Spirit has been simplified. It now reduces the cooldown on Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Lay on Hands by 50%.

    • Glyph of Hand of Sacrifice: Hand of Sacrifice no longer transfers damage taken by the target to the Paladin.
    • Glyph of Divine Plea now reduces the amount of mana restored and cooldown of Divine Plea by 50%.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-09-05 at 11:36 PM.

  2. #2
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Once again, please remember to report posts that are off-topic, and do not engage in off-topic back and forths. Trust the mod team to clean up those posts quickly so that healthy, useful discussion can continue. Let's keep this one going and free of posts that aren't nice.

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  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-27 at 02:10 PM.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Something I was mulling over when thinking about the 5.4 BiS list: Assuming people go with the SH build, it is extremely mana efficient but relatively low throughput, meaning that we should not hesitate considering taking non-spirit items even, or possibly reforging out of spirit. If we go more haste-heavy, then spirit would be needed.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Yea but looking at the gear I am not seeing a lot of non-spirit items. There is a haste/mastery ring along with spirit/crit, spirit/mastery, and spirit/haste. Neck and shield choices are spirit/haste or spirit/mastery. Weapons choices are spirit/mastery, spirit/haste, or haste/crit. Now that we don't want spirit we are getting a ton of it.

    They have pretty much made spirit/mastery, spirit/haste, spirit/crit a choice in almost every armor slot(legs and belt have spirit haste crafted options so no heroic versions).
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-07-27 at 02:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Well it's simple to rank the items for SH: Mastery-Haste > Spirit-Mastery > Mastery-Crit > Haste-Spirit > Haste-Crit > Spirit-Crit.

    Stat prio is Mastery > Haste > Spirit > Crit.


  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    Well it's simple to rank the items for SH: Mastery-Haste > Spirit-Mastery > Mastery-Crit > Haste-Spirit > Haste-Crit > Spirit-Crit.

    Stat prio is Mastery > Haste > Spirit > Crit.
    I know its easy. I just wish there were more mastery/haste items. Not a big deal though. And I am not really interested in putting together a BiS list, looks easy to figure out on your own.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    Well it's simple to rank the items for SH: Mastery-Haste > Spirit-Mastery > Mastery-Crit > Haste-Spirit > Haste-Crit > Spirit-Crit.

    Stat prio is Mastery > Haste > Spirit > Crit.
    Would actually say its Mastery>Haste>Crit>Spirit.

    Not that it matters since you only need 2 important stats and we either reforge crit to mastery/haste or spirit to mastery/haste depending on the item.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Would actually say its Mastery>Haste>Crit>Spirit.

    Not that it matters since you only need 2 important stats and we either reforge crit to mastery/haste or spirit to mastery/haste depending on the item.
    I agree. With 9000 spirit and a resto shaman I just could not go oom at all.

  10. #10
    Crit will never beat spirit for the simple fact that you can spam HR with the excess mana. If you did not go oom with 9k spirit you did something wrong, I was running about 8.6k on protectors and did go oom(was dispelling though).

    What people need to understand is that SH is not good because J-HR-HS-LoD is a high hps rotation, its because we can regen mana doing that rotation and because we have 8k more secondary stats(mastery/haste) than EF/SS builds. So the whole point is to be on as high mana as possible so you can spam HR-HR-HS-LoD(our highest hps rotation) as much as possible.


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolori View Post
    Crit will never beat spirit for the simple fact that you can spam HR with the excess mana. If you did not go oom with 9k spirit you did something wrong, I was running about 8.6k on protectors and did go oom(was dispelling though).

    What people need to understand is that SH is not good because J-HR-HS-LoD is a high hps rotation, its because we can regen mana doing that rotation and because we have 8k more secondary stats(mastery/haste) than EF/SS builds. So the whole point is to be on as high mana as possible so you can spam HR-HR-HS-LoD(our highest hps rotation) as much as possible.
    The legendary metagem didn't work during the last tests however. There is a limit to how low u can go @ Spirit, which is around 7k(u cannot reforge any less). 7k Spirit is more then enough to allow a SH mastery build(the only viable build in the current PTR) to function, assuming metagem working and a resto shaman tide. Plus the +23k spirit/loss proc trinket isn't working atm because its eating stacks on cast so I had to use Horridon's instead

    Edit: I also hate being forced into SH and I am seriously doubting anyone who says that its "fine". Yes, obviously one of the 3 tier 45 talents will win, i just hoped it wouldn't be the one where Holy Shock is the only targeted spell.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-07-27 at 05:36 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    The legendary metagem didn't work during the last tests however. There is a limit to how low u can go @ Spirit, which is around 7k(u cannot reforge any less). 7k Spirit is more then enough to allow a SH mastery build(the only viable build in the current PTR) to function, assuming metagem working and a resto shaman tide. Plus the +23k spirit/loss proc trinket isn't working atm because its eating stacks on cast so I had to use Horridon's instead

    Edit: I also hate being forced into SH and I am seriously doubting anyone who says that its "fine". Yes, obviously one of the 3 tier 45 talents will win, i just hoped it wouldn't be the one where Holy Shock is the only targeted spell.
    Isn't HR also a targeted spell? So 2...lol. Regardless, hopefully with the number tweaking they say they are going to do, other talents will look more appealing. It's just ironic that they hate EF so much that they gut it and just make a different talent the default talent everyone takes.

  13. #13
    The Patient
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    Interesting to see that 4 tierpieces actually have mastery. Is this blizzard's way of saying "we know you don't like the 4p but we'll bribe you to use it anyway" ?

  14. #14
    I stand by SH being changed for Holy to give Judgment a 15 second cooldown and the full SH stack and 3HP. It would get rid of this low spirit build (which is going to force a full reforge every time we want to spec the other talents), get rid of the clunkiness of judging every 5 seconds and give us a bit more on demand healing boost via a 60% HR / DL followed with LoD/WoG allowing for more tactful judgment rather than on cooldown spam.

    Judging every 12-15 seconds depending on haste is fine. It feels Paladin. It adds a bit of flavour. Judging every 5 seconds on the other hand is just too all consuming yet it is looking like we will be forced into it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    Interesting to see that 4 tierpieces actually have mastery. Is this blizzard's way of saying "we know you don't like the 4p but we'll bribe you to use it anyway" ?
    The 2pc actually interacts quite well with the SH build. Over half of your HR will have a +45% modifier.
    Last edited by Pasture; 2013-07-27 at 06:08 PM.

  15. #15
    Even if our numbers are buffed I dont see how LoD spamming will be fun at all. With EF you atleast had to decide on whom to put it on.. Not to mention how useless I feel during the gcd of judgement, its not like I can use it whenever I got time over..

    SH feels like some kind of simplified DPS rotation, definetly not why im playing healer..

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    Isn't HR also a targeted spell? So 2...lol. Regardless, hopefully with the number tweaking they say they are going to do, other talents will look more appealing. It's just ironic that they hate EF so much that they gut it and just make a different talent the default talent everyone takes.
    Its more of a global aoe. While in 10 man u might be able to tell the primary target, you can't in 25 man.

    I don't think its a numbers issue as much as a mechanical issue. Ofc LoD doing more healing then EF is also number issue(and just stupid), but mechanically EF has to either have a sick HoT or to stack mastery and Sacred Shield needs charges, it needs to tick instantly, it needs more coverage in 25 man and those are all mechanical.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    The 2pc actually interacts quite well with the SH build. Over half of your HR will have a +45% modifier.
    Its actually a +50% modifier(1.2*1.25)

    Edit: Btw, can we all agree that the Divine Plea glyph is totally useless. I wonder what was the thought process behind it.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-07-27 at 06:23 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Its more of a global aoe. While in 10 man u might be able to tell the primary target, you can't in 25 man.

    I don't think its a numbers issue as much as a mechanical issue. Ofc LoD doing more healing then EF is also number issue(and just stupid), but mechanically EF has to either have a sick HoT or to stack mastery and Sacred Shield needs charges, it needs to tick instantly, it needs more coverage in 25 man and those are all mechanical.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its actually a +50% modifier(1.2*1.25)
    I raid 25 mans and I always try my best to cast HR on a target that is surrounded by other people (generally melee). So I'm not really sure what you mean by being unable to tell the primary target....the primary target is the person you casted it on? So if you're being smart about who you cast HR on (aka not casting it on the hunter in the middle of no where), then you should know who the primary target is. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

    Buffing the hot portion of EF is a numbers thing, not mechanics. Changing the amount of people you can put SS on can also be argued to be a numbers thing (like changing the CD on it, because right now it's a "soft cap", not a hard cap of 3 targets).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineux View Post
    I raid 25 mans and I always try my best to cast HR on a target that is surrounded by other people (generally melee). So I'm not really sure what you mean by being unable to tell the primary target....the primary target is the person you casted it on? So if you're being smart about who you cast HR on (aka not casting it on the hunter in the middle of no where), then you should know who the primary target is. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
    The primary target of the HR spell gets healed for 2 times the amount. My point was that you don't cast HR on the most injured people, (ie a targeted heal), you cast it on the cluster of people that's most stacked.

    @2nd arguement. I don't agree, numbers usually mean +5% to this, -10% to that. More then that is usually dealt in the mechanics phase as it changes rotations/prios and so on.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I stand by SH being changed for Holy to give Judgment a 15 second cooldown and the full SH stack and 3HP. It would get rid of this low spirit build (which is going to force a full reforge every time we want to spec the other talents), get rid of the clunkiness of judging every 5 seconds and give us a bit more on demand healing boost via a 60% HR / DL followed with LoD/WoG allowing for more tactful judgment rather than on cooldown spam.
    Agreed. I like the 15 second judgment idea mainly because judging every 5 seconds is going to become very tedious sooner or later making people want to switch to another class/spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    Interesting to see that 4 tierpieces actually have mastery. Is this blizzard's way of saying "we know you don't like the 4p but we'll bribe you to use it anyway" ?
    Pretty much lol
    Last edited by Iceadin; 2013-07-27 at 06:33 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post

    Edit: Btw, can we all agree that the Divine Plea glyph is totally useless. I wonder what was the thought process behind it.
    it is a pvp glyph.

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