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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Something I'm also wondering... even for low spirit builds, for progression, if unsure isn't it usually better to err on the side of too much spirit than too little (obviously not 20k but perhaps 7k is pushing it).

    /edit oh yes p.s. I realize that some fights are low-spirit fights by design, but then I'd imagine Illumination is simply not worth the glyph slot even if dumping max spirit possible for a specific fight reason.
    SH doesn't actually lose mana assuming that you use the spells near to them coming off cd, you have a resto shaman with tide and metagem works. Only Holy Radiance and Holy Shock cost over 4k mana. Most of mana lost @ testing was because of over spamming HR+ having to dispel.

  2. #42
    So, if we're truly going Mastery > Haste > Spirit > Crit, what about gems?
    Sounds like a massive cluster-f when trying to regem...unless there's a certain haste breakpoint that people are aiming for...from what I saw earlier, you need massive haste to reach 4 sec. HS, so I don't think that's the case...
    Any suggestions?

  3. #43
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    So, if we're truly going Mastery > Haste > Spirit > Crit, what about gems?
    Sounds like a massive cluster-f when trying to regem...unless there's a certain haste breakpoint that people are aiming for...from what I saw earlier, you need massive haste to reach 4 sec. HS, so I don't think that's the case...
    Any suggestions?
    4 second HS requires 50% melee haste, which will put you under spell GCD cap. A lot of wasted stats for nothing.

  4. #44
    My co-pally ran some spreadsheets that strongly suggests that full fractured is the way to go. I have a very bad T16 normal mode bis list that I just wrote up today (heinous self-promotion: http://intplate.com/lucys-ridiculous...-t16-bis-list/) if you want to look at that to give you a rough idea about stats next tier.

  5. #45
    Nice write up Lucyrotten. I also check out http://fullspectrumholypally.wordpress.com/ - some good info there.
    I'm wondering - if SH goes live as is, and mana isn't that big of a deal - what would our two best professions be.
    I'm going to assume that we should switch to engineering...

  6. #46
    From what I've seen people write and such, with the 10 man HS Build.. its going to be Mastery > Haste > Crit/Spirit.
    We might set spirit alittle higher on progress.. but i doubt it... Since there is mostly spirit on most of the gear in 5.4 so you gonna end with a decent amount of spirit anyhow.. Not sure if its gonna be the correct order.. but thats what i'm gonna go for our 10 man until we get back into 25 man...

    Best profession are prolly gonna be BS and engineering.. but aint it already the best setup atm...
    Last edited by Awakes; 2013-07-28 at 06:11 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I'm wondering - if SH goes live as is, and mana isn't that big of a deal - what would our two best professions be.
    I'm going to assume that we should switch to engineering...
    How do you reckon? Mastery will still be our best stat, so at least BS for extra sockets should still be one of the two best. One can argue that JC won't because of the stat budget on the gems, but I still dont really see how engineering would be better.

  8. #48
    I am curious as well to see stat weights. I think it's safe to assume that the gem sockets are final, since they represent a change from the original PTR gear.

    It's a whole lot of red, and most pieces have 180 bonuses. I'm guessing it's worth losing the bonus to get more mastery, though the bonus certainly is large, on an average 3 socket piece we'd be looking at 960 mastery (3 fractured no bonus), vs 480 mastery + 420 int (3 artful w/ bonus), essentially this is a trade off of 480 mastery for 420 int, meaning that unless the value for mastery is approaching 1:1, it may not make sense to gem out of bonus, but again, I don't know what the weights will look like.

    For me, SH felt viable healing with 2 disc priests in SoO 10m flex with our guild. Fights like immerseus still felt weird, I'm not sure if EF would be a better choice with avenger or something, just hotting all the blobs. SH required a quick refresh before split so the stacks don't drop off, a 3 stack DL tops a blob to full, but then it feels limited. I tried out execution sentence, which was helpful in grabbing another. I'll have to experiment here, but overall this fight looks to be pretty easy, likely even on HM.

    SH on protectors felt OK, because we were 3 healing, throwing out DL on a tank once in a while wasn't the end of the world, and GoAK is very good when it's time to stack. I do feel that given how weak we are at spread healing, this CD should really be dropped down a bit, even if it's 4 min or 3.5. One problem I see is that stacking on 10m becomes a much bigger deal, because if the damage is too much for LoD dump, there really isn't alot in your toolkit.

    The SH rotation in general feels ok, but I'm still figuring out when to stop judging during periods of heavy damage, and HR HR instead. Without the spirit, mana management is far more important. I did use Chi-Ji for the spirit, along with the amp trinket. I used the DPS meta gem because the healer one was broken. Otherwise I was mastery/haste/crit/spi.

    Someone correct me here if I'm wrong, but one advantage I see to running low spirit is that DP still benefits from hymn, since at low spirit plea is based on maximum mana. I'm not sure how much mana this difference is, and obviously the CD doesn't line up with hymn, but you can get at least 1 lined up usually. A double hymn with plea seemed to really be effective, though for some reason DPS still got hymn once in a while, I thought that had been fixed. SH mana does feel risky in 10m, it's like being on a monk, but knowing you don't have any way of catching back up on mana. It would be nice if there was something more here, like a chance for mana back somehow...

    I didn't test my MW at all, since they turned them upside down temporarily. Not sure if the new build with the reverts is live yet.

    Anyways, my biggest concern is what things look like at 550 ilvl, especially given how well other classes scale, and how viable SH is for 10m while 2 healing. I'm just not sure hpally will be strong enough across the entire tier.

  9. #49
    Keyboard Turner Priestalizer's Avatar
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    1) I highly doubt we'll ever be at 7k spirit base even if so you also have to count other effects such as spirit trinkets which people forget. On my base gear, reforging everything out of spirit (no spirit gems either) will give me ~8.8k spirit even if I reforge it to crit. While I might be able to get some more non-spirit pieces compared to what I have, if you take the gear with higher base spirit for next tier, it will even out.
    Not really going to argue.
    In my previous post about crit build the only viable trinkets with Glyph of Illumination are Horridon´s and some non-spirit based.

    As Voidspark said, this assumes perfect HS(never going to happen or come even close) and disregards the Dysmorphic Samophlange of Discontinuity. In addition it also disregards Mana Tide and simply put u can regen more mana by not casting the Holy Shock in the first place and just waiting for passive regen.
    Two "problems"
    1. You have to possess this trinket.
    2. Now imagine there is heavy aoe dmg and it proc. Not sure, if you can just use concentration potion and say: "Guys, I am not doing a thing for 10 sec but I will be back with full mana.

    Just an idea. You have glyph of Divine plea and 6 priests in raid (25). Probably only good use of it.

  10. #50
    @Priestalizer

    If you want to take the glyph, take the glyph. If you want to stack crit, stack crit. Just don't argue that's it's optimal unless you have actual numbers to show why either of those things, independently or in tandem, are actually a net gain.

  11. #51
    They changed the trinket so that it no longer loses a stack every time you cast a spell, it just loses a stack automatically every second. With the new trinket design, there is no longer any reason to line it up with a Conc Pot.

  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    Seal of Insight not restoring mana will make Holy unplayable at lower gear levels.

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    My post just made on the official forums after doing a good round of Proving Grounds to practice SH spec, will also do some Flex tonight to see how that goes:

    After doing some proving grounds with SH spec, not judging off CD is worse than not shocking despite it not doing any direct healing.

    Of course part of that is because of its mana component, but if we have to drop down to sub 9k spirit, it's going to be that way in raids as well.

    EF and SS both need a lot of buffs. The old EF playstyle was infinitely better than the SH playstyle as well. The latter is actually making me want to go disc now, not even an empty threat.

  14. #54
    I personally still fail to see where all this sudden urge for them to sweep a class from under its feet for a rework. If they can leave other stuff due to "lack of time" this expansion, but they'l fix it next so they can just be op for one tier, quite weird how theres so much focus on what hppens to holy. Almost every change I'v seen (disregarding DP and HoSac) is extremely cutting below the mark. Rather than do normal things like, buff the EF hot so it can actually be classified as such, or having mastery additionally effect SS amounts as someone on the forums suggested, they'd rather just swing their stupid hammer around more by removing stuff like SoI melee mana regen and reworking glyphs that, in all honesty are pvp related at best (looking at you DP glyph)

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Seal of Insight not restoring mana will make Holy unplayable at lower gear levels.
    Hey, that logic worked for monks...I see what you did there

  16. #56

    Running Numbers, again

    This thread has kinda died, but I did some more testing of different rotations and stats to see what would come out on top. What I did was I get on the PTR and buy 5pc T16 plus trinkets and ran multiple gear and spec setups. I then played each of the tier 45 talents to OOM as well as using the tool tips to see what the healing should be. I also used the last tier’s tier to estimate over healing numbers on direct heals, hots, beacon of light, illuminated healing to get a better idea of what the rotations will look like on live. My rotations used holy prism on CD as well as Holy Avenger. I also only had Kings, Might, Flask, Food buffs. My final spreadsheet shows the following:



    If you want to see an example of my spreadsheets look here: http://fullspectrumholypally.files.w...et-example.png

    What I got out of it was:

    Number wise you can see that the difference between Mastery and Haste is not amounting to very much. Each are nearly identical in output. There is a significant mana usage difference however on most setups. So as of now I will be sticking with Mastery > Haste but stat weight wise they are on par.

    Spirit will depend on your setup. If you are running Selfless Healer you can ditch all your spirit (9k) and have great output and without all raid buffs go OOM in 4 minutes. This is about how you will fair with a full Spirit build doing SS/EF with Holy Radiance as a HP generator. If you stick with full spirit (17k) on Selfless Healer you cant go OOM if you do the rotation. At about 13k you can go 10 minutes before you are OOM. NOTE: Legendary Meta on PTR is not working so these numbers will be off to live. However, I am betting with raid buffs and the meta you can do less than 11k spirit and be able to heal full on without fear of going OOM. At heroic item levels we might be able to forge out of spirit and have enough residual spirit to never OOM. The bonus you get in Mastery and Haste doing this is substantial.

    I also want to state EF and SS are not dead. The output on them is still just as good as SH except for the goofy no spirit versions. My numbers for EF account for not applying IM on the HoT and accounting for over healing and it is showing to be just as strong as rolling 3 Sacred shields or a sustainable Selfless Healer.

    EF was a big nerf to our play style so I am still worried that the other options are showing to be fairly equal. We did get buffs to the baseline healing on EF/LoD/WoG as well as to Kings and haste reducing our holy shock cd but I am not sure it will be enough to compete with the likes of Disc. In the end it really isn’t about us, it is just how we compare to OP/Useful mechanics like Atonement and Spirit Shell.

    Last thing I want to say after spending quite a bit of time rolling through the different rotations Selfless Healer is kinda fun but it feels more like a dps than healing, but without the usefulness of the damage. When you go back to a Mastery/Spirit Build doing SS or EF it feels painfully slow. Regardless of what we end up doing healing has turned into a game of sustaining a constant healing output and less about triage and decision making.

    Constructive feedback welcome on different modeling/rotations etc. There are many limitations to how I modeled these numbers like no meta, no deviation of rotation, percent of overhealing for new content etc.

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  17. #57
    Wow. Thanks for doing this! I guess the thing I find most curious about your results is the really negligible difference between having the amplification trinket and not. I would have expected a bigger difference with full mastery and full haste builds.

    Definitely something to think about. I'll be real happy if I don't have to judge.
    Last edited by Lucyrotten; 2013-07-29 at 04:53 AM.

  18. #58
    You guys are awesome! That's all I have for now =p

  19. #59
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    I'll be comparing to my model which is now very similar to yours, the one thing I would remark is that Time Until OOM is a very poor metric to measure anything, it's far too easily affected by even small changes. For instance modeling Divine Plea behavior is nearly impossible even on its own, and adding in even a few external mana CD's will change the Time Until OOM, both absolute amounts and the relative difference between rotations, to such a large degree it's just not worth it. The Meta Gem is just yet another ballpark.

    I think it's best to just stick to average rotation HPM (without the meta) and accept that we just have to figure the meta gem (and gaming it), and other mana CD's in when making decisions as to which one to use.

    On the other hand I personally didn't add any support for the Amplification Trinket yet (or any trinkets, for that matter). Since I'm still not 100% finished with my model, I'll just post my results here in current (548 mastery/spirit) gear:

    Control Rotation (HS - HR - HR - LoD): 166,719 (at 19.49 hpm)
    Selfless Healer (J - HS - HR - LoD): 165,212 (at 30.19 hpm)
    Eternal Flame (HS - HR - HR - EF): 166,929 (at 19.51 hpm)
    Sacred Shield (SS - (HS - HR - HR - LOD) x2): 181,216 (at 23.29 hpm)

    I didn't include Holy Prism since that ability's HPS basically blows away any rotation so it should be used at a higher priority no matter what (excluding other factors, such as timing it), same goes for other 90 talents. I might make a separate "burst" rotation that will take HA into account and will significantly lower overhealing (assuming there is heavy raid damage).


    Consider that SH offers incredibly good mana management with minimal HPS loss if you incorporate Judgment while the other two talents do not significantly increase AoE burst healing and do not give extra mana management. For instance SS may be nice on a tank, but in reality will just snipe Beacon healing if the damage is primarily AoE at a given moment.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-07-29 at 05:35 AM.

  20. #60
    Would be nice if they lowered all our spells mana costs by 10% and changed SH to 10/30/50% mana reduction..

    Tried Sacred Shield on PTR, seems so underwhelming to use. Not only does mastery not affect it but with more haste it feelt like the OH from it increased due to absorb running out faster. Or there is alot of fight where besides the MT will take constant damage to fully absorb the shields?
    And the mana cost is riddiculous high.

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