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  1. #141
    High Overlord Zarry's Avatar
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    So lets recap.. They initialy nerf EF because they didnt want every paladin taking it.. And at the same time they disrregarded the fact that every Hpala takes Holy Avenger over other talents in the Holy Avenger tier.. Shouldnt they also work in that tier then? No because the truth was they didnt want us having strong HoT's shield combo.. And Gc confirmed the truth some time after the initial nerf to EF..

    They rigth there and then have made us drop from being a strong healer to being the last one of the bunch.. But a lot of ppl work the numbers and see that if we took SH and refoged from spirit into mastery and haste our Hps even if it wouldnt be great it would be somewhat closer to the other healers.. But now that we had found a answer(even if i always felt that having to judge was a retarded thing to do as a healer when the spell gives no healing).. They turn around and go with "Oh even if monks do the exact same shit we dont want you having that advantage so well increase the cost of your judgement and nerf your healing yet again".. So we are now in a even worse position than we were.. SS is a joke both in 10s and in 25's so its not a option at all..

    SH migth still be the only viable of the 3.. But the amount of healing we will do is going to be severly less.. And the rotation migth end up being HS>HR>HR>LoD.. Lol we will only have to target the HS person the rest just do a macro for your tank and spam HR>HR>LoD.. Pro skillz dog..

    I never said this before but they have no clue at all of what they are doing with paladin healing at this moment.. And when we see tweets like the latest ones.. Saying that the EF nerf should only reduce the healing by 5% lol.. There's just no hope when the LEAD designer is that retarded..
    Last edited by Zarry; 2013-07-30 at 11:43 AM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarry View Post
    . SS is a joke both in 10s and in 25's so its not a option at all..

    SH migth still be the only viable of the 3.. But the amount of healing we will do is going to be severly less.. And the rotation migth end up being HS>HR>HR>LoD.. Lol we will only have to target the HS person the rest just do a macro for your tank and spam HR>HR>LoD.. Pro skillz dog..

    I never said this before but they have no clue at all of what they are doing with paladin healing at this moment.. And when we see tweets like the latest ones.. Saying that the EF nerf should only reduce the healing by 5% lol.. There's just no hope when the LEAD designer is that retarded..
    for ss in 25m I agree straight away, although why is it going to b useless in any given situation in 10? Can you provide,any numbers or other proof for your opinion?
    fullspectrums numbers might,not be 100% accurate, but the output doesn't look terrible for Ss. It might/will be weak in comparison to other healers output, but why is it a useless option in T3?

    EDIT:
    1)I doubt SH , after the Judgement mana increase of 140% is still the most viable of the T3 talents; but in the end it depends majorly on 25m or 10m (see above) and as well on the composition of your healing team imo+ the obvious one as in the boss.
    2) Yea I do agree, they don´t seem to know how to adress nerfs and buffs at all right now. But sorry what´s your point calling him retarded? is that of any help? Assuming any dev or so actually does check on this, you think anyone gives a shit if on every page serveral times a dev is named retarded? Or does it help you to call it out loud?- well do so sunday lunch time recapping the PTR changes to your mother or your girlfriend or your dog; idc
    Last edited by Medario; 2013-07-30 at 12:15 PM.

  3. #143
    GC/Devs seems obsessed with ignoring all numbers/evidence and justifying hpaladin changes with improving the fun of the playstyle. Even if 'fun' is by definition subjective I guess as lead designer that's his prerogative.

    Is there really anyone who thinks the new SH playstyle will be 'fun'? Or SS?

    Also, whether GC likes it or not, even if SH (or SS for that matter, or in fact any change they made) was some awesome feeling spell, with the best animation etc, it is never fun to be rock bottom of the meters on every or almost every boss. Just ask a shaman for most of this xpac.

    I bet you they're sitting in their dev office now saying to each other 'all these guys/girls on forums are just whining and when it comes to live there will still be tons of hpals in the raids, and we will be proven right'.

    They must make a change to make hpal utility better than a ret/prot. Make devo aura affect all damage for holy please, something at least.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by amillati1 View Post
    I bet you they're sitting in their dev office now saying to each other 'all these guys/girls on forums are just whining and when it comes to live there will still be tons of hpals in the raids, and we will be proven right'.
    Which will by the way be the case because no matter what the population on this forum says only a marginal % of the player base will reroll because of not being on top of the meters.

    Just sayin'

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Which will by the way be the case because no matter what the population on this forum says only a marginal % of the player base will reroll because of not being on top of the meters.

    Just sayin'
    Nah, I will just go casual-tard with my warrior alt/unsub until 6.0. We have a new resto druid in our 10, and Im trying to squeeze her in every farm raid instead of me (symbiosis iceblock on Ra-Den is the same as bubble -_- ). RShammy/Disc/RDruid is a pretty strong comp, I think. Maybe when Blizz could pull their heads out of thier asses and stop ruining whole specs mid-late into expansion, we could get somewhere...

    Offtopic: Is this what I think it is? http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=108373
    Last edited by Smag; 2013-07-30 at 01:15 PM.

  6. #146
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorant View Post
    Which will by the way be the case because no matter what the population on this forum says only a marginal % of the player base will reroll because of not being on top of the meters.

    Just sayin'
    The remaining ones will still be asked to change spec, or sit out on fights where performance matters, and they'll still feel bad about playing a class that can never do as well as the other ones... then we'll get more threads on the forums where people try to make themselves feel less bad about playing a weak class by arguing things like that "HPS doesn't matter".

    Honestly, the main downside to rerolling for me is that I haven't kept my other healers up to date on the legendary, so I'd have to spend months collecting secrets and runestones to get the gem and cloak, so I feel pretty locked in. If the bar wasn't so high...

  7. #147
    Not sure what to think about the judgement nerf. On the one hand I'm quite happy about it because I really don't feel like speccing SH and having to judge on cooldown, but on the other hand SS/EF look really lackluster at the moment. EF is probably all overheal, and SS just doesn't scale all that well (well not at all with our Mastery). The main reason I saw this nerf coming is exactly what Pasture mentioned earlier in the thread; you can't have one talent ignore all spirit, you'd get massive problems with talent switching.

    Not sure what GC is on about with his <5% EF nerf; am I missing something? Surely that is a whole lot more than 5%? And I think it's probably worse in 25 than in 10. In 10 you probably can still roll the mastery shields with LoD spam, that'll be harder in 25 for sure.

    All in all I don't think we'll see many changes anymore, which means we are going live in a pretty bad state. I feel a bit sad I totally ignored my Monk and Disc alt right now. Well I'm working on my Disc alt but it'll take weeks still to get my meta and cloak, and ilevel wise so far behind that it hardly is worth it. Guess I'll stick this one out, and rotate myself for 2 healer fights in favor of our resto shaman.
    Last edited by Cairhiin; 2013-07-30 at 01:32 PM.

  8. #148
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medario View Post
    http://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/stat...81692573368321

    Thsi is exactly what he is saying; in a slightly confusing (and wrong ) way. Ergo what he´s saying is: Monks don t do it (dropping spirit) by/because of choosing a specific talent; but in general. That obviously doesn´ tmake it any better, but as usual, he can proove his point in max 160 characters...
    He could have been more clear in that amount of characters. His statement when read with the statement Aladya made that he was responding to did not come across that way at all to me,especially not if you factor past bullshit he said about not wanting everyone to pick the same talent.

    It doesn't matter. He fails at being clear all the time, and changes are made that contradict against what he says all the time. Him saying the EF nerf is "small" makes it pretty clear he has no idea how the game works.

  9. #149
    Just a quick clarification;

    If SS remains at 30 sec duration, a 3 charge, 10 sec recharge means you could cycle though and have 5 shields up at once correct?

    (blow all 3, 10 sec->4th, 10 sec->5, 10 sec-> apply 6th but first one drops off) For 10 man that's quite sexy to have shields up on half the raid.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Just a quick clarification;

    If SS remains at 30 sec duration, a 3 charge, 10 sec recharge means you could cycle though and have 5 shields up at once correct?

    (blow all 3, 10 sec->4th, 10 sec->5, 10 sec-> apply 6th but first one drops off) For 10 man that's quite sexy to have shields up on half the raid.
    But after that you'd drop back down to 3 at a time if I'm understanding it correctly. You could only do that right at the start or when you have all 3 charges waiting. After 30 seconds you'll only be able to apply it once every 10 seconds again and go back to 3 targets (or is it four counting crossover periods?)

    The charge mechanic has always confused me.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    But after that you'd drop back down to 3 at a time if I'm understanding it correctly. You could only do that right at the start or when you have all 3 charges waiting. After 30 seconds you'll only be able to apply it once every 10 seconds again and go back to 3 targets (or is it four counting crossover periods?)

    The charge mechanic has always confused me.
    Hmm oh right, cause the 2nd shield would drop shortly after the first and then the 3rd...yeah so it would be 3 most of the time, but 5 for periods where you saved up all charges (start of fight or if there is a big phase coming and you plan for it)
    Less of a change than i though...boo.

    If only it scaled with mastery...still, for a 10 man, might take that, just cause I was glad to see judging for mana go and not sure i want to return to a Judge for resource mode of play again.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-07-30 at 02:00 PM.

  12. #152
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    The remaining ones will still be asked to change spec, or sit out on fights where performance matters, and they'll still feel bad about playing a class that can never do as well as the other ones... then we'll get more threads on the forums where people try to make themselves feel less bad about playing a weak class by arguing things like that "HPS doesn't matter".
    Which is total bullshit, and I even pointed out on druid forums (5.0) to the naysayers saying that that in fact, their class sucked whether they would admit it or not. Which was true. HPS might not be the "only" thing that matters but it sure as all fuck matters especially in the last tier of the expansion, when things like "mana conservation" typically go out the window. This trend of course is only looking to continue, not change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Honestly, the main downside to rerolling for me is that I haven't kept my other healers up to date on the legendary, so I'd have to spend months collecting secrets and runestones to get the gem and cloak, so I feel pretty locked in. If the bar wasn't so high...
    Main obstacle for me is the only class I have that realistically has a chance to get the cloak or even meta is my priest, and my guild is packed with them.

    It is sure looking (disc at least) to play a lot smoother and have a lot more power than my paladin for next tier, even at lower gear levels.

    Hey, HPS might matter, but gear sure doesn't when a 530 priest can keep up with a 550 paladin.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    Not sure what GC is on about with his <5% EF nerf; am I missing something? Surely that is a whole lot more than 5%? And I think it's probably worse in 25 than in 10. In 10 you probably can still roll the mastery shields with LoD spam, that'll be harder in 25 for sure.
    It is about a 7% nerf which is not that terrible when looked at in vacuum, but you have to realize that

    1) We are in 2nd to last place right now.

    2) Other classes are getting enormous buffs and miles better tier bonuses including priests, monks (instead of nerfing their mana regen as promised, monks only got buffs?!), druid, and shaman especially. We are now getting an under-compensated "minor nerf" but basically what it really amounts to is a kick when already down.

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the way, I really wish more paladins had done proving grounds pre-new build when it was nerfed, it would have given y'all some very good perspective into how frustrating Devotion Aura as "raid damage reduction" can be especially when compared to other healer CD's (such as the 3 minute YOLO cooldowns).
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-07-30 at 01:52 PM.

  13. #153
    Heavily intellect based Sacred Shield build, thoughts, comments, concerns? I haven't done much math on it yet but I am curious to other peoples opinions.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I really wish more paladins
    I would like to test SS build after the Judgment nerf. But we most likely will have to take what we get. Devs don't really care about player feedback.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by paladative View Post
    I would like to test SS build after the Judgment nerf. But we most likely will have to take what we get. Devs don't really care about player feedback.
    I 'd like to,know the mana cost for the Ss. If they come up with some weirdness as for judgment it s doa

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It is about a 7% nerf which is not that terrible when looked at in vacuum, but you have to realize that

    1) We are in 2nd to last place right now.

    2) Other classes are getting enormous buffs and miles better tier bonuses including priests, monks (instead of nerfing their mana regen as promised, monks only got buffs?!), druid, and shaman especially. We are now getting an under-compensated "minor nerf" but basically what it really amounts to is a kick when already down.

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the way, I really wish more paladins had done proving grounds pre-new build when it was nerfed, it would have given y'all some very good perspective into how frustrating Devotion Aura as "raid damage reduction" can be especially when compared to other healer CD's (such as the 3 minute YOLO cooldowns).
    Its a much bigger nerf then 7% given the level of mastery that you can reach in SoO gear. Not to mention the nerf of the shield not holding for damage to break it, a lesser concern in 10 man where LoD hits 60% of the raid, but massive in 25 man.

    The problem isn't that SH is getting a nerf. I hate SH myself. The problem is the LEAD DEVELOPER saying
    " Aside from EF (which is small) and SoI (which we compensated for), which nerfs are you talking about?"

    Let me make this clear, as it might not be obvious
    1) On average LoD>EF on the PTR. This instantly kills EF at root level, as a talent EF needs to outheal LoD by a substantial margin.
    2) Current SoI+Current DP will outregen PTR DP on a fight you can melee on by 5 times.

    The issues against us are numerous

    1)We need the raid more stacked then shamans to aoe heal in 25 man
    2)We don't benefit from the legendary cloak as much as the the other healing classes minus disc priest, the legendary cloak is available from first day 5.4
    3)We are the 2nd to last healers on output on live and we are getting nerfed, while other classes have either been untouched or buffed significantly
    4)Nothing has been done for Devotion Aura despite various encounters in SoO once again having physical raid wide dmg

    The response from Blizzard is completely unacceptable. There are countless threads, the US Paladin thread alone has over 56 pages, there are logs at developer discretion, the feedback has been overwhelmingly negative with countless tweets, blogs and so on. And yet, I just couldn't believe my eyes when i read his reply this morning.
    Last edited by Aladya; 2013-07-30 at 04:11 PM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Sellinz View Post
    Heavily intellect based Sacred Shield build, thoughts, comments, concerns? I haven't done much math on it yet but I am curious to other peoples opinions.
    SS just isn't very useful. The target cap an relative unpredictability of the shield activating at the right time make it not very appealing to me. Couple that with the very high change of overhealing most of its value and it's just not on my radar at all except for maybe a weird niche fight that I can't conceive of where only three people are taking at a time.

    I'm disappointed that they decided to increase in mana cost on judgment and it still doesn't bring it down enough to be even with the other talents.

    I despise judging and I'm not looking forward to the next tier for that reason alone. I have no other healer options since I have zero motivation to plays alts in mop. I'm not waving empty threats around because I won't be rerolling, I probably won't quit the game but realistically I can't see that the playstyle is going to enhance my enjoyment in any way.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    SS just isn't very useful. The target cap an relative unpredictability of the shield activating at the right time make it not very appealing to me. Couple that with the very high change of overhealing most of its value and it's just not on my radar at all except for maybe a weird niche fight that I can't conceive of where only three people are taking at a time.

    I'm disappointed that they decided to increase in mana cost on judgment and it still doesn't bring it down enough to be even with the other talents.

    I despise judging and I'm not looking forward to the next tier for that reason alone. I have no other healer options since I have zero motivation to plays alts in mop. I'm not waving empty threats around because I won't be rerolling, I probably won't quit the game but realistically I can't see that the playstyle is going to enhance my enjoyment in any way.
    I think it will be awesome for a fight where both tanks are taking damage, realistically straying away from Mastery isn't practical though after I have crunched some numbers ;p

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    ...I just couldn't believe my eyes when i read his reply this morning.
    The devs can't care anything less than feedback.

  20. #160
    High Overlord Zarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medario View Post
    for ss in 25m I agree straight away, although why is it going to b useless in any given situation in 10? Can you provide,any numbers or other proof for your opinion?
    fullspectrums numbers might,not be 100% accurate, but the output doesn't look terrible for Ss. It might/will be weak in comparison to other healers output, but why is it a useless option in T3?

    EDIT:
    1)I doubt SH , after the Judgement mana increase of 140% is still the most viable of the T3 talents; but in the end it depends majorly on 25m or 10m (see above) and as well on the composition of your healing team imo+ the obvious one as in the boss.
    2) Yea I do agree, they don´t seem to know how to adress nerfs and buffs at all right now. But sorry what´s your point calling him retarded? is that of any help? Assuming any dev or so actually does check on this, you think anyone gives a shit if on every page serveral times a dev is named retarded? Or does it help you to call it out loud?- well do so sunday lunch time recapping the PTR changes to your mother or your girlfriend or your dog; idc
    The scaling of SS is terrible its as simple as that.. And in a high damage scenario SH will give you a little more of a Hps boost than SS.. And with EF beeing worse than LoD in almost every scenario.. SH will still be the talent to get in most bosses..

    I have the rigth to call him whatever i want when after getting imense responses from the paladin comunity him and the rest of the devs act like there isnt any problems and that we are balanced.. Either they dont understand the class and the abilities they created themselfs or they are just lying when they say they think we are balanced.. Pick one..

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