[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion Pt. 2

[Deleted]

To follow up on the cleave healing trinket "Thok's Acid-Grooved Tooth" asuming a ra-den type fight this trinket will effectively DOUBLE the healing from HR and Daybreak. The trinket can proc from every single heal in the game and HR heals 30-35 targets on ra-den depending on how many pets are up.

Even when we are not on a ra-den type fight this trinket will be absolutely insane in 25 man raiding. In 10 man on Galakras it was 7% of my healing and 9% of Tonic's healing.

[nightfalls]

Eternal Flame: Has Been replaced with a new talent named "Buff my Specials" and increases the healing of Light of Dawn, Eternal Flame/Word of Glory, Holy Prism, Light's Hammer, Stay of Execution by 25%.

What would your 45 talent do for Protection and Ret? Not to sound dismissive, but it would be difficult for anyone to take the idea seriously if it comes off as short-sighted.

[bouchbagfett]

Selfless healer and Sacred Shield are the same. The new talent just boosts the healing the t90 talent and WoG does. So for Ret and Prot it is still just a choice about what heal to take.

[nightfalls]

Selfless healer and Sacred Shield are the same. The new talent just boosts the healing the t90 talent and WoG does. So for Ret and Prot it is still just a choice about what heal to take.

Fair enough. So really it's "buff my special healing" and not "buff my specials," but that could work. It probably shouldn't increase the 90 talent healing though, and if it doesn't do so it makes for a pretty boring talent.

[bouchbagfett]

Buffing the level 90 talent and the healing finishers makes it even with other L45 talents, otherwise it would be underpowered. It is sorta just a stand in tatlent that is even and worthwhile.

[nightfalls]

Buffing the level 90 talent and the healing finishers makes it even with other L45 talents, otherwise it would be underpowered. It is sorta just a stand in tatlent that is even and worthwhile.

Most talent tiers don't interact with each other, however.

[Iceadin]

The whole logic behind devs wanting roughly equal preference for talent choices is flawed..


trying to balance talents so that they are all useful to all 3 specs on all bosses is an impossible task.

they should focus on making talents each very good at what they do and then just have boss mechanics make players switch talents more

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at the moment in a tier you normally have 1 'talent' and 2 'impediments' - ie. talents that are just useless in almost every situation.

make all 3 talents so good at what they are meant to do (AE healing, ST healing, shorten CD etc) so u have something big to give up in order to get something big in a different area

I agree, It seems they are too busy focusing on making the lv 45 talents equal which is obviously impossible. It makes much more sense for them to balance encounters around using different talents in this case.

[paladative]

What would your 45 talent do for Protection and Ret? Not to sound dismissive, but it would be difficult for anyone to take the idea seriously if it comes off as short-sighted.

Ret and Prot don't like EF on live. Ret would rather use that 3 HoPo for a TV and go with SH, remember, Ret FoL is buffed 100% in 5.2; Prot do use WoG from time to time, if they have 4T15, but as you know SS is out of control for prot

[Freia]

Ret and Prot don't like EF on live. Ret would rather use that 3 HoPo for a TV and go with SH, remember, Ret FoL is buffed 100% in 5.2; Prot do use WoG from time to time, if they have 4T15, but as you know SS is out of control for prot

Everyone is aware Ret and Prot do not take EF. The suggested talent to replace EF just didn't have the Ret/Prot effects included and that is what Void was asking.

[nightfalls]

Everyone is aware Ret and Prot do not take EF. The suggested talent to replace EF just didn't have the Ret/Prot effects included and that is what Void was asking.

The tier is supposed to be a healing tier, but I'm not sure that a talent that just says "Buff Word of Glory by X%" is very interesting for Ret/Prot. Of course they do not take EF as is anyway.

[paladative]

I don't agree that it was an issue. Devo for the most part still prevented less damage than the not scaled healing cooldowns healed, but they both had their advantages. Most of the complaints healers with healing cooldowns really just stemmed from, "The DR cooldowns prevent damage and that snips my heals!". Seriously even when the scaling change was announced healers were bitching saying, "This is a buff to Devo and barrier because that is more healing they can snip".

All the scaling the cooldowns did was bring about more balance issues.

DPS should not have as strong defensive raid cooldowns as tank and healers do. But should design some offensive raid cooldowns?

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone is aware Ret and Prot do not take EF. The suggested talent to replace EF just didn't have the Ret/Prot effects included and that is what Void was asking.

EZ, since it's called "buff your specials", what about ret gets TV and DS buffed, prot gets consecration and holy wrath and SotR buffed? I bet this is not going to pull prot out of SS, ret might consider.

We are kinda off topic btw

[Freia]

DPS should not have as strong defensive raid cooldowns as tank and healers do. But should design some offensive raid cooldowns?

That statement in no way responded to anything I said in what you quoted. I never mentioned dps cooldowns in the quote. You need to start reading more carefully before responding to posts.

[xiloclipse]

I'm still kind of confused that GC is arguing about the need to balance population across the 3 talent choices, rather than balancing the class as a whole. Like SH was the most viable talent choice, so it got nerfed. EF in 5.2/5.3 was the only viable talent choice, so it was nerfed. I'm at a loss as to why it's done this way, rather than just buffing the other talents, unless devs are actually under the impression that we are overpowered to begin with, and need to be brought down...

I hate to return to other classes, but using monk as an example with a recent change (that may or may not stick). For the most part, everyone takes either xuen, or chi torpedo, and steers clear of RJW entirely. In this case, rather than nerf xuen and torpedo, so that RJW is more appealing, RJW received an excellent buff, and I don't think anyone would say that MW was in a bad place and needed a buff.

I don't understand why this philosophy wasn't applied to EF, and especially why it wasn't applied to SH recently, where we are hurting alot more than live. These are examples where our other talents should have been brought up a notch. From the looks of it, we still require pretty substantial buffs in order to be competitive. I think everyone is at a loss as to how the devs see things so differently.

[jincuteguy]

To follow up on the cleave healing trinket "Thok's Acid-Grooved Tooth" asuming a ra-den type fight this trinket will effectively DOUBLE the healing from HR and Daybreak. The trinket can proc from every single heal in the game and HR heals 30-35 targets on ra-den depending on how many pets are up.

Even when we are not on a ra-den type fight this trinket will be absolutely insane in 25 man raiding. In 10 man on Galakras it was 7% of my healing and 9% of Tonic's healing.

So this trinket is BiS then?

[Kyuuseishu]

EZ, since it's called "buff your specials", what about ret gets TV and DS buffed, prot gets consecration and holy wrath and SotR buffed? I bet this is not going to pull prot out of SS, ret might consider.

We are kinda off topic btw

It's a healing tier, not a DPS increase tier, anything increasing the damage of something has no place in the tier and would become to goto talent for ret over everything else.

[Deleted]

So this trinket is BiS then?

Well its absolutely useless on Garrosh so either they nerfed it or something else was going on on Galakras. Obviously you are more spread on Garrosh but still the healing is incredibly low.

[Lucyrotten]

I was still getting 4-5% from the cleave trinket on the few Garrosh pulls I got in. We didn't get very far so I wouldn't that a number to make any decision on but it didn't do nothing.

[Dubalicious]

Here's some logs from Garrosh testing, the first ~6 attempts I used SS then used EF for the remainder. Randomly used both the cleave trinket (which appeared to be complete garbage) and the multistrike trinket (which was better, but still fairly bad on some attempts) along with the amplification one.

This was using a spirit/mastery setup

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...m/healingDone/

My SS numbers were a bit higher than I expected, but without the "charge" mechanic implemented I found it to be a bit of a nuisance to maintain (doesn't help that I haven't used it in quite a while), so decided to run EF once I got to see what the numbers on SS looked like.

[Deleted]

3.9% healing from multistrike on your longest atempt seems decent.

All 3 healers in my raid bailed on the cleave trinket after a few atempts into phase 2 and it might just have been to early to judge, although I doubt it would make any difference, the damage in phase 3 was not really any different. I definitely want to test it in 25 man but based on Galakras this trinket will get nerfed, big time.

What atempts did you use SS on? Either im too tired or you didnt use SS on any of your decent atempts which makes a comparison impossible.

[Sellinz]

Using the cleave trinket only ended up being 4% of my healing, not a great fight for it but I honestly think its one of our better options.

EDIT: after looking more into logs I think it will realistically be only a situation use, 2.3% over about 10 decently long phase 2 attempts is pretty sketch