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  1. #801
    But is there really any point to having a 30% healing cooldown in addition to Avenging Wrath?

    Seems like boring gameplay to me. /shrug

  2. #802
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tagzz View Post
    The GoAK nerf was definitely needed, although I think this new version is pretty bad. GoAK itself was consistently doing more healing than Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and AG or HTT by themselves (Shaman combined CDs trumps everything obviously). And compared to Tranq and Divine Hymn Pallies were still doing even more healing themselves during their respective CDs. The only downside was that the CD was longer, it wasn't fire and forget, and you had to put a lot of mana into it, however even with the longer CD the amount it healed per min is still more.

    With the new version I think they should definitely drop it to 3 minutes.
    Its a 5 minute cooldown. It should do a good amount of healing! And it only did more than tranq cooldowns in certain situations(usually when the raid was somewhat stacked) and needed to be used in conjunction with our other cooldowns. It wasn't a consistent cooldown. The healing of it was all over the place depending on the fight.

    Agree on lowering the cooldown. They cannot justify a 5minute cooldown anymore.

  3. #803
    Deleted
    Just tried GoAK out on LFR, Norushen, and I did about 5 million healing by using it once. Not really sure if the change is already in effect though, but it was about the same as a druid's tranq.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Arayaa View Post
    I'm seriously hoping that guardian change is just worded really, really, really poorly. Hopefully it is supposed to be 30% splashed rather than 10%? Otherwise that is a horrible cooldown.
    It's not going to be 30% splashed. The reason GoAK was causing so much input lag and the reason it was such a hit and miss cooldown was because it would trigger off of every heal including AoE and then proc a new AoE per target that you healed with your original AoE.

    So let's say I pop Guardian, then I do the following:

    100k heal on self, 50k heal on 5 targets for a total of 350k and 6 events. Then you would have:

    1) Guardian would then duplicate the heal: It would heal me for 100k, and the 5 targets for 50k - 6 events for 350k
    2) Guardian would then proc a new AoE on me: It would heal 5 nearby targets for 10k - another 5 events for 50k
    3) For each of the targets I hit for 50k, Guardian would then heal 5 nearby targets for another 5k - that makes for 25 events for a total of 125k.

    So 6 events became 36 events, and Guardian now turned a 350k cast into a 525k heal. For that matter, notice how the increase gets pretty pitiful beyond the initial heal duplication. It would be somewhat better (as far as I know the splash is uncapped) with more players, but the number of events would increase dramatically. For N targets healed that are stacked together, GoAK would have created N^2 additional events. For a 25m raid, healing 25 targets will cause 625 additional events.

    I could try to do some more basic math on the old guardian but since it's gone and 99.99(repeating)% gone for good, I'm not going to bother.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-08-23 at 10:12 AM.

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merberan View Post
    Just tried GoAK out on LFR, Norushen, and I did about 5 million healing by using it once. Not really sure if the change is already in effect though, but it was about the same as a druid's tranq.
    I don't think the new build is up yet.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Sacred Shield: Good for multiple targets taking predictable damage (read: 1 tank, 2 people with debuff). Worst scaling for 25m.
    Yeah but my point is even with it's "bad scaling" I didn't find my HPS to be affected when I switched between Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield.

  7. #807
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tagzz View Post

    The GoAK nerf was definitely needed, although I think this new version is pretty bad. GoAK itself was consistently doing more healing than Tranq, Divine Hymn, Revival, and AG or HTT by themselves (Shaman combined CDs trumps everything obviously). And compared to Tranq and Divine Hymn Pallies were still doing even more healing themselves during their respective CDs. The only downside was that the CD was longer, it wasn't fire and forget, and you had to put a lot of mana into it, however even with the longer CD the amount it healed per min is still more.
    How was the GoAK nerf needed?

    1)It has almost double the cd of Tranq/Hymn/Revival/Tide so you can't compare it with one use
    2)It has an effective range of 10 yards
    3)It needs constant damage for 15 seconds
    4)It needs you to constantly pump mana intensive healing into it(21.6k Holy Radiances) while the other 4 cds have a cost of under 20k and that's it.

    In most encounters we tested in 25 man i couldn't get more then 2 mil healing from it. Please don't tell me you're talking Malkorok numbers where all it did was actually overheal the green shielded people.

  8. #808
    Why cant they just scrap the whole guardian thing and replace with with raid cooldown similar to style of the 4.0 holy radiance, but with longer cd and more healing? Even if it's past mechanics phase they started fixing spells so it's least what they could do to try to solve it.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    How was the GoAK nerf needed?

    1)It has almost double the cd of Tranq/Hymn/Revival/Tide so you can't compare it with one use
    2)It has an effective range of 10 yards
    3)It needs constant damage for 15 seconds
    4)It needs you to constantly pump mana intensive healing into it(21.6k Holy Radiances) while the other 4 cds have a cost of under 20k and that's it.

    In most encounters we tested in 25 man i couldn't get more then 2 mil healing from it. Please don't tell me you're talking Malkorok numbers where all it did was actually overheal the green shielded people.
    You can't directly compare spells across classes, and you are being particularly fallacious in trying to compare GoAK to Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT. Those are the raid cooldowns for their respective specs; GoAK is not and never was designed to be the Paladin raid cooldown. If you really need to compare Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT, you need to compare them to Devo Aura - that is the Paladin raid cooldown. GoAK is a personal throughput cooldown, more along the lines of Power Infusion/Ascendance/Primal Elementalist/TFT, etc. It's completely ridiculous to expect it to be as strong as primary raid cooldowns.

  10. #810
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    You can't directly compare spells across classes, and you are being particularly fallacious in trying to compare GoAK to Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT. Those are the raid cooldowns for their respective specs; GoAK is not and never was designed to be the Paladin raid cooldown. If you really need to compare Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT, you need to compare them to Devo Aura - that is the Paladin raid cooldown. GoAK is a personal throughput cooldown, more along the lines of Power Infusion/Ascendance/Primal Elementalist/TFT, etc. It's completely ridiculous to expect it to be as strong as primary raid cooldowns.
    I actually can compare it with anything i want.

    We already compared DA with those a billion times and DA still sucks, but DA cannot be buffed without allowing encounter mechanics to be ignored. For DA to prevent any similar to how much Healing Tide heals for very many abilities would need to have their damage vastly increased on 25 man or risk them becoming irrelevant.

    As for comparing GoAK with either of the others,in what way does GoAk resemble either of the others? GoAK represents for both prot and ret their most powerful cd. Its bad enough on the PTR without a stupid nerf like this.

  11. #811
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    You can't directly compare spells across classes, and you are being particularly fallacious in trying to compare GoAK to Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT. Those are the raid cooldowns for their respective specs; GoAK is not and never was designed to be the Paladin raid cooldown. If you really need to compare Tranq/DH/Revival/HTT, you need to compare them to Devo Aura - that is the Paladin raid cooldown. GoAK is a personal throughput cooldown, more along the lines of Power Infusion/Ascendance/Primal Elementalist/TFT, etc. It's completely ridiculous to expect it to be as strong as primary raid cooldowns.
    You mean like you are doing in the Shaman forums? Do us all a favor, Tib, and spare us.

    If GotAK needs to be more in line with the cooldowns you mentioned then it needs a cooldown closer to those mentioned cooldowns as well as buffs to be in line with those cooldowns.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-08-23 at 04:27 PM.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    You mean like you are doing in the Shaman forums? Do us all a favor, Tib, and spare us.

    If GotAK needs to be more in line with the cooldowns you mentioned then it needs a cooldown closer to those mentioned cooldowns.
    Comparing individual abilities across classes is useless - they balance the total package of class vs class - they do not, nor should they balance it so every spell is balanced with every other similar spell. What you are doing is like me saying "Earth Shield heals for less than 1/4 of the total healing of Beacon of Light. Therefore Earth Shield MUST be buffed"

  13. #813
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    You are the one who said GotAK should be compared to those cooldowns, not me.

    Considering GC said no to lowering the cooldown of GotAK to 3minutes because our throughput would have to be lowered, it needs to have the throughput to justify a 5minute cooldown and it doesn't.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-08-23 at 04:43 PM.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Comparing individual abilities across classes is useless - they balance the total package of class vs class
    Class vs class the nerf (if it is a nerf and not just bad tooltipping) wasn't needed either.

  15. #815
    Keyboard Turner Nyler's Avatar
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    I'm not going to whine about a minor nerf like this when shammans got a 30% Rain nerf. Considering paladins are already beating/keeping up with shamans in 10mans no complaints from me!

  16. #816
    Comparatively, this isn't a minor nerf. Also, the HR nerf was justified for a spell of it's nature. I may be going crazy, but this spell is now worse than its live equivalent now?

  17. #817
    Keyboard Turner Nyler's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say its "worse" its just different.

  18. #818
    Live: 100% original heal
    PTR: 30% original heal

    Live: 10% stacking haste buff
    PTR: 10% base haste buff

    Worse or different?

    Edit: Also duration of 30 vs 15 seconds.
    Last edited by monikasun88; 2013-08-23 at 06:04 PM.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    Live: 100% original heal
    PTR: 30% original heal

    Live: 10% stacking haste buff
    PTR: 10% base haste buff

    Worse or different?
    Well it does interact with other heals rather than single target heals, but 30% is too low if its just an additive amount to the healing we are doing esp since you can achieve the same effect with other CD's.

    Live and current PTR are both bad.

  20. #820
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    It also disappeared after 5 single target heals.

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