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  1. #1

    60 wipes on Heroic Horridon 10 progression, what are we doing wrong?

    Logs from last night:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rdg4915i0qqjht7v/

    (I am the prot pally)

    We can pretty consistently kill Jalak, but things go downhill fast after he dies. Our warrior tank goes down almost instantly whenever she is tanking enraged Horridon. The plan is for me to BoP her at 3-4 stacks of Triple Puncture but she is dead before that. I'm not sure if the issue is her not timing her active mitigation and cooldowns correctly or if she's just not getting enough heals/absorbs from our 2 healers (who are dealing with spirits at this point). Any advice and feedback would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by hnoseguard View Post
    Logs from last night:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rdg4915i0qqjht7v/

    (I am the prot pally)

    We can pretty consistently kill Jalak, but things go downhill fast after he dies. Our warrior tank goes down almost instantly whenever she is tanking enraged Horridon. The plan is for me to BoP her at 3-4 stacks of Triple Puncture but she is dead before that. I'm not sure if the issue is her not timing her active mitigation and cooldowns correctly or if she's just not getting enough heals/absorbs from our 2 healers (who are dealing with spirits at this point). Any advice and feedback would be appreciated.
    Use 3 healers. Chain defensive CDs once enrage starts. First tank dies. Second tank picks up boss. Kill boss. We tried it with 2 healers and were having lots of trouble. Switched to 3 and downed it quickly. We may have better luck as we have 2*resto druid 1*hpally 1*prot pally so we have a lot of CDs.

    And if you are worried about DPS, get another healer and have your priest smite spam on Horridon the whole fight while the other two do the normal healing.

    Signature Created by Sonridor

  3. #3
    At least one of your healers needs to be spam healing the Horridon tank just before the enrage happens and just before a taunt exchange. The alternative to that would be to pop a tank CD to account for healer lag time.

    The only thing I think your warrior could change would be to have a Shield Barrier ready for the Triple Puncture so she can at least cancel one of the hits for the Triple Puncture. The real killer is when you get melee hits surrounding the Triple Puncture and don't avoid any of them. Timing a full strength Shield Barrier can help with that.

  4. #4
    Healers need to spam tank nonstop - he/she is the only one tanking damage in that phase. Try to set rotation for external CD's.
    Why you want to BoP her instead of yourself? Pally tank is the best one for this fight.

  5. #5
    make sure healers are spamming tank non stop.
    don't need any aoe healing during the last phase (besides right before a roar if one goes out and not everyone is topped off)
    make sure the warrior tank has a 60 rage shield barrier right before the triple puncture to help alleviate a lot of damage

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolstyj View Post
    Why you want to BoP her instead of yourself? Pally tank is the best one for this fight.
    I use divine shield and cancel aura macro to clear myself at 4 stacks, when I get back up to 4 stacks, she taunts as she should have some CDs available. I could try tanking longer / higher stacks until Forbearance wears off then have pally healer BoP me and cancel aura.

  7. #7
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by hnoseguard View Post
    We can pretty consistently kill Jalak, but things go downhill fast after he dies. Our warrior tank goes down almost instantly whenever she is tanking enraged Horridon. The plan is for me to BoP her at 3-4 stacks of Triple Puncture but she is dead before that. I'm not sure if the issue is her not timing her active mitigation and cooldowns correctly or if she's just not getting enough heals/absorbs from our 2 healers (who are dealing with spirits at this point). Any advice and feedback would be appreciated.
    I checked the last 2 tries, does she know what shield barrier is ?
    Its not a question of timing it, she's not using her AM at all...
    19 minutes, 2 shield barrier used. 17,5% block uptime.

    She's using IV instead of ER.
    If she aint saving BR for LS, she should macro it to something.
    Her defensive usage, sw, ls, rc, demo shout etc is acceptable for farm but not progression imo.
    she should use reck/banner atleast twice as often, she's not using her lvl 90 talent at all
    She also appears to be missing hit cap.

    Over 647 seconds, you can use shield slam 107 times exluding SnB procs, she hit it 58 times, its veeeeery low... (Similar with revenge)
    She had 23 ultimatum procs but used heroic strike / cleave 54 times, its a huge waste of rage and is direct correlation to her poor survivability. 31*30= 930 rage. Or 15,5 shield blocks for a whooping 93 second uptime......

    -------
    Why dont you just reset yourself, let her intervene and just dps ?
    But if you really want her to tank, she needs to mitigate triple puncture and the following insta melee hits that comes after a cast (triple puncture, swipe).
    Either do it with a 60 rage barrier, or cast shieldblock + 20 rage barrier 1 second before triple puncture.
    Also tell her to atleast pop a cooldown for the tank swap so healers get time to switch the spam (they should never stop casting on the one tanking horridon).
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-07-29 at 04:31 PM.

  8. #8
    As a prot paladin, you can stay on Horridon for the entire fight including the burn phase. I tend to clear TP stacks around 10-12 which (if timed properly) will allow you to clear once more right before Jalak goes down. Once Horridon enrages, make sure you have a cooldown on you 100% of the time. You can chain GoAK and AD right after each other and then work with your Priest and Pally to cover you afterwards.

    Despite these cooldowns, you will most likely still die. Have your warrior ready to pick him up when you do and make sure he's rolling his cooldowns as well. Having a brez up will help you just in case he dies as well, but Horridon should be low enough at this point.

    As a side note, your ShoR and SS uptimes are a tad low. Not sure what your gear looks like but your ShoR should be at least 45-50% (you were at 36%) and your SS should be as close to 100% as possible (yours was 65%).

  9. #9
    I'd pretty much agree that you, the prot paladin, should attempt to hold onto Horridon for most of the last phase. Here's how: When Jalak hits 10%, use Holy Avenger. This will give you 20+ seconds of 40-50% damage reduction. After that, pop AD and DP. After that, pop GoAK. After that, pop an armor pot and start getting externals rotated on you. Be HoPing off your stacks regularly during this.

    After that, have your warrior tank taunt WITH A COOLDOWN UP! No one should EVER be tanking Horridon without actual cooldowns up. Active mitigation, while great, is not going to keep a warrior alive. Once her cooldowns expire, use your Hand of Sacrifice on her. When it expires, use it again (you have two, after all, right?). Boss will be dead by then. If not, you can taunt back with 5 Holy Power banked, pop two ShoRs and then use DP again while using ShoRs for each Triple Puncture.

    edit: Oh yeah, and make sure your healers know that the ONLY people they are allowed to heal during the burn phase are the tanks. Dire Call will not kill anyone that's at full health and ground AOE heals and/or your battle healer will be enough to top off the raid between each Dire Call. If your healers are switching to the raid after Dire Call, they're killing your tanks.

    Also, if you've been 2-healing it, continue to do so. If you can make it to the burn phase with 2 heals, you can kill it with 2 heals.

    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    4 stacks is pretty low, I regularly go up to 7-8, when we had a holydin, max i've taken is 16 stacks, the more stacks, the more sbar scales
    Just make another cancelaura for hand of protection ? I use it on the same keybind used to cast it.
    4 stacks is pretty low... during the door phases. 7-8 stacks during the burn phase is extremely high and pretty much guaranteed to get a tank killed during progression. Remember, these guys haven't killed Horridon yet and that kind of advice is only going to hurt them. I kind of imagine you meant your comment for pre-burn phase, which is fine, but I don't think the OP was referring to that part of the fight with his Divine Shield comment.

  10. #10
    We had trouble with this as prot pally / blood dk until we had our prot pally just tank horridon AND jalak, and then tank horridon all the way to dead as well. Tank swaps just meant our tanks got gibbed before vengeance could stack or healers could react, and prot paladins are so strong at this anyway.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    4 stacks is pretty low... during the door phases. 7-8 stacks during the burn phase is extremely high and pretty much guaranteed to get a tank killed during progression. Remember, these guys haven't killed Horridon yet and that kind of advice is only going to hurt them.
    Ye, fair enough, tend to forget how rough it can be during progression :-/
    Removed it from my op.
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-07-29 at 04:31 PM.

  12. #12
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hnoseguard View Post
    Logs from last night:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rdg4915i0qqjht7v/

    (I am the prot pally)

    We can pretty consistently kill Jalak, but things go downhill fast after he dies. Our warrior tank goes down almost instantly whenever she is tanking enraged Horridon. The plan is for me to BoP her at 3-4 stacks of Triple Puncture but she is dead before that. I'm not sure if the issue is her not timing her active mitigation and cooldowns correctly or if she's just not getting enough heals/absorbs from our 2 healers (who are dealing with spirits at this point). Any advice and feedback would be appreciated.

    We have a very similar setup and I must ask how do you find it having the pallie on adds and the war on horridon all fight? Currently we are doing hte opposite nad have myself on adds and pallie on horridon but looking at your parse I think that pallie on adds might be a nice way to go!

    The war seems to have things topsy turvy for war tank dps! I will be the first to admit during progress I'm not stellar at all aspects of my rotation (looking at you demo shout uptime during progress) however the one thing that you should never EVER see is heroic strike # being higher than ultimatum procs! The odd slip up here or thre I understnd but the math is pretty straight forward cast heroic strike on ultimatum procs and other than that shelf the ability. You get more dmg out o thta rage by casting shield blok and then using shield slam with the glyph of heavy repercusions! I mean just look at the avg dmg from each ability non crit over your night :

    Shield slam : 298K
    Heroic strike 69k
    Now you may say "were not having problems with dps its surviving the end. However if your prot war is on horridon the entire fight and Horridon is taking + dmg after you slam his ass into the wall then your war is inadvertently making the fight at the end where you are dieing longer by not pumping out the dmg they could over the entire fight.

    305 heroic strikes cast , 25 cleaves for the night but only 120 ultimatum procs. That was 210 abilities cast at full rage that yielded a fraction of the dmg they could have by otherwise using shield block (that would have mitigated more dmg) and shield slam!

    3 shield barriers for the night I just can't understand! Right as triple puncture is about to go off get up a nice S.barrier specially when Horridon is enraged as you cannot block triple puncture get up s.barrier and absorb the damage.

    Another thing is if you have on use trinkets... use them! only 4 uses of the zandalary trinet all night.

    I took the time right as Horridon enrages and set the parse to just this point.
    This really demostrates what happens as she dies
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...tab-auras-cast

    As you can see shiled wall was used, last stand was used, demo shout was used... so far everythign looks good... but then you look at shield block and only 2.. you look at shield barrier and there are none, and then you look at ultimatum and there are 3 procs but heroic strike was used 11 times in that time frame. Thus there was no Rage due to eating it all up with heroic strike to shield barrier the 2 hits and a 429 K triple puncture from horridon.. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...259#tab-deaths
    Basically they traded there survivability for a couple hits of 90k heroic strikes.


    It looks allot like us to be honest! A couple of little things all adding up and causing you to not get the W.

    Hope some of what I posted helps... now off to review my logs and fix my shit becuase by all means I was far from good on my mitigation of adds >.<

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hnoseguard View Post
    Logs from last night:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rdg4915i0qqjht7v/

    (I am the prot pally)

    We can pretty consistently kill Jalak, but things go downhill fast after he dies. Our warrior tank goes down almost instantly whenever she is tanking enraged Horridon. The plan is for me to BoP her at 3-4 stacks of Triple Puncture but she is dead before that. I'm not sure if the issue is her not timing her active mitigation and cooldowns correctly or if she's just not getting enough heals/absorbs from our 2 healers (who are dealing with spirits at this point). Any advice and feedback would be appreciated.
    Post Jalak

    1. Your Warrior Tank Needs to do better with Active Mitigation and pressing buttons as others have mentioned. You can help by throwing a Veng buffed sacred shield on them and chain some hand of sacrifices. At 4 stacks they need to be HoPd by the Holydin until you can be HoPd and take it back.

    2. Once jalak is dead there is no reason to stay stacked up and it is actually easier to continuously move around the boss DPS/healing then it is to stand still and press your macro once every ~ 3 seconds to deal with direhorn. This makes the burn on Horridon faster and one less thing to worry about.

    3. Have shaman AG the Direcall to bring the raid back up afterward and healer focus on tanks. You can DA the second one if you get one.

    Good luck on your next attempts

    Disc should be full bore atonement at this point and only shielding/pain supping the tank on horridon.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal DaveReadycheck's Avatar
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    We 2 heal and ignore Jalak. Not checked your logs but would this be an option? If your clearing all the doors then your past the hard bit. Is your Cres always blown by this point?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveReadycheck View Post
    We 2 heal and ignore Jalak. Not checked your logs but would this be an option? If your clearing all the doors then your past the hard bit. Is your Cres always blown by this point?
    This is not an option for any group still progressing on Heroic Horridon. If you don't kill Jalak, he will wipe you way too fast.

    I honestly don't get why people are providing suggestions that only apply to guilds that have had many heroics on farm for a while. This is a thread about progression heroic Horridon. If you're going to provide advice, think back to when you were still learning the fight. There's no way you ignored Jalak on your first several kills.

  16. #16
    From a warrior tank point of view:

    The most deadly part of the enrage phase is the melee swings since they are unpredictable. I would strongly prioritize having shield block up covering the melee swings both before and after the triple puncture. If you have rage for a small barrier, that's an added bonus. The melee hits do just as much damage as punctures 1 and 2, so there's not point in eating them just to soak the puncture with a barrier. A single puncture between blocked melee attacks will not kill you if healers are somewhat good at what they are doing. Start using cooldowns for punctures 3 (demo) and 4 (shield wall) and save last stand as an oh-shit button. I can't stress the importance of shield block enough for the enrage part since it's the massive and fast melee swings that kill you, not the very predictable punctures. Always swap at 4 stacks at latest.

  17. #17
    You really think 60 wipes is a lot on Horridon? It took us 124 on week 2 to kill him, and lots of frustration.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Cherrypowdah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    This is not an option for any group still progressing on Heroic Horridon. If you don't kill Jalak, he will wipe you way too fast.

    I honestly don't get why people are providing suggestions that only apply to guilds that have had many heroics on farm for a while. This is a thread about progression heroic Horridon. If you're going to provide advice, think back to when you were still learning the fight. There's no way you ignored Jalak on your first several kills.
    Untrue, if your tank's gear/skill sucks, chain disarms on jalak and burst horridon down assuming everyone is alive at this stage especially if you have dps with execute abilities like pretty much everyone does, Jalak kindof is a trap similar to large anima golems on animus and red phase on ra-den.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherrypowdah View Post
    Untrue, if your tank's gear/skill sucks, chain disarms on jalak and burst horridon down assuming everyone is alive at this stage especially if you have dps with execute abilities like pretty much everyone does, Jalak kindof is a trap similar to large anima golems on animus and red phase on ra-den.
    They have 1 class that can actually disarm, which is the warrior tank who dies, even ignoring that, our disarm is 1 min cd...
    The trap is not killing jalak

  20. #20
    Spending enough time to wipe 60 times is what you're doing wrong. Do something else.
    "It's clear this is another bash Apple thread. Such things are not conducive to a good discussion."

    WRONG! Those are the BEST discussions!

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