Final Showdown. Tinkerer VS Demon Hunter

[Teriz]

Mechanically wise, alot of classes already play similar to another. A technology based one would simply be no different. It would have its own "spell color and animation" but, no matter how many times you say Heal, it is the same as healing touch, healing wave, etc. A dot is a dot. A hot is a hot. etc. Can they make new playstyles? yes, easily, but mechanics do not change.

Not necessarily. For starters, a technology class would utilize the mechanical type. I don't think any class in the game uses mechanical types. An example of a mechanical would be the ability to turn yourself into a Mechanical entity for X seconds. That comes from the Tinker hero class btw. Mechanical include immunities to certain status effects, the ability heal through repairing, and the inability to heal through healing magic. Viola! A completely new class mechanic.

Also it would be a class that can do physical range, yet be completely different from Hunters.

The rest really depends on how they're implemented, however, their potential for adding something new to the game is quite high. Look at Monks with melee healing. By their very nature, Monks added something new to the game. A technology class would be no different.

[Baphomette]

Needless to say, Bard makes more sense than Demon Hunter or Tinker. Most other ideas would too.

DH isn't a separate class, it's just a person who hunts demons. We will all be demon hunters next expansion.

[Teriz]

Needless to say, Bard makes more sense than Demon Hunter or Tinker. Most other ideas would too.

Since the Bard presence in the Warcraft universe is limited to a couple of NPCs that do absolutely nothing, I don't see how you could come to that conclusion.

[Thimagryn]

... Monk.

[Skayth]

Not necessarily. For starters, a technology class would utilize the mechanical type. I don't think any class in the game uses mechanical types. An example of a mechanical would be the ability to turn yourself into a Mechanical entity for X seconds. That comes from the Tinker hero class btw. Mechanical include immunities to certain status effects, the ability heal through repairing, and the inability to heal through healing magic. Viola! A completely new class mechanic.

Also it would be a class that can do physical range, yet be completely different from Hunters.

The rest really depends on how they're implemented, however, their potential for adding something new to the game is quite high. Look at Monks with melee healing. By their very nature, Monks added something new to the game. A technology class would be no different.

To start, ill start with monks. Fistweavers are basically Smite healers. Nothing new, as your healing while doing damage. Your still doing mediocre damage and your healing for a nice amount, but, like smite healing, its a gimmick rarely ever happens in raids.

They dont need to add a "physical" range, it could entirely be magical base range, using weapons. Even hunters are not full Physical. Yet, even though your class design has them as range, tinkers from wc3 are not. That is simply expanding on it. (similar to how I expand to dh range). In other games, are they able to be range? Yes, but this is wow we are talking about, not DnD.

Yes, they could, but they wont. Just like how they stopped meta cannot be banished or turn evil now, or the Forsakened unable to be turned evil. While, in itself, it would be fun, but the ingame is not, as it could bypass boss abilities or be op in pvp. What would they do? Simply make it a form. See the skygolem? That is how it would be in game, walking around something like that, but able to be targeted by everything. Now could they give it a fear/w.e. break, like Dks have? sure, but it would be hit by something to offset its balance, like dks can be turned evil if they use lichbourne.

[Balir]

Maybe if they redesign rogues, 1spec is an ass/sub tree,
1 is ranged (need another bow class) and the 3rd = demon hunter spec?

[Wyrt]

Screw those emo bastards, I want a tinker. Do we really need another emo class anyway?

[Teriz]

... Monk.

Brewmasters?
Scarlet Crusade Monks?
Mana Tomb Monks?

[Thimagryn]

Since the Bard Monk presence in the Warcraft universe is limited to a couple of NPCs that do absolutely nothing, I don't see how you could come to that conclusion.

Brewmasters?
Scarlet Crusade Monks?
Mana Tomb Monks?

Just gonna let you read it yourself, see if you can come to your own conclusion here.

[Skayth]

Maybe if they redesign rogues, 1spec is an ass/sub tree,
1 is ranged (need another bow class) and the 3rd = demon hunter spec?

No offense, but rogues are close to dhs as warriors are, and that is simply to duel wield. Enhance Shamans have a more of chance to being dhs than rogues, simply because they wield magic while they play and duel wield. Rogue use no real magic, as their class is about tricks, sneaking, bleeds, poisons, and stuns. The closest they have is too hope for a warden blend. I do hope they can use a bow though, but that might be pushing the overhaul, as it is not going to major at all, simply change up how the specs play.

[Teriz]

To start, ill start with monks. Fistweavers are basically Smite healers. Nothing new, as your healing while doing damage. Your still doing mediocre damage and your healing for a nice amount, but, like smite healing, its a gimmick rarely ever happens in raids.

Smite healing requires a casted spell. Fistweaving is done through melee attacks. And yes, Eminence healing is a significant portion of Monk heals in raids.

They dont need to add a "physical" range, it could entirely be magical base range, using weapons. Even hunters are not full Physical. Yet, even though your class design has them as range, tinkers from wc3 are not. That is simply expanding on it. (similar to how I expand to dh range). In other games, are they able to be range? Yes, but this is wow we are talking about, not DnD.

Tinkers could fire missiles at targets. That is physical range. Additionally, there are examples of Tinkers in WoW with guns. There are no examples of Demon Hunters with bows or guns in any Warcraft game.

Yes, they could, but they wont. Just like how they stopped meta cannot be banished or turn evil now, or the Forsakened unable to be turned evil. While, in itself, it would be fun, but the ingame is not, as it could bypass boss abilities or be op in pvp. What would they do? Simply make it a form. See the skygolem? That is how it would be in game, walking around something like that, but able to be targeted by everything. Now could they give it a fear/w.e. break, like Dks have? sure, but it would be hit by something to offset its balance, like dks can be turned evil if they use lichbourne.

I think the fact that you can't be healed through conventional means is a very strong weakness versus its strengths.

[Bullettime]

The problem again with Demon Hunters is, with any class, you have to ask a few questions about their addition to the game such as
-What aesthetic niche do they provide to the game?
-What playstyle niche do they provide to the game?
-What loot itemization would they use?
-What type of skill sets do they have?
-What would be their three specializations?

And when you break that down, the Demon Hunter falls apart.

A copy paste from earlier in the thread as it's relevant again with the renewed arguments.

"Tinker has a lot more variety in what it can be. Support spec they want to add? Tinker can do it. Healer? Can do it. Tank? Can do it. And it can even be a melee or ranged DPS. They have a lot of possibilities. Demon Hunters would basically be restricted to two melee DPS specs and a Demonology ripoff with Metamorphosis tanking.

Tinkers also can fill an item niche not covered right now by adding another user of Intellect and Agility Mail and can use ranged weapons. A Demon Hunter would be yet another leather wearing melee combatant fighting Monks, Druids, and Rogues for a spot.

It has an aesthetic niche we don't have in the game. A Demon Hunter would just blend the aspects of a Rogue and Warlock together in their theme while Tinker would have an all new engineering feel.

Demon Hunters as stated before would be just another leather melee combatant which we don't need more of currently. The core parts of its kit are also part of other classes currently. Demonology Warlocks have Demonic Fury with Metamorphosis and Immolation Aura. Rogues have Evasion. Mana Burn was part of the Priest kit and removed."

Lore can be twisted and shaped however Blizzard decides to so it's not lore hurting the Demon Hunter. It's that the Demon Hunter has no niche that isn't currently available, which is what Blizzard has stated they look for when adding new classes. Death Knights covered magical runes, a spell wielding heavy armor unit, and necromancy wrapped up into one thematically cohesive class. Monks provided us with the unarmed (visually) melee combatant using martial arts. This wasn't previously in the game. Everything a Demon Hunter would bring to the game is already in the game through other classes. It would just be tacked on to be tacked on and would have a lot of redundant and overlapping kit mechanics with other specs in the game such as with Demonology Warlocks. Dark Apotheosis basically IS a Demon Hunter tank for a short time.

[Skayth]

Smite healing requires a casted spell. Fistweaving is done through melee attacks. And yes, Eminence healing is a significant portion of Monk heals in raids.

Tinkers could fire missiles at targets. That is physical range. Additionally, there are examples of Tinkers in WoW with guns. There are no examples of Demon Hunters with bows or guns in any Warcraft game.

I think the fact that you can't be healed through conventional means is a very strong weakness versus its strengths.

The first part was to simply show, that damage to heal has been done. Not trying to point out that if you are fistweaving you are doing it wrong, but there are a few fights where it is good, just like smite healing. Damaging to heal is simply nothing to new.

Firing missiles is not the same a ranged weapons, and the missiles would still have fire damage given to them, like explosive shot. I have not seen any tinker with guns. If you are talking about random npcs, like booty bay bruisers, those are not tinkers. Gnomergan? deranged leapers built off the vanilla model of hunters, like many npcs were.

That should not be given then, as it far to overpowered. A healing discrepancy is nothing in game, when you have absorbs and everything else.

[Volitar]

WTB alchemy based class.

thanks!

[Lochton]

WTB alchemy based class.

thanks!

That would basicly be a specc in the Tinker too.

[Skayth]

That would basicly be a specc in the Tinker too.

Why would it be specced into tinker?
Alchemy can easily go full into its own class. Think, playing Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Moktov cocktails, poison bombs. Plenty of other things a mad alchemist can think of.

the reason why so many people say this, is because of Teriz class concept. While it is nice, people forget that Alchemy can, itself, be its own Class, away from a tinker spec

[Thimagryn]

The problem again with Demon Hunters is, with any class, you have to ask a few questions about their addition to the game such as
-What aesthetic niche do they provide to the game?
-What playstyle niche do they provide to the game?
-What loot itemization would they use?
-What type of skill sets do they have?
-What would be their three specializations?

And when you break that down, the Demon Hunter falls apart.

None of that exists yet. Therefore, you can't break it down.

I mean realistically, Demon Hunter gameplay doesn't exist. It's not 'Rogue and Warlock gameplay', because that's what Rogues and Warlocks are. Death Knights don't have 'Warrior and Paladin gameplay'. Death Knights play like... Death Knights. How would Demon Hunters play? Like Demon Hunters.

Demon Hunters as stated before would be just another leather melee combatant which we don't need more of currently.

That's a case against 'another leather melee combatant', not a Demon Hunter. No one said that's what they will be only. There's nothing that says "Tinker can heal and tank" either, it's just a definition people are placing on a class that doesn't exist yet.

Also the idea of a 'Niche' is very loose. I mean, Monks fill the "Beer and Mists" niche that was left unfulfilled, right?

[Teriz]

The first part was to simply show, that damage to heal has been done. Not trying to point out that if you are fistweaving you are doing it wrong, but there are a few fights where it is good, just like smite healing. Damaging to heal is simply nothing to new.

But Melee healing is. Take a look at my Runemaster thread where I predicted its inclusion. People in that thread considered the idea of a Melee healer to be crazy, and OP. Yet here we are.

Firing missiles is not the same a ranged weapons, and the missiles would still have fire damage given to them, like explosive shot. I have not seen any tinker with guns. If you are talking about random npcs, like booty bay bruisers, those are not tinkers. Gnomergan? deranged leapers built off the vanilla model of hunters, like many npcs were.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=13601#abilities

That should not be given then, as it far to overpowered. A healing discrepancy is nothing in game, when you have absorbs and everything else.

Keep in mind that the debate wasn't whether or not such an ability would be balanced. The discussion was whether or not it would be something new and different. A class that can turn itself mechanical is something new and different (and cool).

[Wyrt]

WTB alchemy based class.

thanks!

That would be fun too.

For science!

[Prancing Minstrel]

Why would it be specced into tinker?
Alchemy can easily go full into its own class. Think, playing Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Moktov cocktails, poison bombs. Plenty of other things a mad alchemist can think of.

the reason why so many people say this, is because of Teriz class concept. While it is nice, people forget that Alchemy can, itself, be its own Class, away from a tinker spec

Explosives are tinker territory, I agree that alchemy would be wrapped into tinkers, possibly as a healing spec. Alchemy doesn't have quite the breadth of technology. It's the logical extension of a science-based class.