1. #1

    Low DPS on horridon 10 man

    I'm using MFD right now and I pretty much get out an MFD on each focus target immediately followed by a rupture. If more then 2 targets are in an area I'll envenom and immediately FoK to spread the poisons. I've got the lead assist job, so all the DPS is essentially supposed to be on my target. I should be doing okay damage based on how quickly we move through targets but I'm just not. This rogue is my alt, and I've got pretty limited raid experience, but I was looking for your tips on more effectively DPSing the fight.

    Logs (whole raid):
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/opdi9dwwitjvj2f1/
    Armory:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...g%C3%A9/simple

  2. #2
    Firstly, I wouldn't do the "assist off one person" thing. Most people should be multidotting and cleaving, including yourself, to be most effective. Just mark targets that should be focused.

    Up to where you died on your longest attempt (~7m):

    • You only have 81% uptime, so what are you doing when you're not hitting anything 19% of the time? You only used Sprint once and ShS once, so mobility was available if it was necessary.
    • You only used Vendetta once, and you only got 17.5s of it (should be 4, ideally 30s ea).
    • You only used SB once (should be 2).
    • You used MfD 10 times, but uptime was only 26.6%; you can and should use it a lot more.
    • You let SnD drop twice and uptime was only 57.7% (should be very near 100% and never drop). That's really, really, really low.
    • Rupture uptime was only 54.1% (should be as close to 100% as possible).

    So, hit things, use your cooldowns, and maintain SnD and Rupt. I would almost say you DCed for a few minutes, but you did some damage to every add.

  3. #3
    Vendetta is a 30 second damage buff to a single target, but if the target dies before the 30 seconds is expended won't that waste the remaining duration?

    EDIT: Also I've been mainly using MFD to get a 5pt rupture rolling on a target, but some of the targets die too quickly to even use half the duration. Should I instead be using envenom if I know they'll get focused down quickly and save long ruptures for the double elite drop before dino (since those two often take much longer to kill)?
    Last edited by hatchetman240; 2013-07-29 at 06:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Unlike Squirl, your DPS is not the primary problem I see. To be honest, some of the problems he pointed out (Rupture uptime being low, CD usage, and MfD usage) are only real problems on H Horridon and Patchwerk-style fights.

    The couple of things you should tweak:
    To begin with, Assassination does NOT benefit from targets going down quickly. Your poisons are your primary source of damage, and you won't get many poison ticks when a target dies quickly.
    Next, you shouldn't FoK with 3 targets. I'd hope this one is self-explanatory.

    Melee DPS are usually bad on Horridon to begin with, so it's kind of pointless to look at what Melee DPS could be doing better; that's why I give some lee-way about things like SND uptime and Rupture uptime on this fight. My advice would be to use Glyph of Deadly Momentum, since you have a better shot at keeping SND up that way (melee DPS are usually the ones to finish off an add when it's anything other than the last door).

    And finally, if you've come here asking for tips about "more effectively DPSing the fight", understand that your DPS is not the only problem in this raid.
    I'd look more at your warlock, who's scum-bagging Havoc and Chaos Bolts onto the boss when he could be using those on adds. Fact of the matter is, as much boss damage Craniopulsar is getting from doing that, the raid would get way more boss uptime if he was doing that to the adds instead.

    EDIT: MFD should be used as a way to get Rupture up on "bigger" adds (Venom Priests, Frozen Warlords), and Envenom on smaller adds.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  5. #5
    LOL about Cran. He's honestly my best raider on my main team (you can see him on the tue/wed logs on his hunter). Like anyone who loves DPS, he loves big numbers; but he is the kind of guy who will do whatever is asked of him. I'll call him out on his overt DPS cheese.

    I'm the raid lead, so they're technically all "my problem". I try to lead by example though, and I wanted to make sure I'm getting some critique on myself from people before I point out flaws for others. This particular group of players is newly formed for raiding on that day/time, and we had several people filling in for us.

    Now back to fixing me on my rogue. Previously I thought I understood envenom got spread through FoK, but it apparently doesn't. Envenom raises your odds of applying deadly poison, and when you FoK you increase your chances of applying DP to all targets by the same amount, which is why we envenom ==> FoK on AOE. Right? So when the little adds come out, I typically drop an envenom on the first guy and FoK to get DP up on both. This is not beneficial to me?
    Last edited by hatchetman240; 2013-07-29 at 06:58 PM.

  6. #6
    DPS is definitely not the primary problem, but that's the topic. If you want to actually kill the boss, people need to stop standing in things, start interrupting things, and your tanks need to pick up adds faster (or others need to stop standing where adds jump down). Those things were the cause of all your wipes. If you want more specific advice on this, I would post in Raids and Dungeons.

    I do think doing the best DPS you can always makes a fight easier though. I'm not sure if you or Carp understand how much of our damage is in SnD, Rupt, and CDs (and not to mention just hitting things rather than doing nothing 19% of the time). Rogues are not inherently bad on Horridon; it just takes more management than other fights.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hatchetman240 View Post
    Envenom raises your odds of applying deadly poison, and when you FoK you increase your chances of applying DP to all targets by the same amount, which is why we envenom ==> FoK on AOE. Right? So when the little adds come out, I typically drop an envenom on the first guy and FoK to get DP up on both. This is not beneficial to me?
    No. With low numbers of targets, you should Rupt multidot. This will apply DP to all of them while you Rupt them, giving you additional energy and doing a lot more damage than DP alone with VW. When there are a lot of adds out (~6; you're doing something wrong if there are ever that many out on Horridon), then FoK becomes better.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    DPS is definitely not the primary problem, but that's the topic. If you want to actually kill the boss, people need to stop standing in things, start interrupting things, and your tanks need to pick up adds faster (or others need to stop standing where adds jump down). Those things were the cause of all your wipes. If you want more specific advice on this, I would post in Raids and Dungeons.
    I'd just like to echo this. If you're after non-rogue tactical advice, see that forum, since you'll hear from a LOT more people interested in full raid encounter theory than primarily a rogue perspective on it. Plenty of us raidlead too, or at least are bright enough to follow what's happening, but most of us will always have the "rogue eye" to some degree.

    Multi-rupturing serves a lot of functions at the same time - just make sure you keep SnD active around that if you find you're not having time to envenom. If adds are really under control, get DP/rup up on Horridon as well - the damage will matter later. I'm not sure just how short a time mobs need to live to make envenom superior to rupture, but if adds are dying at different times consistently, ruptures bonus with VW energy return on death can really keep you running "on full" for a longer time than MfD envenoms. I'd probably just categorize it as "will die" -> rupture and "DIE NOW" (few seconds) -> envenom.

    On DP application - FoK's chance to apply is the same as any other weapon attack; auto-attacks are far more efficient for applying it if you can get away with it, since they don't cost energy, and FoK is a terrible CP generator. The only thing that makes it worthwhile is the poison application to several/many targets - in any situation where you can easily manage your rupture rolls and DP without FoK (this should be like 4-5 targets), you're better off not using FoK at all. It takes a while for the instant DP procs and advantage to DP management to catch up.

  8. #8
    Or just go combat. With the same ilvl than you I used to never drop below 140k dps on that boss, only hitting horridon when adds are dead.

  9. #9
    When you've solved the sitting in the sand, not kicking and licking frozen orbs problems, there is a tip that will improve your DPS. It's very logical but I've seen a lot of person not using it.
    MfD small adds, not big trolls. Small adds die quickly, so you can use 4 MfD before the big one is dead. Just put a 2-3 CP Rupture on the big ones and use MfD when they drop below 20%.

  10. #10
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    England
    Posts
    140
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaluna View Post
    MfD small adds, not big trolls.
    This is the most effective method in my personal experience with MfD. Dropping 5CP rutpures on "lesser adds" lets you spread your dots easier, and returns you with an extremely beneficial energy return when the add will die naturally. Use FoK as a filler with 5-6+ adds in range, and otherwise just continue multi-rupturing and using envenom on the kill target. Rinsing and repeating this, and only making sure you MfD War God jalak before burn phase is a very viable strategy for this talent choice.

    On the flipside, i would still recommend Anticipation > MfD. Anticipation just gives so much more room for error and allows a much tidier rotation with mutilate. If you're comfortable managing your CP's and planned target switching with redirect, i would definitely advise taking Anticipation. In addition to that, it makes the boss burning phase a much more friendly phase (depending of course, on how long it takes your group).
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-07-31 at 02:04 AM. Reason: clarified/removed offensive terminology

  11. #11
    Flipflop, in regards to anticipation>MfD I look at a strict cost benefit by asking myself this question: "Will MfD generate more combo points than I would normally lose by accidentally going over 5CPs?" and the answer is sometimes no.

    On Horridon I generate more combo points on the first door than I will likely lose on the entire burn phase for horridon + Jalak. Considering there are 4 doors, that heavily errs to the side of MfD for more damage.

    Runningman: I actually have a couple of combat weapons (516/502) would I be able to get the good DPS without reforge? Do you have the 4pc?
    Last edited by hatchetman240; 2013-07-30 at 01:22 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Runningman View Post
    Or just go combat. With the same ilvl than you I used to never drop below 140k dps on that boss, only hitting horridon when adds are dead.
    i was thinking this, too.

    you're going to get more use out of cleaving adds as combat with blade flurry than you are out of trying to use assassination to cleave. when it's just the boss, yeah, combat will drop slightly behind where assassination would be, but by that point, it doesn't even matter.

  13. #13
    High Overlord flimflop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    England
    Posts
    140
    Quote Originally Posted by hatchetman240 View Post
    Flipflop, in regards to anticipation>MfD I look at a strict cost benefit by asking myself this question: "Will MfD generate more combo points than I would normally lose by accidentally going over 5CPs?" and the answer is sometimes no.
    I have to disagree with this in almost every scenario - Particularly considering you have 2 warlocks and 2 hunters in your 10man setup who should both be extremely good at dispatching of adds where you may lack strength.

    With optimal use of MfD you're looking at what; 15, possibly 20 if you're lucky extra CP's per door? All of which would have to be used on the weakest adds to get MfD back off cooldown in time. As an additional point, if your rupturing the weakest adds it isn't the most effective dps you can produce. It may be the highest until burn phase, but it isn't on the primary kill targets which could be an issue for you as a 'lead assist'.

    If we assume all your finishers were with 5 CP, you would've wasted ~45 CP with mutilates at 4 CP (more with seal fate procs counted) on your longest attempt. Realistically this is probably around the same amount you will "gain" with MfD, but you will have the advantage of not having to dps pointless adds and will be able to focus more on the mechanically threatening mobs of the encounter. Without taking anticipation you also risk having a dangerously low envenom uptime and a kick like a mule in the final phase. And this is where the damage becomes extremely important if you're wiping on dire calls or raid member deaths. Being able to push the extra mile at the end with the damage buff is more than enough to make up for any small % of damage that you think you may lose without using MfD.

    I used to use MfD myself on Horridon for the initial few weeks of ToT, before actually trying Anticipation and realizing how much of a superior choice it is. Picking up gear made it a lot easier to swing that way but right now with item upgrades, legendary items etc etc it shouldn't really be an issue at all.
    Last edited by flimflop; 2013-07-30 at 04:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by flimflop View Post
    With optimal use of MfD you're looking at what; 15, possibly 20 if you're lucky extra CP's per door?
    The gains should be significantly larger than that if the rogue can play at a high level despite working on H Horridon this late in the tier (no offense - relevance coming - but there should be more than 3 adds you can MfD on each door - 1 small, 1 large, 1 small, 1 small, 1 large, 1 large in that order (moving a larger forward for door 2) by the timing on our first kill iirc - 30 CP). The only time it falls behind is if you need more Horridon damage, or if you can't use it properly. Assuming you're not perfect, and your group isn't miles ahead of the DPS timer (both for clearing mobs and for the enrage), it's just about even for which should be superior - used well, MfD nets more add damage, and used well OR not-that-well, anticipation nets more boss damage. If you're not 100% comfortable with MfD, don't bother, but if you can pull the extra step out without making more mistakes, and need more add damage specifically, go for it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •