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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue with you about this, but how does it scale exponentially with arcane? I don't see anywhere it could double dip in any proc mechanic or anything. Arcane Charges won't increase the damage of it either, so I don't think I'm following you. Or have they updated the proc to something else?

    Currently the proc doesn't scale with dmg modifiers, but in the tool-tip it does. Lhivera got them to confirm something was wrong.

    This is how the tool-tip works.


    200% of sp, say we have 40k, 200% is 80k.

    It does 80k over 4 seconds.

    THEN it adds mastery, so lets say 100% mastery, (on ptr my highest was like 92 with raid buffs...so 100 will be attainable for sure)

    100% of 80k is 80k.

    So 160k.

    THEN rop is the next layer of dmg modifier it takes 15% OF 160K...Not 15% of 80k, 15% of 160k. 184k total, this is without procs or arcane power.

    Lets add 2 int procs, total of 30k int more, so that adds 30k sp. That 30k sp goes to square one of the cloak proc.

    so 70k sp, 200% of that is 140k.

    Then 100% of 140k is 140k more, 280k.

    Then 15% of 280k is added on top. 322k.

    Then arcane power too, it's during burst lets say, time warp is up and that increases the rppm quite a bit as well, which makes it so your likely to get 1-2 procs with all these buffs up.

    So 20% of 322k is added on top. 64.4k more.

    So 386.4k during burst, over 4 seconds. It scales exponentially because the damage modifiers don't add the base damage, they modify the current damage. In the tool-tip this is how it works, I did extensive testing on it and the numbers always matched my numbers.

    386.4k during burst is pretty strong. Granted that won't be always, and other mage specs will still see the scaling with int and rop/invocation. But without arcanes mastery it won't reach nearly as high. The overall damage won't be too far ahead because frost will stack haste, more procs. Fire stacks crit, the proc will crit more. So the overall dmg for arcane will probably only be 1-2% higher. Not overpowered, and of course the proc scales well with fire and frost. It just scales best with arcane.

    Right now the proc is broken, so we have to wait til it's fixed. But this is why it scales exponentially.


    If you take just mastery and rop you are still at 184k. And every 1k spellpower added, adds an exponential amount of damage, 1k sp won't just equate to 4k dmg, it'll equate to 4.6, then 1k more won't be 4.6 it'll be higher -- This is why it'll be strong for arcane. Exponential scaling, similar to how fire scales.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-08-03 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    If you take just mastery and rop you are still at 184k. And every 1k spellpower added, adds an exponential amount of damage, 1k sp won't just equate to 4k dmg, it'll equate to 4.6, then 1k more won't be 4.6 it'll be higher -- This is why it'll be strong for arcane. Exponential scaling, similar to how fire scales.
    Where are you getting that from? Spellpower doesn't affect any of the modifiers. Adding 1k spellpower will always add 2k damage to the base proc, which then gets increased by 230% due to Mastery and RoP/Invocation. [(100% base + 100% mastery)*115% RoP = 230%]
    There is no reason adding another 1k would suddenly give more unless one of those modifiers changes as well.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Where are you getting that from? Spellpower doesn't affect any of the modifiers. Adding 1k spellpower will always add 2k damage to the base proc, which then gets increased by 230% due to Mastery and RoP/Invocation. [(100% base + 100% mastery)*115% RoP = 230%]
    There is no reason adding another 1k would suddenly give more unless one of those modifiers changes as well.
    Oh you are right, well I'm dumb. Regardless it's 4.6k more dmg per 1k sp added.

    Where as for fire it's depending on crit, 40k sp, 80k dmg, 15% rop which is 92k dmg, then with 50% crit your looking at half of that as crit dmg. So 138k roughly, compared to arcanes 184k. If you count 20% crit for arcane, then you are looking at 1/4 of it as crit dmg overall. 257.6k dmg, with only 1 tick critting.

    Arcane usually has more haste than fire as well, which ends up to be more rppms. And frost has the highest rppms..which turns it out to be very high dmg b/c of all the procs.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Arcane usually has more haste than fire as well, which ends up to be more rppms. And frost has the highest rppms..which turns it out to be very high dmg b/c of all the procs.
    Though, you should prolly look at the recent RPPM changes, currently it seems only the legendary cloak RPPM is increased by haste for casters.. They pretty much removed haste from everything else.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Though, you should prolly look at the recent RPPM changes, currently it seems only the legendary cloak RPPM is increased by haste for casters.. They pretty much removed haste from everything else.
    Well yeah I know that, but in the case of arcanes stat priority we still have haste as a priority till we hit our cap -- Then crit does finally become more valuable than haste. But mastery still > everything.

    But yes the cloak still scaling with haste is good.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    It's better than on fights where you need to CONSTANTLY replace rop, talk about a dps loss. This large area will prevent that.

    Not sure why people like to constantly make arguements, with 0 math to back it up, that next tier will destroy arcanes dps. It's just not going to happen, unless you have TESTED the fights, or seen them all and had friends that tested them like me. You don't know how much movement there is or isn't other than what you hear which is usually "ZAMG SUPA MOVEMENT ARCANE BAD"...Literally, that's most of the arguements against arcane, they have no merit to them and they just aren't true. I wish people would bring in facts rather than blandly stating things with no proof or anything to back it up.

    So many people are so anti-arcane, I don't know why. They don't even care if arcane is viable at all because THEIR spec is viable, aka fire. Because THEIR spec is fine, who gives a fuck about others. People pin it on me that my attitude of wanting fire nerfed is bad against mages etc. When in reality so is theirs. Rather than trying to provide reason and context on why arcane would be good or bad next tier, they just go "lolmovementfromwhatihear".

    These arguements are annoying and obnoxious. People have been villainizing me because I want fire on arcanes level, when most of these people would just rather have fire do 200k more dps than any other class and be okay with that. That's not okay. No it's not. IF which I know there isn't as MUCH movement as you say next tier, I hope you realize yes fire does okay with movement it still isn't optimal, and you won't be getting high ignites rolling with scorch spam that is for sure. It's a huge dps loss to scorch over fireball. So stop wishing this heavy movement bullshit on arcane, and bring in the damned proof. TELL ME the mechanics in EACH FIGHT that makes it heavy movement. TELL ME where you have this "super movement" that will wreck arcanes dps.

    Oh you can't can you. Didn't think so.

    I love arcane, i wish I could fulltime spec it honestly. I really don't like the rng nature of fire and it's heavy reliance on combustion.

    That said, I've tested almost every boss available so far on the ptr, and almost all of them favor fire so heavily that it would be sub optimal to be arcane during progression. ( Unless they drastically change the fights, I don't see this happening )

    Arcane's biggest flaw is that the spec doesn't have a "scorch" like fire does. Fire while using scorch over fireball during full movement can still maintain almost all of it's dps. Scorch rotation vs fireball is roughly 80% of the dps fireball would do if I remember correctly.

    Arcane cannot maintain a full cycle rotation while full movement is required. It can sorta do it via the new icy flows, but not really. And definitely not as much "on demand" movement friendly like fire is.

    Arcane would be "fine" for the most part if we had a KJC built into the spec, so we can still do our full dps rotation while moving, just at a snared movement rate for balance.

    Then we would be able to put up with the bullshit of RoP without that much issue.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    I love arcane, i wish I could fulltime spec it honestly. I really don't like the rng nature of fire and it's heavy reliance on combustion.

    That said, I've tested almost every boss available so far on the ptr, and almost all of them favor fire so heavily that it would be sub optimal to be arcane during progression. ( Unless they drastically change the fights, I don't see this happening )

    Arcane's biggest flaw is that the spec doesn't have a "scorch" like fire does. Fire while using scorch over fireball during full movement can still maintain almost all of it's dps. Scorch rotation vs fireball is roughly 80% of the dps fireball would do if I remember correctly.

    Arcane cannot maintain a full cycle rotation while full movement is required. It can sorta do it via the new icy flows, but not really. And definitely not as much "on demand" movement friendly like fire is.

    Arcane would be "fine" for the most part if we had a KJC built into the spec, so we can still do our full dps rotation while moving, just at a snared movement rate for balance.

    Then we would be able to put up with the bullshit of RoP without that much issue.

    ...I mean I am hearing different things from different people. Some people say it's stupid heavy movement -- Others say people are exxagerating, so I'll just wait til next tier to actually see all the fights for myself, and probably make the best out of it, and still compete with our fire mage and still do well...Like this tier.


    From what I've watched it'll be manageable. I even do really well on durumu compared to our fire mage. Hell I did almost 200k on durumu with i536 gear at the time..That's not bad. It's just a matter of minimizing your movement, which if you are really good at arcane you can do.
    Last edited by Vynestra; 2013-08-05 at 09:00 AM.

  8. #108
    Let us use arcane missiles while moving.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    ...I mean I am hearing different things from different people. Some people say it's stupid heavy movement -- Others say people are exxagerating, so I'll just wait til next tier to actually see all the fights for myself, and probably make the best out of it, and still compete with our fire mage and still do well...Like this tier.


    From what I've watched it'll be manageable. I even do really well on durumu compared to our fire mage. Hell I did almost 200k on durumu with i536 gear at the time..That's not bad. It's just a matter of minimizing your movement, which if you are really good at arcane you can do.

    If all the fights were single target or didn't favor a combustion spread on the pull then arcane could very well compete with fire or surpass it. But when you add in those factors and then season it with movement, fire just simply pulls ahead.

    Will some people make arcane "work" during T16 progression? Yes. Will those people be strictly arcane for the entirety of progression? I'd bet money on no. ( Unless there guild is more casual and doesn't care about rankings. then thats a completely different argument :P )

    Honestly, you should probably just do your own testing if you can on the ptr. They will be testing 25m very soon.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    If all the fights were single target or didn't favor a combustion spread on the pull then arcane could very well compete with fire or surpass it. But when you add in those factors and then season it with movement, fire just simply pulls ahead.

    Will some people make arcane "work" during T16 progression? Yes. Will those people be strictly arcane for the entirety of progression? I'd bet money on no. ( Unless there guild is more casual and doesn't care about rankings. then thats a completely different argument :P )

    Honestly, you should probably just do your own testing if you can on the ptr. They will be testing 25m very soon.
    From my testing thus far;

    Immerseus - Favours Frost most, however Fire > Arcane (favours Frost due to Fire's lack of on-demand burst for AoE, and diminished returns on Combust/ramp-up w/ decreasing healthpool and consistent swapping)

    Fallen Protectors N/H - Both Fire and Arcane are very good here; Fire better for boss damage, Arcane better for add damage while maintaining strong boss damage, if Fire does indeed get nerfed Arcane could well be better here, both ~equal as things currently stand.

    Norushen - Both Fire and Arcane good here; due to limited movement in P2 Arcane might come out stronger when it matters most as everyone knows Arc is incredibly hard to beat when there's no movement involved; Arcane also better for nuking down the adds. ~Equal at this point.

    Sha of Pride - N/A, didn't do either N or H testing. From the look of the fight lots of micro movement; new RoP might compensate.

    Iron Juggernaut - Fairly consistent movement and an entire phase where you're getting knocked back pretty consistently; currently favours Fire.

    Ko'kron Shaman N/H - Favours Fire due to Combust spread, but Arcane's definitely not bad here; once dogs are dead favours Arcane w/ new RoP; movement is predictable.

    General Nazgrim N/H - Arcane > Fire here; too much add-swapping and Arcane's on-demand burst is better. New RoP will solve almost all movement issues.

    Malkorok N/H - N/A, haven't done testing, have heard pretty heavy movement so likely favouring Fire

    Thok the Bloodthirsty - Favours Fire purely because if you're kiting the boss it'll wreck Arcane DPS [b]and able to cast from more than 1 school of magic[b], no bombs don't count (Glyphed FFB).

    Siegecrafter Blackfuse - Didn't do HC, but on N would favour Arcane if movement was more predictable, as it stands pretty shit for Mages in general IMO.

    Paragons of the Klaxxi - N/A

    Garrosh - With new RoP might be okay; having to constantly place it going to-and-fro from the Iron Star-summoning adds was frustrating for me, plus consistent re-positioning w/ Desecrated Weapons might force too many RoP re-casts; but else would be a good fight. Decent for Fire/Frost.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    From my testing thus far;
    wtb tl;dr at the end...you just HAD to make me read the whole post and get out my pros and cons sheet

  12. #112
    While this sounds moderately silly, anyone else think it may be an effort by blizz to help control fire mage damage through movement as well? While they can maintain their rotation a scorch rotation is roughly 80% (no real numbers just guessing) of a fireball rotation. While yeah there are going to be parts where fireballs can be casted, could the heavy reliance on scorch semi regularly be an effort to help curb numbers?

    Just a weird pattern I saw with everyone pointing out how intense movement is in SoO (I don't test, ptr doesn't like my comp) so who knows.
    Daft Punk Forever!

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    wtb tl;dr at the end...you just HAD to make me read the whole post and get out my pros and cons sheet
    Well it's gonna be on a fight-by-fight basis for progression so if you want a TL;DR go do the testing yourself

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Well it's gonna be on a fight-by-fight basis for progression so if you want a TL;DR go do the testing yourself
    I would say combustion spread doesn't really overpower arcane, like we cleared normal council this week b/c of the lack of people. I was VERY close behind to our fire mages dps. He was like 324k I was like 316k dps. Multi-dotting, especially with more mastery, and arcane barrage cleave honestly is becoming extremely competive with fire.


    I didn't realize thok had a mechanic that needed other types of dmg. And a lot of times fights that favour fire, arcane ends up doing fine on. I almost tied our fire mages dps on durumu, we're almost in the same gear now, he was at 196k I was at 194k.

    It looks like fire has an extra edge on 1-2 fights...But a really good arcane mage can compensate. We'll have to wait and see. I plan to maximize RoP and ice floes next patch for sure though.

  15. #115
    Tbh, if your Fire Mage only did 324k on NORMAL Council he's doing something wrong.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    I would say combustion spread doesn't really overpower arcane, like we cleared normal council this week b/c of the lack of people. I was VERY close behind to our fire mages dps. He was like 324k I was like 316k dps. Multi-dotting, especially with more mastery, and arcane barrage cleave honestly is becoming extremely competive with fire.
    Combust spread helps to burst down certain things which can help bypass certain mechanics/minimize tank damage. It's more bursty than Arcane and that's why it's good.

  17. #117
    doing something wrong? 324k dps on council normal is better than 97-98% of fire mages killing the boss

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by tolgag View Post
    doing something wrong? 324k dps on council normal is better than 97-98% of fire mages killing the boss
    Because most people with the ilvl capable of pulling that are doing heroics

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Because most people with the ilvl capable of pulling that are doing heroics
    Our ilvls aren't ungodly high. However this attitude that ken shows is a constant one I see on these forums
    So I usually disregard their statements

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynestra View Post
    Our ilvls aren't ungodly high. However this attitude that ken shows is a constant one I see on these forums
    So I usually disregard their statements
    What do you mean by "our"? Are you the other Mage Tol was talking about? If not then I was not talking to you. But i will humor you, what do you mean by "ungodly high"? Because if you have higher then a 522 ilvl then you should be in heroics, otherwise what is the point? Tol said they had to kill it on normal because of no shows, so that means his guild has probably killed it on heroic so the mentioned mages have 1. Enough gear to kill it on heroic and 2. Adequate skill to kill it on heroic. So what the fuck is so special about a heroic geared and skilled player parsing in the top 98% for a normal fight? He has very little competition because they are where they belong, in heroics. So please oh wise Vynesta refute my logic. Or do you disregard that as well?

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