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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by portillos View Post
    If it was designed like it was in the first 3 installments, Yes. The game has all the potential to run strong for 10+ years so long as it is maintained well. But poor design is like poor maintenance. When something lacks quality, it brakes down and dies. I agree that F2P, social gaming, mobile and increased competition has taken a chop at the lost subs. But when you're down to 7+million subs, and trending towards half of what you once were, you need to open up your eyes and take an hard, honest, unbiased look. There is something definitely wrong with the design direction of the game, and it needs to be changed.
    Did you honestly expect the game to have their WotLK 12M subs or more 10 years after release? Its still gonna be running strong, even if it was at 4M by the 10th anniversary, how many games could say they had that after 10 years? Pokemon maybe, and thats not even on PC. I would actually say that Blizzard buying out majority of itself out of Vivendi might be a good step towards a better tommorow, but Im a realist, MoP is pretty packed expansion with lots of story, lots of things to do, pretty good quality, too. The only things I dont like are alt unfriendlyness and dailies everywhere, but compared to Cata, MoP was definitely a step into the right direction, content-wise.

  2. #42
    I read people saying the game is 10 years old... and as true that might be... I started playing about 6 years ago. So for me: the game is 6 years old.
    I got some friends who are playing a little over a year now.... the game is 1 year old to them.

    Basically the argument that the game is 10 years old, goes only for those who are playing 10 years.

    Wow is now almost down to half of what it was end of wrath...... and lets be honest, that is not nothing. Losing half of your customers indicates a lot.
    And this happened in just 1.5 expansion, as MoP isn't over yet.

    This is not about wether GC is good at his job or not, because if he wasn't good he wouldn't be there. Also he is not the only one making this game, he is part of a team.
    So nothing against GC. The whole team should be held responsible, because the decisions taken from cata on caused the bleeding of subs.

    It started by trying to revert some changes in wrath. The problem in cata was the higher investment level of players to get anywhere. Complains about hc's being too hard and stuff. This got better when they went back to wrath kind of dungeons.

    In MoP they tried something else to keep players playing, logged on and doing stuff. We got dailies, dailies, dailies, dailies. Everything was gated, players grinding away. While the dungeons where quite easy..... we didn't get more. In the absence of those hc's, we have to keep running lfr for getting the appropiate gear for the latest raid. This devides the playerbase at 90 over the different available tiers. Friends not able to do raids together because of gear-levels.
    This doesn't seem to have the right effect, as the losses of subs is continuing instead of stopping.

    Basically it looks like Blizzard, and not GC specifically, is not aware of what really brought their game to 12.000.000 subs in the first place and what is needed to keep most of them, not all cause that doesn't seem real. Anyways losing almost 50% of subs should make some alarmbells ring.

    So nothing has to happen to GC, but surely something needs to change in the whole team.

  3. #43
    fair enough Synstir, that's a line of thouhgt I can get behind, that's well done and well said
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    If X is % better then Y, Y is bad. I hate that concept with the searing, burning unfathomable energy of a collapsing supergiant.

  4. #44
    Wrath of the Lich King had a decline in subscribers in the west since nearly launch. It's only because WoW got released in China that the 'total' graph shows an overall increase of subscribers since launch of WotLK.
    ^This

    Every X-pack have bleeded subs after the launch. Taking the high peak of the beginning of WotLK and then comparing it to the end of an X-pack cycle is just dumb. WotLK was bleeding subs from patch 3.2 and onwards.

    The incredible thing is that WoW still has close to 8 million subs - in a 9 year old game. Pretty amazing tbh.

  5. #45
    People should stop blind GC hate because he is not responsible for everything in the game. For example GC wants flying mounts gone but did that happen? There are other countless devs who are involved

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    It's a team effort but the buck must stop with GC.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss Bill Cosby

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitepaw View Post
    ^This

    Every X-pack have bleeded subs after the launch. Taking the high peak of the beginning of WotLK and then comparing it to the end of an X-pack cycle is just dumb. WotLK was bleeding subs from patch 3.2 and onwards.

    The incredible thing is that WoW still has close to 8 million subs - in a 9 year old game. Pretty amazing tbh.
    And yet the total number of subs where still increasing till cata.
    So somewhere something changed.......right?

    And, agreed that after all this time still 7 million + subs, that is an achievement.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Because Ghostcrawler apparently only is good at 'accessibility' and adding more queue-buttons for everything, and making multiple difficulties out of the same content.
    MM: GC we're down to 7.7 million!

    GC: NP, more queue buttons 5.4 chill.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    People should stop blind GC hate because he is not responsible for everything in the game. For example GC wants flying mounts gone but did that happen? There are other countless devs who are involved
    We do not blind gate GC, you people protecting him should take off blindfolds.

    Game is old yes nd to still have 7 millions subscribers is because previous warcraft series. Without them this game would be on same place as rift or GW2.

    I blame GC for all unbalance in game, becase he is the most responsible for it. Developers have PTR and beta realms and lots of feedback from forums and arena tournaments and yet they still can't fix anything? I blame him that he destroyed game during WOLTK with those stupid DK's and paladins. And after that it was only decline...

    HEck in MoP we had one-shotting warlocks walking around... this should NEVER EVER be released on live realms... but yet they still done it. So I call him being incompetent idiot. After so much data and analysis there is still no solution. Same for botting problem. Blizzard don't care about that.

    On other hand WoW has nicely done combat style, animations and quests. But I doubt GC has much word there. He is mainly working on classes and balance which isn't there. So how can you say he made a good job? It's a poor job or nearly nothing was done. At least not in right direction.

    We saw before: mages OP and they still buff them! Rogues OP and they let them stunlock targets. Druids and paladins being unkillable and they let them. DK's being unkillable and being able to kill any other class in few GCD's. Just a few examples of previous expansions... you people just forget those mistakes too fast.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Yeah. I can't wait for Rob Compadro to remove the queue-buttons from the dungeon and raid finder panels. Now that's what I call inaccessible! It's basically gonna be the return of attunements. If you can find the clickable spot, you're worthy of the content.
    It feels to me like you started being sarcastic about RP returning, and then halfway through changed your mind and started being sarcastic about the queue system and all the people who use it?

  11. #51
    Basically it looks like Blizzard, and not GC specifically, is not aware of what really brought their game to 12.000.000 subs in the first place and what is needed to keep most of them, not all cause that doesn't seem real. Anyways losing almost 50% of subs should make some alarmbells ring.
    I'm with you.
    Problem is not releated to one man, I think the problem is from the point of view and the path that they want to go with WoW. But that is just my opinion.

  12. #52
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuron View Post
    ht tp: //i.imgur. com /xzohXU1. png

    I saw this post on reddit. Also, many people seem to think Rob is coming back for expansion 5 but I have heard nothing about it till now.
    Is this correct?

    If Rob is indeed coming back and is being given the creative freedom, I think expansion 5 might be something very amazing. Let us not forget that most of the Titan team is now working on WoW too.

    Rob Padro's team's last creation in WoW was Ulduar. However, if Rob is back, does this mean GC gets shunted to some other department? It does make sense, I mean GC has not been able to even stop the decline in subs and at some point the shareholders and consumers just want change of leadership to breath some fresh life into things.

    Anyone knows more about this?
    In what position did Rob Pardo work in the meantime? Not by chance on Titan which got a reset? 'cause that would speak against him being infalible and always amazing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post

    Basically it looks like Blizzard, and not GC specifically, is not aware of what really brought their game to 12.000.000 subs in the first place and what is needed to keep most of them, not all cause that doesn't seem real. Anyways losing almost 50% of subs should make some alarmbells ring.
    Soooooo....begs the question: Blizzard is clueless? Now then..apparently the forums are full of clever folks who have the solutions. Must be easy to create a game with millions of subs. Funny how neither LotRO nor Bioware with the even bigger Star Wars franchise behind them managed to do it.

    If anyone told us today they have the formula to create a game that not only will break sub records in an unprecedented way but also will KEEP Growing (or at least never ever shrinking) over 10 years, EVERYBODY would just laugh in their faces.

    Yet it seems people expect that of WoW?

    The only sub based game ever to reach 12 million
    The only sub based game ever to have almost 8 million after 8.5 years?

    Not only that, but WoW has after 8.5 years MORE subs than any contender EVER reached during their peak

    http://mmodata.net/

    Look up any game. They all rise in subs, they all climax, they all decline. But WoW would be excempt of that life cycle? What I often miss from all the clever people posting here who seem to know all the answer (Blizzard only has to chose the right answer from the thousands of suggestions that are thrown out randomly) is:

    Maybe 7.7 million subs after over 8 years IS an amzing achievement. Maybe any other team would have crashed and burned the game by now.

    All I know is this: There are great game studios out there. There are all these forums with all these suggestions. There are all these people who pretend to have a clue. The information is out there to pick up.

    Yet no Bioware, no SWoTOR, no Rift, no Aion, no AoC, no WAR, no LotRO can hold a candle to the sucess and endurance of WoW.

    But ofc posters continue to pretend Blizzard is clueless?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Hi Det,

    It looks like you love wow as much (or almost as much) as I do :-)

    I agree when you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Maybe 7.7 million subs after over 8 years IS an amzing achievement. Maybe any other team would have crashed and burned the game by now.
    But at the same time I also see a decline starting from 12.000.000 to 7.7 million now; I don't know if you realize this but that is almost 50% subs gone. How great of a game wow is, you can't be telling me that a decline of 50% of the subs rubs away just because after 8.5 years wow has still 7.7 million players and all other games not even a fraction of that?

    I also hope you can see that if nothing is done against this, it will be a disaster tot this game?

    The decline started with cata and is going on untill now and most lilely it will proceed after this patch.. and that concerns me. Blizzard is trying hard but the decline is a fact and also Blizzard, up untill now, hasn't been able to stop it. So I think they don't know how to do that.... do you think they do know it? If yes... why didn't they stop it?

    And you also come with the age of wow. But that age is only for those who play it since launch. I started 6 years ago, so the game is 6 years old to me. I got friends who just started a year ago.... wow is 1 year old to them. The game is still the biggest on the market and I believe it still has the potential to have 12.000.000 players.

  14. #54
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    I do beg your Pardo?
    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Etrigan View Post
    It feels to me like you started being sarcastic about RP returning, and then halfway through changed your mind and started being sarcastic about the queue system and all the people who use it?
    It's a secret to everybody.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLoki View Post
    Nothing will happen to GC because he does not design raids nor expansions, he didn't implement those endless dailies, he didn't decide to destroy world pvp, he didn't decide to replace future dungeons with scenarios, he doesn't write wow's lore, he doesn't decide future classes nor races, chances are that he didn't changed whatever aspect of the game you liked the most, people hates him and they don't even know what he really does. lol
    That's true, even if I will never forgive him for introducing Chakra to holy priests. Worst design ever.

    Still, he did some good stuff as well, and the game is losing subs because its old and outdated, not because its quality decreased or increased.

  17. #57
    @Synstir:

    The game is down to 7.7 million subs - not 6 million. So it's about a 33% loss. Try comparing that to the corresponding time in WotLK - that would be near the end of patch 3.2. It's hard to find what the actual number of subsribers were at that time - but just before Cataclysm launched, WoW peaked at 12 million: - so it's safe to assume that it was lower earlier in WotLK.

    Since then, it has dropped - but again with a peak when MoP launched. I don't think this has anything to do with GC, but since I play a hybrid char (druid), I enjoy what he has done with the game (basically, GC has balanced the game, so a lot more classes and specs are now viable in PvE and PvP; but that has been at the expense of warriors/mage/priests/rogues, who aren't the kings any more).

    I think the following reasons stand out:
    - Since WotLK, the game has become much harder. At its easiest (tier 7, new Naxxramas), you basically turned up in Naxx in your green quest items and started to collect your epics (Naxx 25 was cleared by raiders wearing Sunwell epics from TBC - that's how easy it was). Heroics were a joke and normal mobs were just steamrolled with aoe. This happened because Blizzard made the starting raids, heroics and leveling areas in TBC really hard. So, at the end of TBC, Blizzard nerfed all mobs with 30% (!) and the trend continued in WotLK. Easy = more players.

    - MoP doesn't have a main adversary, like Lich King in WotLK and Death Wing in Cata. Instead, MoP wants us to focus on the conflict between Horde and Alliance. This was a bad decision imo - it makes it very hard to keep a simple goal for most players, and instead just sends the message of "Hey, enjoy the ride instead of focusing on reaching a certain destination!". Very zen - but not a good business decision. Especially not when the "conflict" de-escalates (c wat I did thar?) into Horde and Alliance cooperating against a Sha-infested Garrosh. Would have been way more appropriate if Horde just wanted to annihilate Alliance. THAT would have been in-line with the stated intension.

    - Too much focus on LFR, too little focus on 5 man heroics. Combined with the 5 man heroics being way too easy (when you don't have to use CC at all in a 5 man heroic = too easy), these are now back to aoe rotations and easy bosses. Challenge modes are fun, but 5 man heroics should be fun (= hard) as well. I wonder if any of the level 90 5 mans are ever done on Normal?

    - Too much rep grinding in MoP and not a proper reward at the end. I enjoy the changes and scenarios you unlock when raising the rep in certain areas (Operation: Shieldwall), but I actually enjoyed grinding the rep more in TBC to be able to do Heroics at all (you had to get to Revered with certain factions to unlock the dungeons). Now, you get a scenario, some more story - and that's it.

    So, even though the devs lowered the difficulty in 5 man heroics (which should have sustained subs), the lack of a clear identifiable adversary, 5 man heroics and rep grinding pulled in the other direction.

    Mists of Pandaria is kind of a fitting name - the mists have clouded the vision of the expansion, with only the face of a Panda remaining. You can even see that in the promotional vids for the expansions:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBHL...-iz0pkQIdjNjsb
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCr7...-iz0pkQIdjNjsb
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq4Y...-iz0pkQIdjNjsb
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYX...-iz0pkQIdjNjsb

    Seen from a story-telling PoV, I still think that the WotLK and Cata videos were best - and delivered most honestly compared to how the expansion actually played out.

  18. #58
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    Hi Det,


    But at the same time I also see a decline starting from 12.000.000 to 7.7 million now; I don't know if you realize this but that is almost 50% subs gone. How great of a game wow is, you can't be telling me that a decline of 50% of the subs rubs away just because after 8.5 years wow has still 7.7 million players and all other games not even a fraction of that?

    I also hope you can see that if nothing is done against this, it will be a disaster tot this game?

    The decline started with cata and is going on untill now and most lilely it will proceed after this patch.. and that concerns me. Blizzard is trying hard but the decline is a fact and also Blizzard, up untill now, hasn't been able to stop it. So I think they don't know how to do that.... do you think they do know it? If yes... why didn't they stop it?

    And you also come with the age of wow. But that age is only for those who play it since launch. I started 6 years ago, so the game is 6 years old to me. I got friends who just started a year ago.... wow is 1 year old to them. The game is still the biggest on the market and I believe it still has the potential to have 12.000.000 players.
    I started at launch, so the game is 8 years old. In that time I ran up 450 days /played. 209 on my main from classic and TBC. And this is why I see the age different. I literally played the game to death with raids from Tier 1 to Tier 11.

    Anybody who joined a year ago, has NO REASON to raid these tiers. He can..if he so choses..solo all the old raids and be done with them. I spend a year in MC alone while also doing BWL. A year in Tier 4, Tier 5. I raided 3 days a week. So..somebody who started with MoP can pretty much get tired of the game in that one year, because he will level much much faster and he can skip all the raid and pvp content. He can even skip most quests if he so choses.

    Now: My point to everything else stands. You say: "I also hope you can see that if nothing is done against this, it will be a disaster tot this game?" Pray tell: What needs to be done. This is where it fails because hundreds of posters will come here making hundreds of suggestins (all contradicting) and ...let me be so blunt...pretty much EVERYONE of us is clueless. Nobody is a game designer. Nobody works in the industry. And IF one of us is a game designer - well..why is the game that you work on NOT a game with 7 million subs?

    I really really really want to understand where people get the confidence to know what is "needed to fix the game"?

    The argument of the 12 million subs. Well, really (Rob Pardo said that in an interview for the 5th anniversary) three times as many people have passed through the game. So we are talking 36 million people playing WoW. That means 29 million have quit for good.

    Where are they now? Where is the game that sucked them in? It certainly isn't another MMO.

    And let me point to mmodata.net - Every game has at one point lost even MORE than 50% of subs. NO game could keep their subs.
    Rift went to 600 000 and downt to 250 000. In a year they lost over 60%. And they are still around
    SWToR sold 2 million copies and dropped to a fraction of that in a year.
    Aion from 4 million to 2.

    Where is the doomsaying there? Where is the "it is a diseaster to the game"? These games have gone through the cycle of ups and downs in a fraction of WoWs lifespan.

    But hell - seriously..I am happy for everyone who is confident to KNOW what WoW needs. Go ahead, ring at Blizzard's door and sell you knowledge for a fortune.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #59
    Did the ceo of EA really have anything to do with the failed launch of Sim City? Of course he didn't but he got canned none the less.

    When things go badly, someone gets fired and it tends to be the guy that's at the top. Right now it's not going so hot for WoW so it really wouldn't be a big shock to see some people get replaced. It doesn't matter if they are at fault or not. When things go right your a hero, when they do not your a zero.

  20. #60
    About the age of the game, just because you only play the game for a day or a week won't make it new, it's like calling a car that was manufactured 30 years ago new just because you have just laid your eyes on it.

    Some mechanics like the outdated targeting based combat system, the gear based progression where new tiers and expansions automaticaly make the previous ones obsolete, Blink/Charge not functioning properly and so on, have been unchanged since launch. There are solutions to many of these, yet no advances have been made and this is why people who care about those things leave.

    Many play just so they can say they play World of Warcraft, in love with the art style or simply invisted too much time to leave. But if you scrach all that away and look under the emotional paint there is nothing that would really glue anybody who experienced the other MMOs out there to WoW.

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