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  1. #21
    World first or not, it is still cheating the progression.
    When it happens does not change that.

  2. #22
    I always assumed it was so you don't do boss A on 25m heroic because he's easier than 10m heroic then do boss B on 10m heroic because he's easier than 25m heroic.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Staticus View Post
    It's because Blizz cares more about the tiny handful of elite guilds not doing something they don't want them to (such as funnelling gear to mains, which they do on normals btw) during the brief world first race, than they do about the hundreds/thousands of guilds that disband or struggle to keep going because of the resulting restrictions. (no flexible lockouts etc.)

    It's completely illogical and hurts a large number of paying customers, but then again...a few celebrities always come first right? (gotta keep the masses of fanboys and worshippers in line)

    Really they should just lift the restrictions after a month or two, as there aren't usually problems before then (content is still fresh etc.) and it allows even the individual servers to get their race out of the way (if there is any competition) without any so-called "exploits". (not that Blizz would care anyway as there's no celebrities involved at that point)
    Rankings matter on every level. World, realm, faction...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldonir View Post
    So I suppose what you want to tell us is, that a guild that hasn't cleared ToT HC after 2 months suddenly gets an awesome advantage above another guild because they can use their alts to funnel gear into their mains from all the bosses where one half of the raid doesn't even need any items from anymore? Please get real.
    Why don't you get real and just recruit a tank?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Rankings matter on every level. World, realm, faction...

    - - - Updated - - -



    Why don't you get real and just recruit a tank?

    Because recruiting a tank for that one time every three weeks we really need an additional tank and bench him the rest of the time would be a little overkill for a casual guild maybe?

  5. #25
    Because then progression would involve another step in getting ringers to carry you rather than you genuinely progressing on the boss itself, and people would justifiably complain about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaldonir View Post
    Because recruiting a tank for that one time every three weeks we really need an additional tank and bench him the rest of the time would be a little overkill for a casual guild maybe?
    HMs are designed for a certain group of players.

  6. #26
    Blademaster Dariussv's Avatar
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    I really like the current model, no need for changes, really.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by kaldonir View Post
    Because recruiting a tank for that one time every three weeks we really need an additional tank and bench him the rest of the time would be a little overkill for a casual guild maybe?
    Then have someone in your group build an offset for that fight or learn how to do it with two tanks. Three tanks makes it easier but two tanks isn't at all impossible either.

  8. #28
    So apparently it was to combat guild poaching and to make guilds more committed to each other.

    Isn't that an old fashion notion? With the world crumbling by LFR/LFD and less incentive to even RAID to begin with, why are they still binding raiders to guilds?

    In this new world of "let me slam my dick on my keyboard for lootz" why are they still forcing raiders these restrictions?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    So apparently it was to combat guild poaching and to make guilds more committed to each other.

    Isn't that an old fashion notion? With the world crumbling by LFR/LFD and less incentive to even RAID to begin with, why are they still binding raiders to guilds?

    In this new world of "let me slam my dick on my keyboard for lootz" why are they still forcing raiders these restrictions?
    You can combine lockouts for Normal. Heroic is for the elite so it should have lockout restrictions.

  10. #30
    Then my suggestion would be to disable the restriction with patches like 5.1 and 5.3, so anyone who does HCs at this point can merge IDs as wildly as he wants.
    I support this

  11. #31
    You still have to consider server races. So if they were to do that they would probably need to tie it to the realm first kill achievement.

  12. #32
    The idea, as advertised, is to preserve raid groups. And guess what? It's doing exactly what it was designed to do.

    The alternative? Alright, so, I clear a few heroics on the first raid day of the week. The next day, an off-night, I see a group advertising that they're starting at X-Boss and are doing Y-Heroics. Oh, hey, that's better than what my group is going to do! So, I join the raid, kill a bunch of bosses, and then pretend that I had to stay extra late at work the next day.

    In other words, it prevents people from screwing over their guilds. Would you like it if your tank showed up to the first raid day of the week and then didn't show up again because he found another group that was doing better? I sure wouldn't like it.

    I've got to be honest here, you guys: I'm seeing more and more threads suggesting ideas for purely selfish reasons. Would I like it if I could take my warlock through my guild's first day and then tag along with another guild that is more progressed? Sure, I'd love to have a chance at more heroics and more gear! But then I'd be fucking over my guild, wouldn't I? That's selfish. The idea presented in this thread is selfish.

    This is becoming a recurring theme on MMO-Champion. "I don't like flying, Blizzard should remove it." "I don't like CRZ, Blizzard should remove it." "I don't like the changes to my class, change them back." I don't like this, get rid of it, I don't like that, get rid of it. I'm fucking glad that Blizzard isn't retarded enough to actually accept these suggestions.

    Stop being so selfish and actually support your guild or find a new one.

    edit: And before any suggests otherwise, I'm actually in a situation right now where the idea presented in this thread could be of GREAT use to me... but my guild needs me and I'm going to continue to support them until I decide I've had enough. A bad idea that could benefit selfish people is still a bad idea. This particular idea is bad because it would damage the guild-raid dynamic. Do you have any idea how many guild raid groups would immediately feel the negative repercussions of this idea? Hundreds, if not thousands of guilds would all be wondering where their warlock, or their tank, or their healer decided not to show up that day. It would literally cause guild damage on a massive scale. Ignorance of this is no excuse to suggest such an idea.

  13. #33
    Because it would be used for gear funnel like guilds to with normal modes on week one.

    So people would do multiple raids on alts to gear up and merge for the progression boss.

    And yes, Blizzard loves it when it takes time to gear up, it keeps people subscribed.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    The idea, as advertised, is to preserve raid groups. And guess what? It's doing exactly what it was designed to do.

    The alternative? Alright, so, I clear a few heroics on the first raid day of the week. The next day, an off-night, I see a group advertising that they're starting at X-Boss and are doing Y-Heroics. Oh, hey, that's better than what my group is going to do! So, I join the raid, kill a bunch of bosses, and then pretend that I had to stay extra late at work the next day.

    In other words, it prevents people from screwing over their guilds. Would you like it if your tank showed up to the first raid day of the week and then didn't show up again because he found another group that was doing better? I sure wouldn't like it.

    I've got to be honest here, you guys: I'm seeing more and more threads suggesting ideas for purely selfish reasons. Would I like it if I could take my warlock through my guild's first day and then tag along with another guild that is more progressed? Sure, I'd love to have a chance at more heroics and more gear! But then I'd be fucking over my guild, wouldn't I? That's selfish. The idea presented in this thread is selfish.

    This is becoming a recurring theme on MMO-Champion. "I don't like flying, Blizzard should remove it." "I don't like CRZ, Blizzard should remove it." "I don't like the changes to my class, change them back." I don't like this, get rid of it, I don't like that, get rid of it. I'm fucking glad that Blizzard isn't retarded enough to actually accept these suggestions.

    Stop being so selfish and actually support your guild or find a new one.

    edit: And before any suggests otherwise, I'm actually in a situation right now where the idea presented in this thread could be of GREAT use to me... but my guild needs me and I'm going to continue to support them until I decide I've had enough. A bad idea that could benefit selfish people is still a bad idea. This particular idea is bad because it would damage the guild-raid dynamic. Do you have any idea how many guild raid groups would immediately feel the negative repercussions of this idea? Hundreds, if not thousands of guilds would all be wondering where their warlock, or their tank, or their healer decided not to show up that day. It would literally cause guild damage on a massive scale. Ignorance of this is no excuse to suggest such an idea.
    Or you know, guilds that run 2 10 man groups could more easily interchange between the two as well as interchange a bench group between the two.

    Just because you only have selfish intentions in mind doesn't mean others don't see how it could help their guild as a whole.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Or you know, guilds that run 2 10 man groups could more easily interchange between the two as well as interchange a bench group between the two.

    Just because you only have selfish intentions in mind doesn't mean others don't see how it could help their guild as a whole.
    Not being able to change player between group is much less frustrating than having someone in your raid guild / group abandon ship in middle of the raid. What Belloc said (and not the progression race) was exactly why Blizzard implemented the raid lockout system at first place (according to a Blue post long long time ago). After all, if you can jump between group, there is no need to be in a guild / fixed group, is there? Blizzard want to prevent guilds from being killed, though.

    Now try to convince Blizzard that the player base isn't that bad. GL with that.

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    It essentially exists to prevent "Pyramid scheme" raiding.
    IE, you have 100 people who can raid. Some of them are good, some of them are average, some of them are medeocre.
    You split those 100 people into 4 25 man raids. Each group clears the first 2 / 3 bosses, gives the loot to the best people in each group.
    You then keep the 50 best people out of those 4 raids, merge into 2 25 man raids, and clear 2 more bosses. Repeat gearing strategy.
    You then keep the best 25 people out of those 2 remaining raids, merge into 1 25 man raid, and see if you can clear 1 more boss.

    Essentially this is designed to force raid groups to stop where the natural progression limit for the group is. Normally, you would have 4 raids stopped at the 4th boss. Without the ID restriction, you could simply shuffle gear to the best players and keep slimming the number of groups untill you have an unnatural amount of loot from multiple combined raids allowing for much greater then normal depth of progression in a single raid lockout for one group at the end.

    Basicly, think of the initial exploiting that went on with LFR when the gear that dropped could be traded, and apply it to Heroic Raiding.
    This is a really good explanation and that's why we have to have shared ID's. The only reason we don't have shared ID on Normal, is cause Normals (inb4 Flex mode) serves the group of players who wants to pug and those with a casual approach. It's not a guild who's still not killed Normal Lei Shen Blizz is worried about in the long run. Casual guilds struggle more with attendance and less optimal rosters. That's why it's good that Normal mode doesn't share ID but it also gives 25 man guilds (mostly) like Method, Envy Blood Legion etc. an advance when it comes to loot.

    Heroics are meant to be hard and to be done as a guild group. It's about working together, progressing and without the restriction, you'd see a mess when it comes to rankings. You'd see drama over a core raider getting benched for a high end heroic raider who could even collect say 100k for a boost etc.

    Anyways, as others has said; If you're actually anything serious about your raiding, you have an alternative to your tanks (a dps with an OS) or you re-schedule. If you know a key person won't be available in a weeks advance - anything less is rather slacking from the person missing the raid - you do have time to sort your roster. Trying to find a tank (of all the roles a tank.....) mid week for a Heroic boss, seems silly tbh.

    Cause if I were a random tank and saw you spamming, I wouldn't wanna join either. A) There's plenty of days to find a fresh run, B) There's no guarantee that you'll kill it, thus my time could end up being wasted and C) I might have a guild raid myself at that time.

    Anyways, the system is fine.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Or you know, guilds that run 2 10 man groups could more easily interchange between the two as well as interchange a bench group between the two.

    Just because you only have selfish intentions in mind doesn't mean others don't see how it could help their guild as a whole.
    Just because you have one ideal situation in which the idea could be beneficial doesn't mean that it would be a good idea. Far more people would abuse this idea than would use it for good reasons. Guilds would die. Even those guilds with two 10-man groups would die, because it only takes one person to ruin it.

    It's a bad idea because it could and would be exploited for negative purposes. It would destroy the entire purpose of raiding guilds. For every one or two guilds getting some kind of positive benefit from it, there would be 10 guilds falling apart.

    So, once again, it becomes a matter of selfishness. A destructive idea with benevolent uses is still a destructive idea. Would you sacrifice hundreds/thousands of raid groups just so your two 10-man groups can interchange a little easier/swap to 25-man? That's selfishness.

    My previous post still applies. Until you guys can start considering the negative implications of the ideas you suggest, you might as well not post. Blizzard will never consider these ideas beyond the negative aspects because those aspects are so destructive. Sure, you might love it if they removed flying, but the game would suffer. You might love it if they removed LFD and LFR, but the game would suffer. Yet, people keep suggesting these ideas as if there are no downsides. The Heroic ID restrictions are the same. Removing them would allow any player the opportunity to abandon their guild mid-progression and the entire raiding-guild system would collapse. That's why this is a bad idea.


    edit: Now, I have no problem with people posting ideas. My problem is with ideas that have obvious issues that make them unworkable and are suggested for selfish reasons. If people can't figure out the simple, obvious reasons that their ideas wouldn't work (or if they can figure them out and simply disregard them), they shouldn't be posting.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Not being able to change player between group is much less frustrating than having someone in your raid guild / group abandon ship in middle of the raid. What Belloc said (and not the progression race) was exactly why Blizzard implemented the raid lockout system at first place (according to a Blue post long long time ago). After all, if you can jump between group, there is no need to be in a guild / fixed group, is there? Blizzard want to prevent guilds from being killed, though.

    Now try to convince Blizzard that the player base isn't that bad. GL with that.
    We had our "B" team do exactly that.

    They were nowhere near as progressed as the core group but we did funnel alts from the core group in order to try and help progress them as time permitted. We would even sit a main player at times to help the "B" team catch up.

    We were one of a very few guilds on our server to have elegon down pre nerf. The "B" team got a lot of sweet talk from the GM of one of the worst guilds on the server who were not even downing 3 bosses at that time. We got the "B" team an elegon kill and the next day they defected to the lesser guild, grouped with their players and voilla had "earned" equal progression to many of the other guilds behind us.

    Raid lockouts should come back across the board.

    Selfish people only ever see their own greedy needs.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  19. #39
    Raid Id ninjaing.

  20. #40
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphie View Post
    Raid Id ninjaing.
    had something similar to that happen just a few weeks ago.
    we just recently moved a branch of our guild to a new server.
    we had to rely heavily on pugs as we started to move forward through the content, build a footprint for ourselves and recruit.
    we chose to pug in players of our calibre from the current "top" guilds on the server.
    the number two guild had some officers join us and we were steadily progressing as best we could.

    we progressed past the point where their "B" team was getting.
    next day the players that had pugged in with us were "not available" causing us to reschedule due to lack of players skilled enough for the bosses we were on.

    that same day they not only took their "B" team in on the lockout that we had earned but also removed our ele shaman who had unbeknownst to us been an alt of one of their guild core players effectively screwing our progression to help their lesser skilled players get past something they could not earn on their own.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

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