1. #1

    Fixing PvP Once and For All! Here is how

    Ok so Here is a thought I have had for quite a while. Gimme your ideas on what you think.

    1/For as long as I have been playing this game (far too long) pve and pvp have always had abilities nurfed because of one or the other which just ends up annoying the other camp. I think all of us can think of a few example of this happening to your class at one time or other.

    2/It has widely been said by Blizz developers that its quite hard to balance sometimes due to not wanting to nurf pve abilities of a class by lowering the number of a pvp ability that needs to be lowered. SO an issue for developers here also

    3/Blizz had already on some abilities nurfed some aspect of it for pvp only (cc timings in pve 30secs etc - in pvp 6secs etc etc)

    4/Blizz canceled tri spec at a late-ish stage after deciding against it.

    These are four salient points to me that present an answer to all of this.

    Having a separate pvp Talent Tree as the Third spec/tri spec

    So here is how it would work...

    A/ you would have a dedicated talent tree for pvp - if you play a hybrid class this allows for choices on healing / dps / tank depending on your class.

    B/ This Pvp tree is 100% separate to your pve talent tree. They have said they plan to cull a lot of fluff abilities for next expansion so this clears things up for them to do this.

    C/ Abilities in the pvp tree make it clear and concise how long cc lasts for example. and other needed information to help newer players understand and get interested in pvp without any confusion they may already have (ie quite a few posts here are newer ppl not understanding how an ability in pve works in pvp)

    D/ Choices choices- It should be laid out in a non cookie cutter way (which has been quite often this expansion even though they tried not to) ie going for burst talents or cc talents or a mixture but not master of both. can change the way you fit into your team as YOU decide.

    E/ Each class would have their own talent tree such as in pve currently. The two trees would never ever mix (pve-pvp) and nurfing one because of the other would never ever happen again. For example Feral druids would keep natures swiftness in pve but not in pvp (current ptr change) making pve ferals much happier (insert your class and change here)

    F/ They opened the door for this as they canceled tri spec but have the facility to do it. This is very similar and would be available in that role (different but similar) ie third spec would be pvp by default.

    G/ Greater Flexibility- I cannot give your ability numbers as I don't earn the big bucks as developer at blizz but the numbers could be tweaked with greater flexability than currently as they fear about messing up other aspects such as pve.

    H/ This will take effort! effort from developers, I wont deny this! but lets face it. After so many years of trying to balance and failing to do so each time, its about time they tried something radical to give it a proper go. This is that plan. This is the blue print to fix it all.

    Now I am sure I have not thought of everything. There for sure can be things that will make this better but as I mentioned, I firmly believe this is the way forward for a happier more balanced pvp - pve separation in WoW for the future.

    Any THoughts

    - - - Updated - - -

    SO was thinking- Why would I spec into this pvp talent spec? what makes it better than pve.
    Apart from the mandatory *you must use this for pvp* which is boring I must admit, Give a choice of a reward while in PvP talent Spec:

    10% pvp Pwr or 10% pvp Res - your choice which you choose as a buff while in pvp talent spec.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Also- as a further development could have bonuses affecting your gloves bonus (ie trap bonus for hunters - cyclone for druids etc etc)

    Lets face it, those glove bonuses are getting a little tired. So much more could be done and opened up as a reward in a pvp talent tree spec. So the bonus would not be on the gloves but as a little perk.

    Nothing game breaking- Just a little perk for your chosen spec. Spice things up a little instead of having gloves- *oh there we go, whatever bonus is on that then I suppose*
    Last edited by Jeire; 2013-07-31 at 04:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Epic! dacoolist's Avatar
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    It's a great idea, I just don't know about such a huge bonus for being in only one spec - fixing all of PVP. But it's a START <3

  3. #3
    I didn't see anything about removing gear as a factor in PvP, so I can't say it's a complete fix my friend. But yeah, they need to quit trying to walk the balance fence because it isn't working. They either need to stop being stubborn and separate PvP and PvE mechanics, or they need to go back to the vanilla model and just acknowledge PvP as a side game, and not balance around it AT ALL. People didn't really care so much about PvP balance until they got that fool notion in their heads to try and turn an MMO into an Esport, which failed utterly.

  4. #4
    Idd its not a fix for all pvp- but imho a fix for most of it. as I said its a blue print to build on. Nowhere near perfect but something to spice things up, and stop the annoyance of talents effecting pve-pvp

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    I didn't see anything about removing gear as a factor in PvP, so I can't say it's a complete fix my friend. But yeah, they need to quit trying to walk the balance fence because it isn't working. They either need to stop being stubborn and separate PvP and PvE mechanics, or they need to go back to the vanilla model and just acknowledge PvP as a side game, and not balance around it AT ALL. People didn't really care so much about PvP balance until they got that fool notion in their heads to try and turn an MMO into an Esport, which failed utterly.
    I tried to keep away from talking about gear as I am in two minds on the subject - Trying to get people into all pvp gear will not work imo as people will stick with the trinkets in pve that are powerfull. I do like how they have put a cap on ilvl. That is a start for sure. I would keep in the cap for arenas for sure but honestly, I am still thinking about otherwise the subject of gear

    I don't think they will ever go back to pvp as a side project or mini game of wow. I think it is here to stay and a major part of the game- I am alright with that. But you cannot sit on the fence and try and balance both on the same model. If you want pvp in your game and pve, you must separate them to stop exasberating your playerbase

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    It's a great idea, I just don't know about such a huge bonus for being in only one spec - fixing all of PVP. But it's a START <3
    Ye numbers can be tweaked. I just thought 10% of your base Res/pwr is a nice perk for being in the talent tree. If everyone in pvp has this, then it shouldn't be inbalanced.

    Also I went with pvp pwr/Res instead of int/str etc as that avoids it becoming attractive for pve.
    Also for world pvp this promotes the PvP talent tree even more while not 100% shutting out pve geared people.

  5. #5
    I ruminated on this a while back when it came up in discussion. I started to make a lengthy post about it and ultimately scrapped the idea. I thought it would be great to have a "pvp" spec that had pvp perks tied into it that made it almost mandatory for PvP. Like activating hte pvp spec gave you Every Man for Himself type skill and that makes CC trinket baseline. Activating PvP spec also enables the baseline resilience and pvp power. That way the devs could essentially balance 11 pvp specs instead of 34.

    The problem is with the hybrid classes and tanks. Do you remove tank roles completely from pvp? (they seem to be moving in that direction). Do you force classes with healing ability to heal only? Just seemed like in the simplification you actually are adding more complexity.

    Honestly, I am one of the people that think the baseline resilience, pvp power on pvp gear and gear caps in rated play put pvp where it should be gear wise. The problems people have right now are mainly with the amount of CC and damage issues. CC I think should be fixed by removing DR on CC and just making it not work the second time around. What I mean is instead of getting psyfiend feared for 8 sec, then 4 sec, then 2 sec then you are immune you instead get feared for 8 secs then are immune for the remainder of DR. It would remove a lot of the endless CC chains. Now, if you do that you also have to have a way for healers to eventually go OOM because currently without those ridiculous CC chains it is hard to land kills. Damage wise, it is really a problem with Blizzard knowing the outliers for damage but not knowing how to nerf pvp damage but leave pve damage in-tact to keep classes balanced. I think they should just be able to tweak all spells like they have done to some spells. For example, the recent change to stampede gives it player damage reduction but leaves it in place for pve. They just need to understand that most people don't care that it is "confusing" for spells to do two different things. Sounds more like a PR issue than a game issue to me.

  6. #6
    Pit Lord Malgru's Avatar
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    No.. mixing 3 talent specs into one tree would be an absolute nightmare. I don't want a mage walking around with Arcane Power / Icy Veins at the same time. I don't want a DK walking around with Unholy Frenzy and Pillar of Frost and Vampiric Blood at the same time. I don't want a feral walking around with Starfall or Tree of Life.

    It wouldn't work.

  7. #7
    Yeah, this is too complicated an idea. Let's look at the most complained about issues in PvP.

    1. Burst damage being too high
    a. Class specific damage/burst

    These are problems with specific mechanics such as Elemental's current random proc damage from Lava Burst and some of the BM Hunter damage issues during 5.3. These can't be quick, ham-handed fixes, and have to be carefully approached. For e.g. When Ele have their Flame shock dispelled they hit for low numbers, but with FS up they hit too hard. The solution is to have more consistent damage with a little spike in burst. They could reduce the effectiveness of Flame Shock by 80% and bake that damage into lightning bolt. This way Ele retains good dmg while being mobile but at the same time use FS to burst harder.

    Class specific issues have to be dealt individually based on feedback / monitoring. There's no quick fix there.


    b. General burst increase from PVE gear in PVP

    This one is easier. Gear isn't a problem, just trinkets. If all PVE trinkets had their effectiveness and duration reduced by X % (like they already do with certain trinkets) in instanced PVP, there's the quick fix.

    2. Too many (instant as well) CC's ruining game play experience

    This one is a little tricky. If CC were to be reduced then we need all classes to have MS effects back to combat healers dominating everywhere, while not nerfing the healing abilities for PVE.

    3. Gear disparity between fresh 90's and veterans.

    This problem is already somewhat fixed. If anything let PVP gear be a little better than it is for world pvp.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Malgru View Post
    No.. mixing 3 talent specs into one tree would be an absolute nightmare. I don't want a mage walking around with Arcane Power / Icy Veins at the same time. I don't want a DK walking around with Unholy Frenzy and Pillar of Frost and Vampiric Blood at the same time. I don't want a feral walking around with Starfall or Tree of Life.

    It wouldn't work.
    I think you are misunderstanding it, As currently with pve you have 3 specs with one talent tree between the 3 (druids 4)
    It would work in the same principle. PLus as I mentioned the talent tree would make you choose between your playstyle- making it much more difficult to have the *best abilities each level*
    Last edited by Jeire; 2013-07-31 at 10:15 PM.

  9. #9
    This just seems as if it would have a nerf to PvEers in PvE. It's not all about healing/dpsing/taking dmg. Our CCs and "PvP" abilities are used just as much as they're used in PvP. As a mage, the only two talents you never should choose in PvE are Incanter's Ward and Ice Ward. And even Ice ward could have its uses on some very specific fights.

    So, PvE players would still need every talent available. They're all very important in PvE.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    This just seems as if it would have a nerf to PvEers in PvE. It's not all about healing/dpsing/taking dmg. Our CCs and "PvP" abilities are used just as much as they're used in PvP. As a mage, the only two talents you never should choose in PvE are Incanter's Ward and Ice Ward. And even Ice ward could have its uses on some very specific fights.

    So, PvE players would still need every talent available. They're all very important in PvE.
    did you even read this?

    Pve would still keep its cc as ever- its full duration- pvp talent tree would keep its pvp cc- at pvp duration

    They would never ever be nurfed - changed because of the other- This is one of the best possible things could ever happen to pve

  11. #11
    Not a new or original idea.
    Blizzard have stated that it simply is not fun when an ability behaves considerably different from what you would come to expect.
    Blizzard do not want you re-learning a class just for specific content.
    The idea has been discussed multiple times, and given the previous history of such discussions it will not happen.

  12. #12
    I think Blizz should split the game up ( split the code base), PVE version and a PVP version, On the Pvp subscription you get all pve gear free and on the pve subscription you get all the pvp gear free. (These subs are half the price of of the current subscription fee). Then you can balance both independently without affecting the other. It's so perfect.

  13. #13
    buff sustained damage (ie. what pve'ers call fillers) remove swifty buttons, remove anti-swifty buttons, put CC back to where it was in TBC and PvP will be 100X more fun and balanced.

  14. #14
    What about core/spec based abilities? For example, warrior's [Execute] has been nerfed and buffed quite a lot over the years. If Blizzard decided to (as an example) buff execute because they felt it was too weak in PvE, it may end up being overpowered in PvP. Blizzard has said that they don't like having abilities function differently in PvP/PvE because they feel it makes the game confusing to newer/casual players. Your idea doesn't address this.

    That said, limiting each class to one specific talent tree would definitely improve balance to an extent. Not sure that's the way I'd like the game to go, though. Variety has plenty of merits.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by HearldTheTerrible View Post
    What about core/spec based abilities? For example, warrior's [Execute] has been nerfed and buffed quite a lot over the years. If Blizzard decided to (as an example) buff execute because they felt it was too weak in PvE, it may end up being overpowered in PvP. Blizzard has said that they don't like having abilities function differently in PvP/PvE because they feel it makes the game confusing to newer/casual players. Your idea doesn't address this.

    That said, limiting each class to one specific talent tree would definitely improve balance to an extent. Not sure that's the way I'd like the game to go, though. Variety has plenty of merits.
    This would only work if the other non-pvp specs had a major pvp disadvantage. For e.g. maybe being the 'pvp spec' is actually what grants you resilience - not gear. However, this does bring up the other problem you mentioned. No class is going to want to be pigeonholed into one spec. So, that's not going to work.


    As some have mentioned already:

    - Move more burst damage into sustained
    - Move certain CC's into other DR groups (would require buffing/giving MS effects to all classes to combat healers being gods)
    - Reduce effectiveness of ALL pve trinkets in pvp by at least 75% - or rather just have PVE trinkets not work in PVP. Simple.
    - Limit the max damage of any pvp hit to be no more than 1/3rd of a players total HP pool. This is a bit tricky, not sure how to approach it. Maybe an average. If the avg health pool now is 420k, then no pvp attack will go over 140k. Even that seems too much, though.
    - Have more abilities have a risk/reward functionality. Like right now with nerfing cyclone for Feral, they have to pop out of form to cast it, losing time shifting back and opening them up to CC that they usually don't worry about (poly/hex)

  16. #16
    Blizzard: Hmm...that looks like work. Here, now you can buy some heads from the cash shop and feel better about it.

  17. #17
    What about PvPers who want to PvP in more then 1 spec? If anything, just add a PvP tag to the spec choice that changes the spells or something, tri-spec feels like overcomplicating things?

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