Rejoice! Demon Hunter is already playable in-game, but not clear enough, apparently.

[Teriz]

Yet once you do that, it's no longer the WC3 hero, it becomes something new.

This becomes the crux of the conversation, because arguments have been created to prevent this idea from blossoming. Anything demon-related is criticized as being too similar to Warlocks. Anything non-demon related is attacked for alienating Demon Hunter identity. In the end, those arguments are only relevant if we were talking about the Warcraft 3 unit becoming a class.

But that's not what people are asking for. People want a playable Demon Hunter in WoW. That means 3 specs, 100+ abilities, their own gameplay mechanics and playstyle, and their own lore. This is something the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter simply can not be regarded as. It's an identity that has not been fully realized yet.

Thing is, we have no precedent for such a narrow archetype to become a class. Every other class introduced into WoW have come from very large archetypes that have swallowed the more specialized archetypes into their larger themes.

Which is why the chances of a DH class entering the game is slim to none.

[Thimagryn]

Thing is, we have no precedent for such a narrow archetype to become a class. Every other class introduced into WoW have come from very large archetypes that have swallowed the more specialized archetypes into their larger themes.

Which is why the chances of a DH class entering the game is slim to none.

This is true, and it's for this reason that I believe that the Demon Hunter won't be fully realized as a class. The fact that they are identified as a melee-based class works against them.

I don't see using Demons as hindering any aspect though, since it's as simple a theme as Holy magic or Nature magic. Although it is currently exclusive to Warlocks, it is not a theme that is mutually exclusive to them. Even Hunters and Druids share the theme of Beasts, there is no real condition that says no other class can be identified with Demons or Demonic magic.

Keep in mind, that most of the time I've been debating with you about the Demon Hunter has been relevant to your claims that they won't happen because of Warcraft 3 spells. That is just utter bullshit.

- - - Updated - - -

Then why do people keep saying it has to be an agile melee fighter? Who says it can't be a warlock spec if it ISN'T going to be the Warcraft III hero? Hell, who says it can't be a Tinker spec for all we know, considering what you're basically saying is people aren't asking for the armorless demonic infused badass that is the Demon Hunter?

Nothing says they can't be a Warlock spec, but this is the kicker - Until Blizzard makes Demon Hunters a Warlock spec, they are not Warlocks. Most arguments made have been to illustrate how the two classes are different, since we already have people claiming that they are the same thing. There isn't a high chance that they will become their own class, but Demon Hunters still maintain a separate identity from Warlocks.

Being an agile melee warrior is one of the indications of difference. This is the Demon Hunter in its Warcraft 3 form. The Demon Hunter in WoW has not been defined. If Blizzard decides to give Warlocks a melee Demon Hunter spec, then that becomes WoW's identity of the Demon Hunter.

What makes it a Demon Hunter if it isn't those things? To cry out for a class but have nothing to go off of? People don't just want a class named Demon Hunter to have a class called Demon Hunter, they want a Demon Hunter class because they want to be the dual glaive weilding badasses from Warcraft III. To remove everything that makes a Demon Hunter a Demon Hunter is to make a class that ISN'T a Demon Hunter.

I've addressed this above.

"Anything demon-related is criticized as being too similar to Warlocks. Anything non-demon related is attacked for alienating Demon Hunter identity. In the end, those arguments are only relevant if we were talking about the Warcraft 3 unit becoming a class."

You're assuming the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter as a class in WoW. You're giving no room for anything that is beyond that idea, because any sort of change or growth 'makes a class that ISN'T a Demon Hunter.'

[Belisaurio]

Then why do people keep saying it has to be an agile melee fighter? Who says it can't be a warlock spec if it ISN'T going to be the Warcraft III hero? Hell, who says it can't be a Tinker spec for all we know, considering what you're basically saying is people aren't asking for the armorless demonic infused badass that is the Demon Hunter?

What makes it a Demon Hunter if it isn't those things? To cry out for a class but have nothing to go off of? People don't just want a class named Demon Hunter to have a class called Demon Hunter, they want a Demon Hunter class because they want to be the dual glaive weilding badasses from Warcraft III. To remove everything that makes a Demon Hunter a Demon Hunter is to make a class that ISN'T a Demon Hunter.

You are going really fast.
People enjoyed his aesthetics and his Metamorfosis. Nobody remembered them for his passive or his aura. Like Dks, people enjoyed his resurrection skill (OP...) and his aura, but in WoW they expanded, they removed his "support rol" and created an environment maintaining the same aesthetics. So we want the same in DH.
I don't care if they take out his agi-stat, and create a new passive that transforms his int to "flee" stat or whatever (like enhancements). They will have the same flavor. It's an example.

The main things about DH are really clear: tattoos+blindfold+demonic ulti/transformation/demon released+melee fighter.
All other things can be changed, removed or just redone again to be better themed with Demon Hunter class.

[Thimagryn]

That isn't what you were saying, however. What you were saying is, people do not want the Warcraft III hero, which is not true. What people want is EXACTLY that. They want to wield dual glaives. They want to have blindfolds to show their demonic pact. They want to be shirtless, with arcane runes tatoo'd all across their bodies. Which, in World of Warcraft, just doesn't fit. Armor is a necessity, which hides your runes. There are only so many blindfolds you can give people. Not every weapon you have is going to be a glaive, let alone two of them. NONE of these are class-based in WoW, and NONE of these can be given to a single class.

Because of that, Demon Hunters are extremely unlikely to ever be a spec, let alone a whole class. The flavor of their class does not fit in the way WoW works. The spells of their class have been either given away, changed, or removed. That's not to say they can't have a separate spell with the same feel and different effects, but WHY GO THROUGH THAT TROUBLE when it STILL won't feel like the class people want?

The Warcraft 3 hero is a Glaive-wielding, tattooed male Night Elf with 4 spells, one of which is the ability to change into a Demon. That may be the identity people want maintained IN a playable class, but it is not a WoW class. That is hardly comparable to 100+ spells, 3 specs, Male/Female options, being accessible by multiple races and all the other things that come with being a playable class in WoW. Changes and additions are things that will have to be regarded when expanding on Demon Hunters into playable form, such as using different weapons or wearing armor.

Just read Belisaurio's post above, he makes the same point about what I've said here. What is wanted are the core values, and anything else can be changed. Even if some core values get changed up for the sake of gameplay/design/lore, it could be acceptable as long as the identity of the class honors the Warcraft 3 counterpart in the same way the Death Knight does.

[Thimagryn]

Correct. So why go through the trouble of doing it? You cannot make the Warcraft III hero fit in WoW. A player can never be the exact, spitting image of a Demon Hunter that they want to be. And if it is not, then the Demon Hunter they get will just be a shadow of what people want. A disappointment that does nothing other than prove that feeding the popular vote leads to the destruction of anything cool in the game.

If people want to make a Male Night Elf Demon Hunter that hides their Chestpiece, then they should be given the option to. Just like you can make a Human Death Knight to look as closely as possible to the Warcraft 3 hero. But no class in WoW is a spitting image of their Warcraft 3 counterparts. They are all unique in their own ways, the same way a Gnome Death Knight is still a Death Knight, or a Goblin Shadow Priest is still a Priest. You're using the differences as reasons for it to not exist, when in reality there is room for change and growth beyond the Warcraft 3 identity.

If you would rather see a different class, then I respect your opinion. However, your opinion does not reflect what is possible or impossible. By the fact that GC addressed Demon Hunters shows that there is a demand to see that class in WoW. I'm not disputing whether it is likely to happen or not, since I've said before I think it's not going to happen. I'm disputing your assumption that the only way a Demon Hunter could exist in WoW is if they used the Warcraft 3 class, no changes whatsoever. I believe there is plenty of potential for the class to have an identity that would not conflict with any existing classes yet maintain the Warcraft 3 DH's image.

[Belisaurio]

I'd rather see a well thought out and functional class brought forth, that adds to the already vast repertoire of spells and abilities brought forth by the other 11 classes than yet another dual wield melee class that just happens to have spells, and fails to live up to the expectations of the public. Finding races they can be, abilities and specs they can use that fit the theme, hell, even a reason for people to accept the need for their help! There is too much against and not enough for the Demon Hunter to be a class.

So, you want the same like us. And DH can be that.
I don't see too much against them. I mean:
A melee fighters that focus their minds and body for killing demons. They have something evil inside them, but they aren't evil, they just use this power and release it against demons, because they know that fighting fire with fire is what they chose long years ago (a previous pact that costed his own eyes). They are the last army against demons (or they thing that they are the last)...etc.

You have too many things to go, what type of demon-powers they have? It could change between the demon that you already made the pact. Maybe fel fire (eredar), maybe fire (imps and normal demons), maybe shadow (void-demons), maybe only physical powers (pit lords) or super-human agility (shyvarra), etc... maybe they should have rotations about combos using only magic-damage, or just full hybrid (enhancement shamans), or full physical damage ignoring magic powers (rogue/warrior), or like WC3, they are focused in auras, or maybe dots+combos, or melee-channels, etc... There are too many things, I can't put all of them, and believe me, all devs in Blizzard can do a better brainstorming.

[Teriz]

So, you want the same like us. And DH can be that.
I don't see too much against them. I mean:
A melee fighters that focus their minds and body for killing demons. They have something evil inside them, but they aren't evil, they just use this power and release it against demons, because they know that fighting fire with fire is what they chose long years ago (a previous pact that costed his own eyes). They are the last army against demons (or they thing that they are the last)...etc.

My Monk focuses his mind and body to kill lots of things, including demons. He's also melee, and if so inclined, I can make him a tank using the same gear.

The lore stuff isn't a compelling argument. People role-play that crap with Night Elf Rogues all the time.

Demon Hunters will add nothing new to the game. They will be retreads that simply use a different schools of magic (which ironically isn't very different from existing classes).

[Medivhe]

I have archimonde's , kil'jaeden's and mannoroth's faces and abilities in my talents . IM CONFUSE. am a demon or a demon hunter

[Teriz]

I have archimonde's , kil'jaeden's and mannoroth's faces and abilities in my talents . IM CONFUSE. am a demon or a demon hunter

In early MoP beta, you had Illidan's face in that last tier.

http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...lock_tier6.jpg

Yeah, yet another Illidan-based Warlock ability. No message there... none at all.

[Azalar]

I think they'll eventually split Demonology spec in two, one for actual demon summoning and one for demon hunting. That would make more sense for me than mixing two themes in one. It feels weird, yet cool.

[Thimagryn]

The TYPE of demon magic doesn't change what the abilities will be. They will be instant cast with short cooldowns, usually ranging from 3-15 seconds, with a couple self buffs with 3 minute cooldowns. Sound familiar? Oh wait, that describes almost every other dual wield melee (and some two handed) in the game. Which order you press the buttons in does not add anything gameplay wise, and that's all Demon Hunters can be.

Valid argument, just one that isn't exclusive to Demon Hunters. It's a case for all potential melee (dual wielding or otherwise). There are many that exist already, whether or not we will see more is up in the air. Right now, it would be unlikely.

You can claim lore differences, but not only is the lore shoddy and oddly similar to that of Night Elf Warlocks, it is also never reflected in game. A Rogue's Sinister Strike vs. a Monk's Jab, when you really break it down, are only different via the numbers they put on the board. Are we really going to look at them and say "We could really use another of those spells instead of something interesting."?

Depends on your spectrum of what is interesting or not.

I don't see Death Knights for the guys who use Heart Strike, Death Strike, Plague Strike or whatever other generic abilities they have. I see them for the guys who summon Ghouls, or spread diseases, or pull enemies into close range with a shadowy hand. None of these abilities were reflected in the Warcraft 3 hero unit, they were all created for the WoW Death Knight. This is what the Death Knight's identity became. I expect nothing less if a Demon Hunter class were to be introduced.

[Belisaurio]

My Monk focuses his mind and body to kill lots of things, including demons. He's also melee, and if so inclined, I can make him a tank using the same gear.
The lore stuff isn't a compelling argument. People role-play that crap with Night Elf Rogues all the time.
Demon Hunters will add nothing new to the game. They will be retreads that simply use a different schools of magic (which ironically isn't very different from existing classes).

Like my rogue, and warriors, and Dks, and enhancement Shamans, etc... yes,. that's because you are melee.
And what differences have one melee to other melees? Imagine that you have a demon-entity inside your character's-body. That could be a really awesome difference. Like be an undead-knight with frost magic, or being a elemental master that use the call of elements to help you in melee combat.

Edit (didn't read the last posts sorry):

Demon Hunters can't be more than dual wield melee with spells. They can't be ranged, as it overlaps too far with Hunters and it WOULD be confusing to have two classes named 'Hunter' that use physical range. They can't be spellcasters unless they're a Warlock spec, because then they just WOULD BE WARLOCKS. They can't be healers because how in god's name would a Demon Hunter heal? They can only be what their Warcraft III counterparts are, which is dual wield melee and POSSIBLY evasion tank. Again, you can only do so much with dual wield melee, and evasion tanks were filled by Druids, then Monks.

Why they can't be that? I said only what type of energy could they have. use fire type skills (melee), or shadow (melee), or whatever you want based on what demon took your eyes (pact).
I never talked about being ranged-spell casters. I don't know about healers, maybe If the thematic about them is really good, but I find really difficult to find one. And about dw, I'm with you. But there are some concepts with polearms, so I don't know what type of weapons they should have. For me, dw it's the right path to go, but is just my opinion

[Sukhoi]

Im taking the final say on this.

When warlocks can dual weild, and have melee abilities, they will admittedly be as close to demon hunters as a playable style as we can get. Warlocks use fire and shadow damage, so thats good enough.

My idea:

Fourth Spec: Dark Apotheosis

Grants the abilities already in game, but with a couple of moves like void slash, shadow slash, a damaging interrupt to equal mana drain, or whatever.

The talent spec passively grants dual wielding, attack power equal to spell power or grants attack power from intellect. And passive abilities, like a chance to deal shadowflame damage on hit,an increased dodge chance, and a dodge = extra strike bonus like monks.

They can use demonic fury as a resource, and give them metamorphosis as well, but reduce the damage on spells like shadow bolt and instead give them splash damage.

I dont have a problem with this, and would accept them as the dh playstyle at that point.

[Talen]

DH and warlocks don't share anything outside demon-looking form in one ability (and they are different, one used to be ranged/steroid, and the other one is to transform your caster in a ranged dreadlord character).

They share nothing if you overlook everything DHs have in game. Summoned demons, warlock spell casting abilities, cloth (looking) armour....

Tell you what....give a Warlock dual wield and a balanced melee rotation and then try to point out a meaningful gameplay difference. And they are already at that point - leaving aside pure effectivenes, the major gameplay difference NOW is Warlocks don't have dual wield.

In wc3 they fought were melees.

Did they have ranged spell? Yes. Case closed.

So, there is 0 DH that have a pet-based system in their kit

You seem to ignore the DH who we know DOES control Felhounds.

I can ask the same: You are creating a new expansion; you lost some player-base and need to create a really awesome features to create a good expectation. One of them is a new class (we don't know, but it's a possibility because this threat is about that), so, in case that you chose DH to be the new feature, you just re-edit some skills already ingame (only skills related to NPCs and Boss mechanics that are DH, because there isn't any class already ingame with a good skill kit for DH), or you just create new forms, new visual effects, new rotations for a DH class?

Simple answer. You don't give a DH standalone class at all. It isn't needed. It brings nothing to the game. There is a large crossover with an existing class. There is no major reason to implement it. And asking the same question I did you isn't really giving an answer. There is no viable option for a DH design that doesn't cause problems somewhere.

And this is a good point for me. So when you are talking about warlocks, you have DH in your mind?

I don't associate DHs with fairies. I don't associate Warlocks with guns. I associate both with demons.

I don't see any problem. We have some gaps like (i.e.) a mail-melee user+int user= they can do something like enhancement 2.0 in DH aesthetics.

You can ALWAYS design what is effectively a new class and say its a Demon Hunter.

Why bother? Seriously - why? Noone seems to want to answer that. Why bother with a new class called demon hunter instead of the one players want?

EJL

[Thimagryn]

You can ALWAYS design what is effectively a new class and say its a Demon Hunter.

Why bother? Seriously - why? Noone seems to want to answer that. Why bother with a new class called demon hunter instead of the one players want?

EJL

Again, Strawman argument implying players only want the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter.

Your argument would imply a Tauren Frost DK dual wielding axes isn't a real Death Knight because it alienates Warcraft 3's DK Hero, and that nobody wants that.

[Skayth]

In early MoP beta, you had Illidan's face in that last tier.

http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...lock_tier6.jpg

Yeah, yet another Illidan-based Warlock ability. No message there... none at all.

yep, then they moved warlocks out of melee and began making them as far away from dhs as possible. =D

[Aleksej89]

As said before, implementing DHs would be an interesting but difficult thing to do (compared to other available classes), since blizzard first has to reinvent/expand the new DHs and then separate them from the overlapping classes/specs.
If blizzard does not do it properly, it might even backfire and cause DH fans to hate the new DH in WoW - prompting blizzard to do yet another redesign of DHs.

As long as really easy and time/resource efficient options exist, such as Tinkers/Alchemists, really specialized and expensive (and currently overlapping) classes like the DH are highly unlikely to happen.

[SodiumChloride]

Seriously? This is still going?

The OP is like one of those nutters who see Jesus in a piece of toast ... no point arguing.

[Jtree]

We've be arguing in circles, and no one is going to budge on the details of their arguments. So I'd like to address something that might be at the core of some views.

But isn't that what the people want? The WC3 version of the Demon Hunter?

I think not.

WC3 is an 11 year old RTS that has long since fallen out of the mainstream of gaming. The Burning Crusade ended less than five years ago, and the content remains a (short) element of WoW's leveling process.

I would believe that far more people have played WoW than WC3. Even of folks who played both, a vast majority probably think of fighting Illidan in the Black Temple and watching the BC cinematic when you mention demon hunters. I do not believe that people will be looking for a DH class to exactly represent the old WC3 unit. They'll be looking to play a class built in the image of Illidan, Leotheras, and all those Demon Hunter Initiates folks with good AoE would grind for hours on end. They are the outlines, the prototypes for a WoW DH class: a fast attacking melee who brings fiery, demonic energy and a bare chest to the fight.

Ultimately, I feel new WoW additions of this type will be sourced first in older WoW material, then reach out to the RTSes, books, card games, etc.

Except when Blizzard is creating new lore. The Mantid and Mogu came outta nowhere, and MoP was better for it. We don't know what Blizzard might do, but I would guess that playable demon hunters come with a Legion themed expansion, and anything in that realm ought to be huge.

[Jessicka]

Im taking the final say on this.

When warlocks can dual weild, and have melee abilities, they will admittedly be as close to demon hunters as a playable style as we can get. Warlocks use fire and shadow damage, so thats good enough.

My idea:

Fourth Spec: Dark Apotheosis

Grants the abilities already in game, but with a couple of moves like void slash, shadow slash, a damaging interrupt to equal mana drain, or whatever.

The talent spec passively grants dual wielding, attack power equal to spell power or grants attack power from intellect. And passive abilities, like a chance to deal shadowflame damage on hit,an increased dodge chance, and a dodge = extra strike bonus like monks.

They can use demonic fury as a resource, and give them metamorphosis as well, but reduce the damage on spells like shadow bolt and instead give them splash damage.

I dont have a problem with this, and would accept them as the dh playstyle at that point.

Would this be a tank or DPS spec though? We know now we can't have 2 roles in one tree any longer, and given current status as 'tanky', it would be pretty unthinkable for it to be changed to melee DPS. Where then does that leave players who want the DPS Demon Hunter? Not to mention the contentious issue of new roles for pures, which is as I mentioned before highly contentious. This is why I believe it would be better as a class to stand on its own.