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  1. #761
    Sure they can. That isn't the point. The problem is if you do so, you end up with a DH that has nothing in common with the existing in game DHs except the name.
    The problem is that regardless of anything else, you ARE going to annoy Warlocks by giving Demon Hunters demon themed abilities because Warlocks see that as their balliwick. Their niche. Their flavor.

    Blizzard can ignore that but being blunt - they don't have any reason to do so.
    I never saw a priest wining about paladins. Warlock is the "summoner" archetype in wow. They use demon-theme, but like I said, Paladins and Priest have more in common than DH and Warlock.

    Then you haven't done your research.
    Yeah, since WC3 playing, and I was an active battle.net player until firelord patch;My main army was Orcs & NE, so I played a lot of times with DH.
    I fought all DH in wow too and I have done all quests DH-related.
    I want to ask you why you say that DH are a ranged class? is there any videos or thing or something that explain or give another look to "ranged- DH"??

    So we've gone from "Can't possibly happen" to "Hard to Believe because it doesn't fit in with my personal vision of the class".

    Regardless of the fact that YOU don't see DHs as a pet class, the truth is that in lore they have been shown to be fully capable of doing so. That doesn't mean that Blizzard will develop that ability, but it is one more crossover between the two classes that can't be ignored...no matter what your personal vision states.
    No no, you misunderstood what I was saying. of course that Blizzard can create a new archetype of DH that had 3 pets at time. But the point is that no DH used a pet-based sustem. Let's explain that:
    -First DH/ plot: Illidan in WC3. No signs of pet-battle system. No use of summoning demons/whatever to his main skills-kit. So we can assume that DH didn't have anything pet-slave related.
    -Second DH/ plot: Loramus Thalipedes. A DH quest giver. He had 3 fel hunters near him. The quest involve helping him (resurrect him) and do a long chain to kill some demons. No summon, no pet-battle abilities, nothing to assume that they use a pet-battle system.
    -Third DH/ plot: Vish Kozus. We don't know If he is a true DH, but no pet-battle related quests or demon-slaves
    -Fourth DH/ plot: Theras, Netharel, Alandien and Varedis. Again, a melee-fighter that don't use anything pet-battle related. No summons in their quest-chains.
    -Fifth DH/ plot: Leotheras the Blind. Boss mechanics, he splits his demon-form from his body and summon/call some adds. 1/5 that summon something. I can't call him a pet-battle user however. In his story, he never summon anything.
    -Seven DH / plot: Feronas Sindweller. Quest giver created in cata. No Pet-battle system. He kills demons and nothing more.

    So, I can assume that DH are a melee class that don't have any pet-battle system related. Of course, If Blizzard want, they can turn them in a summoner-fighter, but they never gave them this system and this thematic.

    So either Blizzard create a very different Demon Hunter class that bears little if any resemblence to the existing model (making the entire exercise of developing a class to cater to players who want a DH totally null and void) or it creates a class which shares a large degree of overlap in both toolkit and theme with Warlocks, which will cause Warlocks to be angry at the DHs for stepping on their territory and DHs to be angry for not developing a unique class identity.

    Which of these two options strikes you as viable?

    For me...the answer is neither. Blizzard gains nothing by labelling an entirely new class with no in game history "Demon Hunters" and it is likely to actively avoid ticking off players by designing a class so alike in theme and feel to an existing system. Once we add in that DHs don't bring anything new to the game, that their theme and niche is already filled, and that there are other options Blizzard can explore instead, DHs as a standalone class seem very unlikely.
    If you create a DH, you create all new forms/skills/physics from 0. Look at monks and DKs. They use a completely new mechanics than before, new models (or animations) in all skills, new icons and new rotation. So we can assume that DH should be like them. If they want to implement a demon-form, they need to create a new one. And talking about DH vs warlocks, well I can talk what happened before:
    I'm a shaman, and my main signature was Blood Lust since WC3. What happened to my main signature? They gave to pet and to mage class. And talking about themes, again, I never saw a Paladin healer calling that Holy priest had been steeling their flavor or vice versa. Warlocks have demon-abilitys and they uses curses and pet-battle system to be different than other casters. A new melee character can be different from others melees using demonic powers. I never view them like a warlock class. I only see a similarity when all 2 are in demon form, then yes, we can assume that this two classes have a demonic them behind their backs.

    Because you are trying to compare the identity of one class with another even though the themes for both are based upon different criteria. The origin of the them isn't important....just that it exists.

    Or are you going to try and tell me the Warlock is NOT strongly identified with demons in WoW?

    Warlocks: Theme Demonic/fel energy users. Class type Casters. Summoners. Dot users. Ranged.
    Demon Hinters: Theme Demonic/fel energy users/agility assassins. Class type Fighters. Caster-counters. Melee
    Paladins: Theme Holy energy users. Class type Knights/casters. Melees. Ranged healer.
    Priests: Theme Holy energy users. Class type Ranged Casters. Ranged healers.

    So, what's more "overlapped"? The thematic is about what type of "things" they throw or use, the class type is their function.

    Glyph of Demon Hunting (the tank glyph) turns warlock's Shadow Bolt into some kind of a melee attack with several stacks, as far as i remember?
    That right there is your "melee capability" in Demo warlocks, as far as blizzard is concerned.
    I'm not sure if you read the entire post. DH don't have wings/horns/hoofs. They fight melee, are blind and have tatoos. A big demon that goes melee is not a DH, it's a possible form for one of their CDs/utility skills. And I'm not sure that people know that metamorfosis is a "panic button", not the entire class. Better say that rogues are DH, just buy some dagger with "change on hit" that throw something black demon-related, that's better suited for a DH...

  2. #762
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    Having played the actual spec, I can tell you straight up you forgot critical stuff on the nature side: lightning shield, lighting bolt, chain lightning, earth shock, spirit wolves.
    Not that it matters, because a DH would also have non-fire spells in its arsenal as well.

    Searing flames is a stacking buff, akin to Maelstrom Weapon, which is a major class mechanic and keeps Lightning Bolt among enhancement's top damage abilities.

    I've played the spec over the last four expansions. I understand basic mechanics and theme. It's not "fire-melee" like I was suggesting, it's more of an "elemental warrior". Looking at 25H parses for some of the top shaman in the world, fire appears to make about a third of their total damage, including the elemental pet.
    Again, a Demon Hunter DPS spec would have an entirely fire-based spell book either.


    So to recap: not at all what I imagine a DH Immolation spec. Think searing skin, burning ground, and fiery embers everywhere.

    Of course its not what you imagine. That doesn't change the fact that fire-based melee is a major portion of Enhancement Shaman's DPS. So its already in the game.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-08-08 at 12:27 PM.

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, a Demon Hunter DPS spec would have an entirely fire-based spell book either.
    yeah, like unholy Dk will use int plate and become the ranged plate spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    That right there is your "melee capability" in Demo warlocks, as far as blizzard is concerned.
    To bad you can't use DA in a raid/dungeon because of 500% threat generation.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Not that it matters, because a DH would also have non-fire spells in its arsenal as well.

    Again, a Demon Hunter DPS spec would have an entirely fire-based spell book either.

    Of course its not what you imagine. That doesn't change the fact that fire-based melee is a major portion of Enhancement Shaman's DPS. So its already in the game.
    Yeah, I can pretty much envisage DH using a combination of Fire, Shadow, Arcane and Physical attacks. How is this important though? Loads of classes overlap their damage types, it's like saying we can't have Fire Mages because Destruction Warlocks, or Shadow Priests because Affliction Warlocks, or Balance Druids because Elemental Shaman.

  5. #765
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, I can pretty much envisage DH using a combination of Fire, Shadow, Arcane and Physical attacks. How is this important though? Loads of classes overlap their damage types, it's like saying we can't have Fire Mages because Destruction Warlocks, or Shadow Priests because Affliction Warlocks, or Balance Druids because Elemental Shaman.
    There's more flexibility with casters than melee. Designers have multiple ways to do ranged magic spells. There's only so many ways you can do a spell-based melee spec. Heck, Frost DKs and Enhancement utilize different spell types and people still feel that Enhance and Frost DK are very similar to each other.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrael the Impatient View Post
    I'm not trying to be funny, if you're smart enough, you'll see the same thing I see.
    Blizzard will probably just continue this way with Demonology, for it is the "unofficial" Demon Hunter class.
    you think you're really smart, eh? this really IS funny, but your conclusion has nothing to do with intelligence. it's just your personal opinion and very vague.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There's more flexibility with casters than melee. Designers have multiple ways to do ranged magic spells. There's only so many ways you can do a spell-based melee spec. Heck, Frost DKs and Enhancement utilize different spell types and people still feel that Enhance and Frost DK are very similar to each other.
    Okay, what about Warriors or Rogues against a backdrop of Bear and Cat Druids? Or just Warriors against Rogues, both are physical and use Bleeds. Or even Rogues against UH DKs, since both use Shadow damage? All actually play markedly differently to eachother thanks broadly to their different resource mechanics.

    And for the record, I've never in my life seen anyone compare an Enhancement Shaman with a Frost DK and come to a conclusion of any basis of similarity.

  8. #768
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Okay, what about Warriors or Rogues against a backdrop of Bear and Cat Druids? Or just Warriors against Rogues, both are physical and use Bleeds. Or even Rogues against UH DKs, since both use Shadow damage? All actually play markedly differently to eachother thanks broadly to their different resource mechanics.
    Rogues are different because they use stealth, bleeds, and stuns. Warriors charge in and smash your face. Very different thematic. Unholy is completely different from Rogues because they spread diseases, utilize pets. and can fire off spells, even though both are shadow-based.

    My point is, a Demon Hunter is going to need 3 specs that are different than every other spell melee out there. I don't think you could pull that off. Enhancement and the DKs are the big ones in that case, because they corner the market on DWing spell melee, and those two are already very close.

    And for the record, I've never in my life seen anyone compare an Enhancement Shaman with a Frost DK and come to a conclusion of any basis of similarity.
    Google it. Enhance and Frost DKs are compared to each other constantly.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Heck, Frost DKs and Enhancement utilize different spell types and people still feel that Enhance and Frost DK are very similar to each other.
    No. Not at all.
    Atleast not for me.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Rogues are different because they use stealth, bleeds, and stuns. Warriors charge in and smash your face using bleeds and stuns. Very different thematic. Unholy is completely different from Rogues because they spread diseases, utilize pets. and can fire off spells, even though both are shadow-based.

    My point is, a Demon Hunter is going to need 3 specs that are different than every other spell melee out there. I don't think you could pull that off. Enhancement and the DKs are the big ones in that case, because they corner the market on DWing spell melee, and those two are already very close.

    Google it. Enhance and Frost DKs are compared to each other constantly.
    Just fixed your quote a bit there. Even so, having played Frost since DKs came into the game, and moving to Enhancement in the last expansion because I like the idea of spell melee, but Frost just wasn't 'spelly' enough, I can pretty safely say that those specs feel and play nothing a like. Again, this is due to their resource models.

    You not being able to "think" about a manner of defining DHs doesn't mean others could not either. Tank and Melee DPS are two specs already, you only need a third, likely ranged, but whether that's caster or based on an Elven heritage for ranged weapons is still very much wide open. Just needs some new lore and an NPC to 'follow' like Koltira or Thasaurian.

  11. #771
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Just fixed your quote a bit there. Even so, having played Frost since DKs came into the game, and moving to Enhancement in the last expansion because I like the idea of spell melee, but Frost just wasn't 'spelly' enough, I can pretty safely say that those specs feel and play nothing a like. Again, this is due to their resource models.

    You not being able to "think" about a manner of defining DHs doesn't mean others could not either. Tank and Melee DPS are two specs already, you only need a third, likely ranged, but whether that's caster or based on an Elven heritage for ranged weapons is still very much wide open. Just needs some new lore and an NPC to 'follow' like Koltira or Thasaurian.
    Yeah, anyone can come up with some crackpot way of getting a DH to work in the game. I don't think anyone said that a playable DH is impossible, it certainly isn't. I believe the argument has always been that they're already in the game in a sense. The problem is that Blizzard's interpretation of a playable DH (or some approximation to it) isn't satisfactory to a lot of people, who wanted a melee fighter that uses demonic magic. Unfortunately for them, that was never Blizzard's goal in the first place.

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, anyone can come up with some crackpot way of getting a DH to work in the game. I don't think anyone said that a playable DH is impossible, it certainly isn't. I believe the argument has always been that they're already in the game in a sense. The problem is that Blizzard's interpretation of a playable DH (or some approximation to it) isn't satisfactory to a lot of people, who wanted a melee fighter that uses demonic magic. Unfortunately for them, that was never Blizzard's goal in the first place.
    Blizzard's original goals were also for more asymmetric balance (Shaman Horde only and Paladins Alliance only, different armours used by different numbers of classes/specs/roles - Holy Palas were meant to wear Mail for example). That they may have felt Rogues or Warriors "would suffice" to cover DHs and probably DKs and Monks too; it's quite clear that as time has gone on those classes have developed much stronger identities of their own which now exclude the RTS classes they once covered. That in turn has made room for Monks and DKs and I think DHs and other classes too.

  13. #773
    I like how this thread is about warlocks and DH and no one respond to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by rarhyx View Post
    want to jump again on the train warlocks = demon hunters.
    some say Locks are DH.

    DH -> hunting and killing demons with their(demon) power.
    Locks -> using demons and their magic for their own benefits.

    But if we see what changed every expac with the demononlogy tree it looks like locks got better in controlling demons.

    BC -> locks can control fel guards
    WotLK -> locks copying Illidans meta
    Cata -> no real change(?)
    MoP -> changed the duration of meta with demonic fury (before it was 30 sec iirc) + DA glyph

    need help at the wotlk and cata changes, I'm not a lock player so I don't really know what was changed, did they have melee attacks back then?

    and now we got the greenfire quest.
    the journal of Jubeka Shadowbreaker says:

    Day 36:

    Remarkable! My first attempt to summon a higher order member of the legion failed as spectacularly as planned. The shivarra broke free almost instantly after Kanrethad completed the ritual.

    I expected the frail human to be struck down while I banished the creature. Instead, in the instant that the shivarra's razor-sharp blades sliced through the air, Kanrethad's form shifted and the blades bounced as if striking stone.

    Unlike the typical form of metamorphosis, he did not complete the demonic transformation...

    so in other words Kanrethad used the DA form. but wait, there's more on the page!

    perhaps his research has been more successful than I expected.

    which could be a hint that demonology's meta in the next xpac will be the appearence of DA and making the glyph of DA baseline (it's awesome for solo playing)
    just change colors or size of the wing in both transformations and remove the melee attacks.

    and now it's different from DH's meta.

    but even if DH will not be the next class, this my prediction about walock changes for the next xpac
    Just adding that Demonolgy Locks are summoners.

    to those who say locks are DH because of http://www.wowhead.com/item=45780#created-by-spell

    you probably didn't see that they have also
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=42460 and
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=42465#created-by-spell

    notice how Imp swarm requires Demonology.
    Demo locks are more away from being DH than DK. DK are closer to shamans than a to DH.

    and to those who say locks are representing illidan to much and that makes them DH
    look at the very first DK:
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22871#abilities
    he looks like the warlock T5 PLUS HE EVEN HAS A WARLOCK ABILITY..
    DK WILL GET WARLOCK ABILITIES. UNHOLY WILL BE CHANGED TO CASTER SPEC

  14. #774
    and to those who say locks are representing illidan to much and that makes them DH
    look at the very first DK:
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22871#abilities
    he looks like the warlock T5 PLUS HE EVEN HAS A WARLOCK ABILITY..
    DK WILL GET WARLOCK ABILITIES. UNHOLY WILL BE CHANGED TO CASTER SPEC
    I agree with you, but Teron Gorefiend is an Old DK. Not the new DK modelled in WC3 DKs. They are really different.
    Teron was an Orc warlock controlling the corpse of a Human paladin.
    Dks in this days are a resurrected body's and trained to become part of scourge army. So it's logic to give to old DKs (wc1/2) some abilities similar to warlocks.

    Yeah, anyone can come up with some crackpot way of getting a DH to work in the game. I don't think anyone said that a playable DH is impossible, it certainly isn't. I believe the argument has always been that they're already in the game in a sense. The problem is that Blizzard's interpretation of a playable DH (or some approximation to it) isn't satisfactory to a lot of people, who wanted a melee fighter that uses demonic magic. Unfortunately for them, that was never Blizzard's goal in the first place.
    Just my opinion but I don't see any playable class that has any DH style.
    1-Warlocks have curses, are ranged casters and have a pet-battle system, and their glyph give you a big demon to smash people.
    2-Rogues are close, but they don't have any them related to DH, they aren't tanky and they don't use the same aesthetics or magic skills.
    3-Shamans enhancement are close to what DH could be. They are melee, are more tanky than rogues, use dw and are hybrids beteween physical and magical, but they lose all aesthetics and demon-related things. And of course, they are related to some races and no lore behind to be a demon-haters.
    4-Warriors are iron behemoths with weapons and shields in their backs. They are close to DH because they are melee (smashing things), but they lose all other things (too much armor maybe, weapons specialized, no magic at all, etc...).

    You can argue that we have a demon-user class that had one glyph to become like a demon, and DH had one skill that give some ranged+defensive power and they were demon-like creatures. If you take that like the only thing of what a DH is, then yes, we have a playable DH class in game.

    Edit:
    After reading and playing with warlock's glyph of Demon Hunting; I find that they play like a Dreadlord (Nathrezim in wow) fusioned with a random demon, and they look like a possible demon-form from DH.
    Maybe, If they want to create a demonology spec based on DH for warlocks, they should create a new "normal" form and give them a demon-form in a CD button, take out some Nathrezim abilities (sleep and carrion swarm! why?? they hate demons, they only want to hit them in their heads, not become them and throw the same things!!!) and give something between rogues/warlocks abilities. That should be awesome, if they can maintain the same aesthetics of a DH (tatoos+warloglaves/dw weapons), then they got me!!!!
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-08-08 at 02:26 PM.

  15. #775
    I agree with you, but Teron Gorefiend is an Old DK. Not the new DK modelled in WC3 DKs. They are really different.
    Teron was an Orc warlock controlling the corpse of a Human paladin.
    Dks in this days are a resurrected body's and trained to become part of scourge army. So it's logic to give to old DKs (wc1/2) some abilities similar to warlocks.
    I know. IIRC we, Dk(the player) are third generation of DK's.
    who says if DH (if they will be introduced) are of the same generation as illidan?
    with wrathion taking action now it could be possible that he found a way to train DH, so more will actually pass the training instead of failing.
    that would for example be a reason for a range spec or even heal.

    edit:
    forgot to write in my earlier post:
    those who don't play a lock(like myself) and still say locks are dh
    -> download the ptr and create a lvl 90 lock. than say again they are dh.
    and I'll say it again: actually we can't use DA in a raid or dungeon.
    IF locks should really be DH with DA, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO 500% THRAET INCREASE

    Edit:
    After reading and playing with warlock's glyph of Demon Hunting; I find that they play like a Dreadlord (Nathrezim in wow) fusioned with a random demon, and they look like a possible demon-form from DH.
    Maybe, If they want to create a demonology spec based on DH for warlocks, they should create a new "normal" form and give them a demon-form in a CD button, take out some Nathrezim abilities (sleep and carrion swarm! why?? they hate demons, they only want to hit them in their heads, not become them and throw the same things!!!) and give something between rogues/warlocks abilities. That should be awesome, if they can maintain the same aesthetics of a DH (tatoos+warloglaves/dw weapons), then they got me!!!!
    agree.
    Last edited by rarhyx; 2013-08-08 at 02:55 PM.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Not that it matters, because a DH would also have non-fire spells in its arsenal as well.
    Was just pointing out what you forgot. If you want to argue class mechanics, try to list all of them.

    Again, a Demon Hunter DPS spec would have an entirely fire-based spell book either.
    Logical, but what would it be? Not nature, like the dominant school of shaman damage.

    Of course its not what you imagine. That doesn't change the fact that fire-based melee is a major portion of Enhancement Shaman's DPS. So its already in the game.
    As I said, around a third of a raiding shaman's damage. Give the DH spec a damage mix dominated by fire and physical damage, and they'll look quite different. For starters, I doubt a DH will use a cooldown to turn into an air elemental ascendant like enhancement does.

  17. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That is the biggest hole in your argument. Your claims are irrelevant when considering CAN a Demon Hunter exist within WoW.

    Saying as my point was that I consider a ***WOW*** style DH to be unlikely to be added, I don't see how that claim is irrelevant.


    I've always stated that Blizzard could simply redesign the class to the pooint where i didn't annoy Warlocks.


    The problem is Blizzard isn't likely to do that either....because that would give people something other than a WoW style DH. Why design and build a new class....and then sabotage it by tying it into the existing lore of what would effectively be a totally different class?


    You know what a Paradox is?

    Yeah...except I've never linked the themes because fo the magic they use. That was your point. I've stated they fill different tropes and have different themes. Warlocks have the Demon theme and no matter how you cut it, a Demon Hunter class is going to have a very strong demon based identity, no matter how it is designed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    Completely skipped over the part where I said that, to create a new class, Blizzard will make well over 100 abilities and such. Even if DHs get those two spells, that will be less than 2% of the tool kit. Smaller if you want to count resources, as I would think they'd create something other than mana/demonic fury.

    In many ways, the lesser abilitites don't matter. It is the big, flashy abilitites the contrbute much to the look, feel and theme of a class. Players don't care about the fact that Paladins and Warriors both swing a sword and wear plate, but there is a reason Warriors don't grow wings.


    Your "2%" of the toolkit might be 90% of the flavor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    The problem is, right now they're not. There is no Warlock spec that's melee, dual-wields, has no relation to pets whatsoever, and can be played by night elves, all four of which are the very foundation of the class.

    Which is solved by giving warlocks dual wield, accepting that DHs **DO** use pets and giving NElfs accesss to the spec.


    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    I never saw a priest wining about paladins. Warlock is the "summoner" archetype in wow. They use demon-theme, but like I said, Paladins and Priest have more in common than DH and Warlock.

    That similarity being "They both use Holy Magic" and "They both heal". They do however have different armor types, have very different toolkits, play in very different ways, have different styles of combat and fill different themes.


    The DH and Warlocks share a toolkit, appear to use the same armor type and share a theme. The DH coudl be made to play in a very different way and does have a different style of combat.


    Yeah, since WC3 playing

    Then you should know better.


    I want to ask you why you say that DH are a ranged class?

    Whether you like it or not, DHs have had ranged capability ever since WC3.


    But the point is that no DH used a pet-based sustem.

    ...followed by....


    -Second DH/ plot: Loramus Thalipedes. A DH quest giver. He had 3 fel hunters near him.

    Again, like it or not this shows DHs using demon pets. A Warlock ability. You may not like it, the ability may be rare within DHs but it cannot be denied that it exists and is a capability open to DHs. It does not get wiped from the canon simply because you personally do not think DHs should have that ability.


    If you create a DH, you create all new forms/skills/physics from 0.

    Which choice is valid, likely and viable?.


    1: Design a DH from scratch so it bears no resemblence to the DH in game and doesn't annoy Warlocks. This doesn't annoy Warlock players but it does mean DH Players do NOT get the DH they have been agitating for.
    2: Design a DH based upon the DH in game, This requires you to accept a very large overlap in theme, capabilities, look and toolkit. It gives DH players the DH they want - but also annoys warlock players.


    I'm a shaman, and my main signature was Blood Lust since WC3. What happened to my main signature? They gave to pet and to mage class.

    For gameplay reasons. Is there any gameplay advantage that requires a DH to fix? No...then lets move on.


    The thematic is about what type of "things" they throw or use, the class type is their function.

    Yes..and that's why that them doesn't work. Paladins and priests do not have an identitity based on the type of mgic they throw. It's based upon what they are. What iamge crops into yor midn when you say "Paladins"...its that of the Righteous Warrior. For priests - its going to be "healer". It doesn't really matter what magic type they use not what role they fill or how they fill it.


    At the end of the day, however, the problem is that Demon Hunters bring nothign new to the game. They fill no niche that needs filling. By definition, they will have a strong Demonic theme, which is already occupied by Warlocks. Gameplaywise, there already are AGI based dual wielding melee classes and while you could certainly design one with a different style of play - Blizzard could add that style of play to whatever new class (or even to rogues as part of the revamp) they bring in.


    Add on the gameplay problems - as DHs stand and exist in game, they share a large part of their toolkit with Warlocks, and a smaller part with Rogues.


    What is the point of adding a standalone DH class that adds nothing to the game, isn't needed for any role and whose capabilities already belong to existing classes?

    It's not impossible Blizzard would do it, but I don't see the point of it. Nor do I see Blizzard simply ignoring the Crossover with Warlocks. There is no need or benefit for them to ignore it.


    EJL

  18. #778
    That similarity being "They both use Holy Magic" and "They both heal". They do however have different armor types, have very different toolkits, play in very different ways, have different styles of combat and fill different themes.

    The DH and Warlocks share a toolkit, appear to use the same armor type and share a theme. The DH coudl be made to play in a very different way and does have a different style of combat.
    Are you reading? Maybe I'm really bad writing and thinking in English (sorry, it's not my language).
    DH and warlocks don't share anything outside demon-looking form in one ability (and they are different, one used to be ranged/steroid, and the other one is to transform your caster in a ranged dreadlord character).
    And why you say that DH have the same type of armor? They use tatoos and blindfold!!! I never saw any warlock using this things before!!!

    Whether you like it or not, DHs have had ranged capability ever since WC3.
    Nop. In wc3 they fought were melees. In wow, they are fighting in melee combat. So no, I never saw a spellcaster-DH. Maybe you are confused about DH in Diablo 3 and DH in warcraft. Look in wowpedia or wow wiki, or just play some skirmishes in WC3 and take NE army to know what DH is.

    Again, like it or not this shows DHs using demon pets. A Warlock ability. You may not like it, the ability may be rare within DHs but it cannot be denied that it exists and is a capability open to DHs. It does not get wiped from the canon simply because you personally do not think DHs should have that ability.
    Sorry if this is not the case, but it seems that you are trolling me. So, there is 0 DH that have a pet-based system in their kit, and only 2 (illidan and leotheras) that are bosses and have 1 add-mechanics, and you are assuming that they use pets? There isn't any lore related that explain anything about some DH that had demon slaves to help them killing things, but you are 100% sure that they can use? It's really hard to understand that, I can't say anything, maybe if you have a link or something that explains what you have in mind, we could understand this theory.

    Which choice is valid, likely and viable?.
    1: Design a DH from scratch so it bears no resemblence to the DH in game and doesn't annoy Warlocks. This doesn't annoy Warlock players but it does mean DH Players do NOT get the DH they have been agitating for.
    2: Design a DH based upon the DH in game, This requires you to accept a very large overlap in theme, capabilities, look and toolkit. It gives DH players the DH they want - but also annoys warlock players.
    I can ask the same: You are creating a new expansion; you lost some player-base and need to create a really awesome features to create a good expectation. One of them is a new class (we don't know, but it's a possibility because this threat is about that), so, in case that you chose DH to be the new feature, you just re-edit some skills already ingame (only skills related to NPCs and Boss mechanics that are DH, because there isn't any class already ingame with a good skill kit for DH), or you just create new forms, new visual effects, new rotations for a DH class?
    Like monks or DKs, you create using some previous aesthetics (WC3 pandaren brewmaster and WC3 Death knight) and create all their new rotations, resources, visual effects, pets, etc... That's the most obvious chose.

    Yes..and that's why that them doesn't work. Paladins and priests do not have an identitity based on the type of mgic they throw. It's based upon what they are. What iamge crops into yor midn when you say "Paladins"...its that of the Righteous Warrior. For priests - its going to be "healer". It doesn't really matter what magic type they use not what role they fill or how they fill it.
    And this is a good point for me. So when you are talking about warlocks, you have DH in your mind?
    DemonHunter: http://wowpedia.org/File:Samwise_Demon_Hunter.jpg In game: http://wowpedia.org/File:FeronasSindweller.jpg
    Warlock: http://wowpedia.org/File:Gul%27dan_HoW.jpg In game: http://wowpedia.org/File:Zuluhed.jpg

    Add on the gameplay problems - as DHs stand and exist in game, they share a large part of their toolkit with Warlocks, and a smaller part with Rogues.
    What is the point of adding a standalone DH class that adds nothing to the game, isn't needed for any role and whose capabilities already belong to existing classes?
    It's not impossible Blizzard would do it, but I don't see the point of it. Nor do I see Blizzard simply ignoring the Crossover with Warlocks. There is no need or benefit for them to ignore it.
    I don't see any problem. We have some gaps like (i.e.) a mail-melee user+int user= they can do something like enhancement 2.0 in DH aesthetics.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-08-08 at 05:56 PM.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    In many ways, the lesser abilitites don't matter. It is the big, flashy abilitites the contrbute much to the look, feel and theme of a class. Players don't care about the fact that Paladins and Warriors both swing a sword and wear plate, but there is a reason Warriors don't grow wings.


    Your "2%" of the toolkit might be 90% of the flavor.
    If it's 90% of the DH flavor, it lifts it well above warlocks and would thus differentiate the two a lot more.


    Which is solved by giving warlocks dual wield, accepting that DHs **DO** use pets and giving NElfs accesss to the spec.
    I can't help but think that that is an even bigger design challenge for Blizzard. They had the chance to add Agi cloth when they introduced monks, and they didn't. To make a cloth class a melee DPS, it will take a lot of the stat conversions they seem to be shying away from. Not to mention creating an entire specs worth of new and altered abilities.

    Whether you like it or not, DHs have had ranged capability ever since WC3.
    All magic-wielding melee in WoW has some ranged spells, so this isn't really an issue. It could, in fact, make for an interesting play choice. IMO, there is room in the game for a class or spec that has a melee/ranged toggle. IIRC, boomkins were doing that for a bit early in MoP, though it was due to odd stat, talent, and buff interactions.


    Again, like it or not this shows DHs using demon pets. A Warlock ability. You may not like it, the ability may be rare within DHs but it cannot be denied that it exists and is a capability open to DHs. It does not get wiped from the canon simply because you personally do not think DHs should have that ability.
    Weeeeeell...there is that one quest in Hellfire Peninsula where you have to dig through a goblin mine owner's pet felhunter's poop to get the goblin's shredder keys back. I don't recall him being a lock at all. Felhunters are the most animalistic of demons, perhaps they are trainable by anyone willing.


    1: Design a DH from scratch so it bears no resemblence to the DH in game and doesn't annoy Warlocks. This doesn't annoy Warlock players but it does mean DH Players do NOT get the DH they have been agitating for.
    2: Design a DH based upon the DH in game, This requires you to accept a very large overlap in theme, capabilities, look and toolkit. It gives DH players the DH they want - but also annoys warlock players.
    1. Dual wielding, fire and shadow and arcane powered, blind, demon-morphing, hero class. Lots of room to define all those in a fresh way.

    2. Everything Blizzard does annoys someone. That doesn't stop them from doing it.


    Now, I've already described giving a DH an entire Immolation spec, pulling it well away from the one lone spell of similar name that locks have. Metamorphosis for the DH could be as far different. For an Immo spec, it could turn into a fire demon - looking and functioning nothing like the lock spell. A tanking DH could have a "void" meta as their shieldwall counterpart, with an appearance more akin to a voidwalker.

    Another option could be to turn meta into a stance/form, more like a warrior or druid, conferring different benefits for different parts of a fight.

    My point is, there's a lot of open room to develop a DH class, functionally and thematically.

  20. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gereorth666 View Post
    Guys guys.. So.. Guys! Follow me on this.. ! .. You know hunters, guys, right? TRACKING! Hunters, tracking.. Demon Tracking.. Hunters Demon Tracking.. Tracking, hunting.. Demon Hunting.. Hunter, demon hunting..

    I THINK I'M UNTO SOMETHING!
    yeah this could be S******!



    ont: Its not the same thing. Demon Ranger will come as its own class when its ready.
    There is no such thing as "ability bloat" just l2fp.

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