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  1. #881
    @ toomes211

    The Demon Hunter Class

    Many of us want to see is the Demon Hunter properly represented in World of Warcraft as a playable class. The reasons differ among fans, but it boils down to a few main reasons, in my opinion.

    1) Popularity

    The Demon Hunter is an iconic class in Warcraft. Illidan is instantly recognizable worldwide, one of the biggest faces of Warcraft alongside Arthas and Thrall. The design aesthetic of the tattooed, blind Night Elf stands out among the classic fantasy tropes we find throughout the series. The class hasn't been around for a long time, but it has definitely made its mark in the Warcraft universe. Even someone who had rudimentary knowledge of Warcraft could point out a Demon Hunter. It should be simple to say, people want to play a Warglaive-wielding badass.

    2) Identity

    I would not be opposed to having Warlocks become Demon Hunters if Blizzard made it so. I would welcome it just as any other change, such as allowing new race/class combos in Cataclysm. This being said, I would rather see them as their own class, or not included at all before that happened. The reasoning is simple - Demon Hunters have their own identity.

    Beyond visual design, there is one thing makes them instantly memorable - the fact that they have made great sacrifices to gain power to fight evil. Unlike any other hero or class in the game, they have made irreversible changes to their bodies and souls. This is something that is iconic to the class, and we wish to see it honoured if they become playable.

    Imagine suggesting Death Knight as a playable Spec for an existing class. Say the idea was for Death Knights to be a Paladin spec, because in lore they were corrupted Paladins. Shadow priests worked out fine, so 'Shadow Paladins' could work too, right? But no matter how you cut it, Death Knights are undead, and it would be impossible to represent their irreversible nature through a spec. This is also what makes Demon Hunters unique, they are beyond 'mortal'.

    3) Theme

    Demons play a huge part in Warcraft's history. They are the reason Medivh opened the Dark Portal, the reason the Orcs became warmongers, the reason the Scourge was created, and most importantly the reason why the world was torn apart during the War of the Ancients. While there have been other villains throughout the course of history, none have the high-standing impact that the Demons do. With each new Warcraft game, we have been exposed to more and new types of demons. They're a persistent threat to the entire world of Azeroth.

    Lets face it, we know the Legion will be coming back. It's inevitable that they will be invading again, and that we will be taking the fight to their doorstep. In context to all that is and will be happening, the Demon Hunter fits in the best with a Legion-centric expansion.


    What Demon Hunter fans expect

    I've explained why we want to see Demon Hunters as their own class, now I will address the other half of the argument; what we realistically expect.

    With so much debate in support of a Demon Hunter class, it is easy to view the enthusiasm as an expectation. This is a mistaken notion. What we want to see is not what we expect to happen. Ultimately our goals are the same as any others, to see classic Hero represented in WoW. The Death Knights got their way in Wrath of the Lich King. The next most identifiable class in Warcraft 3 is without a doubt the Demon Hunter. We simply want them to have a greater presence in WoW.

    Warlocks are spellcasters who have delved into the dark arts. They are summoners. Even if they have the same motivations as a Demon Hunter, they will still represent different values. If Blizzard does decide to make Warlocks become Demon Hunters (or vice versa), then that's fine; but until that happens they are not the same class. We, as Demon Hunter fans, see a clear line of separation between the two classes. It is a very jarring notion to assume that they are the same because of similarities; the way one might say a Paladin is a Priest because of Holy spells.

    The Demon Hunter will not exist

    I don't believe the Demon Hunter will be in World of Warcraft in any playable form. The main reasons I have seen are:

    1) No room for more Melee. There is a clear saturation of melee classes in the game, and we certainly do not need more.
    2) Potential for new themes. We should be seeing something that hasn't been covered by existing classes.
    3) Filling in the gaps. Whatever the class may be, it should fill the design needs of Blizzard. If another Int Plate user or Physical Ranged class is what's needed, then it should be made.

    These are a few of the main reasons why I think that Demon Hunters are simply not plausible.

    The Demon Hunter can not exist

    And this leads us to why we fans are still here.

    While there are many of us who don't think this will happen, there are others who are making the argument that Demon Hunter class could or should not exist. I personally believe that anything is possible, and Blizzard has shown us time and time again that they can make any concept work. They have made Blue space goats/pre-demons a core part of the Alliance. They allowed the Elves to join the Horde. They've made the Scourge Death Knights playable for both factions. They've even created an entire expansion about Pandas. The idea that anything can not happen because it hasn't happened yet is a fallacy.

    We can try to follow the patterns as closely as we try, but we won't get any closer to predicting the next expansion, or the next race, or even the next class. Simply said, Blizzard is unpredictable. We can get close to the mark by following the patterns, but ultimately Blizzard can throw us all on a loop at any given time. I do believe the Tinker currently has the best chance at becoming a reality, but even then we have had just as much hint for a Timewalker/Dragon-based class or again, the Demon Hunter. Only time will prove what classes will become a reality.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-10 at 08:28 AM.

  2. #882
    High Overlord toomes211's Avatar
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    It's impossible to deny the instantly recognizable archetype of the demon hunter, that much is certainly true. The question is, how do we make their game play compellingly different from a warlock, or a rogue, or a monk's, without gutting those classes of abilities they've grown to love and rely upon? The most obvious and egregious offense would be to take all the demon-hunter themed abilities from warlock and give them to demon hunters.

    Now, I'm not completely against demon hunters. Not at all - I think they could have been implemented as a class that's unique and compelling as it's own right - but all the niches they could have filled in this manner have been filled since. Death Knight's have provided a melee DPS class that relies heavily upon diseases, control, and spells, similar to how I imagine a demon hunter would be in a DPS spec. Replace diseases with burns, magical dots. Their tanking niche has been dominated by monks, and to a lesser extent druids. Evasion tanking, using damage reduction to shrug off blows they should not be able to survive.

    Honestly, the lore reasons are the weakest of the reasons I gave - except that now Demon Hunters feel more like a subset of warlocks than they do their own class. Frankly, I'd be overjoyed if we say 4th lock spec that was literally a demon hunter tank spec - and a tinker class in the next xpac.

    But that last bit is just my opinion :P

  3. #883
    The Lightbringer NatePsychotic's Avatar
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    If I can't have my Demon Hunter, I'll become one for 5 minutes. Q.Q

    Demon Hunter's Aspect

  4. #884
    Creating a fel-based melee spec isn't a problem. If you look at how Frost was handled for Death Knights and how it's different from a Mage, that's pretty much all that needs to be said. No one would contend that Frost DK's are too similar to Mages, or Shamans who use Frost spells. The Demon Hunter is also said to be closest to Fury Warrior playstyle. Blizzard doesn't really consider the Rogue or Monk comparable.

    The Demon Hunter would likely be a Dodge-tank, but there are many different ways to approach this. I've even came up with examples of gameplay, such as using Phase Shift (Warcraft 3 Faerie Dragon ability) to 'dodge' attacks by shifting dimensions, or they could be more like a Runemaster, a brawling tank. There's also using Demon Form for high regeneration. Evasion is only one aspect of the Demon Hunter's identity. If even the Warlock has multiple forms of tanking (DA demon form, Void Walkers) I'm sure they can create something new and interesting.

    It's very difficult to address a Demon Hunter WoW class simply because it's full identity (3 specs, full list of abilites, unique mechanics) does not exist yet. And like a great man once said, "People don't know what they want until you show it to them".

  5. #885
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Warlocks are spellcasters who have delved into the dark arts. They are summoners. Even if they have the same motivations as a Demon Hunter, they will still represent different values.
    Yes...and those values are lore based. Since no other class takes lore into consideration, why should this...assuming this is the route Blizzard goes.

    If Blizzard does decide to make Warlocks become Demon Hunters (or vice versa), then that's fine; but until that happens they are not the same class. We, as Demon Hunter fans, see a clear line of separation between the two classes. It is a very jarring notion to assume that they are the same because of similarities; the way one might say a Paladin is a Priest because of Holy spells.
    Is it as jarring as the difference in motivations between an Arms and Fury warriors? Between Blood Knights and Paladins? Between Holy and Shadow Priests? Paladins and Priests share a school of magic, but - gameplaywise - very little else.
    I don't believe the Demon Hunter will be in World of Warcraft in any playable form.
    I don't think it'll be there as a standalone class. Having said that, it is recognisable and there would be marketing possibilities. Those can be filled and addressed ny expanding upon the existing Warlock capabilities. They can be handled better with a standalone class but I don't think a standalone class is viable. I think expanding upon the existing Warlock capabilities will be just as easy as way to bring DHs into the game as anything else....barring something exotic such as dual classing.

    EJL

  6. #886
    High Overlord toomes211's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Creating a fel-based melee spec isn't a problem. If you look at how Frost was handled for Death Knights and how it's different from a Mage, that's pretty much all that needs to be said. No one would contend that Frost DK's are too similar to Mages, or Shamans who use Frost spells. The Demon Hunter is also said to be closest to Fury Warrior playstyle. Blizzard doesn't really consider the Rogue or Monk comparable.

    The Demon Hunter would likely be a Dodge-tank, but there are many different ways to approach this. I've even came up with examples of gameplay, such as using Phase Shift (Warcraft 3 Faerie Dragon ability) to 'dodge' attacks by shifting dimensions, or they could be more like a Runemaster, a brawling tank. There's also using Demon Form for high regeneration. Evasion is only one aspect of the Demon Hunter's identity. If even the Warlock has multiple forms of tanking (DA demon form, Void Walkers) I'm sure they can create something new and interesting.

    It's very difficult to address a Demon Hunter WoW class simply because it's full identity (3 specs, full list of abilites, unique mechanics) does not exist yet. And like a great man once said, "People don't know what they want until you show it to them".
    The difference there is that Frost Death knights dont use mages most memorable and powerful spells in their baseline rotation. In fact, no other class has this issue.

    And you could make another dodge tank, the question I would pose is that with several already existing, is that really -necessary?

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Yes...and those values are lore based. Since no other class takes lore into consideration, why should this...assuming this is the route Blizzard goes.
    Lore is the biggest separation between the two classes. Lore is also the only reason for people who believe spellcasters can melee if they could dual wield, or that a melee class is a caster because they have some ranged abilities.

    Is it as jarring as the difference in motivations between an Arms and Fury warriors? Between Blood Knights and Paladins? Between Holy and Shadow Priests? Paladins and Priests share a school of magic, but - gameplaywise - very little else.
    Motivation has little to nothing to do with it. It is class identity. Sacrificial pacts and ritual blinding is not a specialization. It's also something that is very integral to the Demon Hunter's image. In the same vein, I wouldn't consider Death Knights the same if they weren't undead.

    No one is asking for the Demon Hunter as a spec. There is no Demon Hunter gameplay, so assuming that making them Warlocks is something that people want is a misunderstanding of why fans want playable Demon Hunters in the first place.

    I don't think it'll be there as a standalone class. Having said that, it is recognisable and there would be marketing possibilities. Those can be filled and addressed ny expanding upon the existing Warlock capabilities. They can be handled better with a standalone class but I don't think a standalone class is viable. I think expanding upon the existing Warlock capabilities will be just as easy as way to bring DHs into the game as anything else....barring something exotic such as dual classing.

    EJL
    The warlock needs to maintain it's own identity, not by taking the form of another's. I wouldn't want a Warrior to be any more of a Blademaster or Mountain King if it meant alienating some of their core values. Warlocks need to be respected as what they are. I don't really know how many people who are pushing for a Warlock DH spec actually play Warlocks, but I feel like it's an idea imposed on them without respecting it as a spell-casting class.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-10 at 09:38 AM.

  8. #888
    Agree with this post pretty much up to here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The Demon Hunter will not exist

    I don't believe the Demon Hunter will be in World of Warcraft in any playable form. The main reasons I have seen are:

    1) No room for more Melee. There is a clear saturation of melee classes in the game, and we certainly do not need more.
    2) Potential for new themes. We should be seeing something that hasn't been covered by existing classes.
    3) Filling in the gaps. Whatever the class may be, it should fill the design needs of Blizzard. If another Int Plate user or Physical Ranged class is what's needed, then it should be made.
    I don't believe in a computer game, "need" is a meaningful argument. If there's demand for another melee spec of a given ilk, then make it. No need for more melee was the argument against Monks, but we got Monks. Classes/Specs aren't really about the 'need' part of the game, the things we need are the things that keep us playing; the little inconveniences like Valor Capping, Consumables etc that we log in for outside raid times.

    On your second point, I think Demon Hunters, while 'Old', could offer a lot of new. Death Knights were 'Old', but through the Ebon Blade offered a whole lot of 'New' throughout the most popular expansion the franchise has had.

    Going back again to 'Need'. From the outset, the balances of gear types, weapon use, even class availability to faction in classic - and not just in WoW, but in every game Blizzard have created; asymmetric balance has been an important keystone of their design. There simply is, and never has been an aim for balancing out who needs what gear. Things have certainly been streamlined over the years, but resistence at key points has always remained - we now have 1 class that uses Spirit Cloth after the reversal of Mage/Warlock desire for it at the start of Cataclysm as a good precedent for demonstrating that.

    All in all, a class that would prove popular in spite of a compartmentalised "need" defined by some kind of OCD based on role or gear use is exactly what the game needs, far more than it needs a class developed purely on the basis that is soaks up a certain type of loot. We already know from Death Knights and Monks that what role is picked up by the player, is going to be based on whether the player themselves likes to Tank, Heal, Ranged or Melee; and they will gravitate toward the class that best fits their concept of filling that role.

  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by toomes211 View Post
    The difference there is that Frost Death knights dont use mages most memorable and powerful spells in their baseline rotation. In fact, no other class has this issue.

    And you could make another dodge tank, the question I would pose is that with several already existing, is that really -necessary?
    No class has that issue period. The Demon Hunter of Warcraft 3 had 4 abilities; Mana Burn, Immolation, Evasion and Metamorphosis. Would you consider any of those rotational abilities? You have to really break down how a Frost DK is different from a mage. Why are they different? It's because the Frost DK is based on the Death Knight's melee abilities and rotation, with Frost added in as flavour. In that respect, it has no relationship to the mage at all.

    With the Demon Hunter, if it's rotation is based on using Void Strike, Shadow Spark, Fel Slash, Blade of Darkness and Soul Crush, then it really has nothing to do with a Warlock does it? But as long as he has an ability to burst into flames (Engulf), disrupt casters (Spellbreak/Manaburn/Mindsnap) and turn into a demon (Immanence) then they'll maintain the spirit of a Demon Hunter.

    As for the tank question - what about making them a Parry tank? Warriors and Paladins block, Druids and Monks dodge, Death Knights and Demon Hunters parry. It could fit, right?
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-10 at 09:58 AM.

  10. #890
    High Overlord toomes211's Avatar
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    Jessicka -

    I don't think there's much demand for another melee spec given the sheer number we have now. I did a quick poll of my guild and Btag friends. earlier, and here's the results.

    1 person is excited about a possible demon hunter.
    5 people would "Roll one, but i'm not gonna get it past level 40 probably" or something similar.
    22 people were indifferent.
    7 people said they would quit if they were added. I'm sure it's melodrama, but you get what kind of mindset they have about it.

    Given that one person out of 35 is actually excited for it, im not sure where this demand is. I'm afraid it might be a small, vocal community of wow players that wants it.

    Now, I know 35 is hardly a good scientific pool of data, but...I tend to agree. I dont want another melee DPS, especially one that feels so similarly themed to a class we have.

  11. #891
    It's still a case that we don't have rounded identity of the Demon Hunter, so we can only assume so much.

    I want it for the lore reasons, but it won't stop people from identifying it as a Melee Warlock. There's really nothing to say otherwise. The Demon Hunter right now is restricted to the image of the Warcraft 3 Hero or Illidan. I wouldn't want that as a new class. I'm more interested in its potential.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-10 at 10:25 AM.

  12. #892
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Frost DKs are based on the Lich hero. A mixture of frost and shadow magIc.

  13. #893
    The Patient
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    I've always thought of them more like shamans than death knights. Most likely one spec caster-melee, one caster-ranged, and most likely tank instead of heal. Unless burning eyes heals now. I haven't played in a while. Pures are kind of an outdated concept, so I don't see another one of those showing up, ever.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)
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  14. #894
    Quote Originally Posted by toomes211 View Post
    Jessicka -

    I don't think there's much demand for another melee spec given the sheer number we have now. I did a quick poll of my guild and Btag friends. earlier, and here's the results.

    1 person is excited about a possible demon hunter.
    5 people would "Roll one, but i'm not gonna get it past level 40 probably" or something similar.
    22 people were indifferent.
    7 people said they would quit if they were added. I'm sure it's melodrama, but you get what kind of mindset they have about it.

    Given that one person out of 35 is actually excited for it, im not sure where this demand is. I'm afraid it might be a small, vocal community of wow players that wants it.

    Now, I know 35 is hardly a good scientific pool of data, but...I tend to agree. I dont want another melee DPS, especially one that feels so similarly themed to a class we have.
    That kind of straw poll is pretty much what I'd expect. I'd probably expect more than 7 of those to have said they'd quit if Pandaren were added. The real 'proof' usually comes in when we see what the class can do, how well it plays and how cool it looks when you see someone else playing it well.

    My own personal feeling is that Rangers would be more popular as the "next class", it's not something I think I'd even play but I definitely get the impression they'd be very popular in spite of we already have a ranged weapon user, it'd be too similar to one or more of the three Hunter specs. I get that same thing with Demon Hunters; even though I like casters so it's unlikely I'd roll one unless they got a caster spec as Agility tanking doesn't appeal much either.

    The point I'm making though is that how popular it would prove is much more important than just filling in some objective view of what's missing in the armour, role, and spec collection line up. Designing a class specifically to fit a certain compartmentalised, ordered ideal just isn't necessarily what people are going to go for or prove popular. That's why compartmentalisation and strictly ordered and symmetrically balanced armor types and class roles have never been a part of the game.

  15. #895
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Frost DKs are based on the Lich hero. A mixture of frost and shadow magIc.
    Lichs didnt dual wield last time i checked. The only move they shared was death and decay.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post

    No one is asking for the Demon Hunter as a spec.
    I kinda am :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  16. #896
    I don't think enough or most people are thinking big picture here. The two popular choices are Ranger (or dark) and Demon Hunter. I say we could have both, just make those their own spec's. They both could fit a class kit pretty nicely, and made as a their own spec vs an entire class and you wouldn't have a lot of issues that come up when people argue against them.
    Aku, Soku, Zan

  17. #897
    Immortal Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    On the other hand, no other class concept has so much lore, presence, and fame. Not your tinkers, or my dragonsworn, or the time walkers that might be getting teased in the new patch. Illidan's return and a demon hunter class would draw a hell of a lot more attention from former players than any other story Blizzard could possibly add, IMO.
    That's generally your opinion. I'm willing to bet that 80% of players have no clue what a DH even is, or even know or care about DH lore. Heck, I played WoW from the beginning, and been playing Warcraft since WC2, and I pretty much ignored DH lore until this past year. The Demon Hunter was one of my favorite WC3 heroes to boot.

    None of your reasons matter much when it comes to class implementation. What appears to matter is uniqueness, flexibility (large archetype), and ties to WC3. In that sense, the DH is not unique, not flexible, and it's ties to WC3 are present in existing classes.

    Of the classes you mentioned, only the Tinker fits the bill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    Lichs didnt dual wield last time i checked. The only move they shared was death and decay.
    Shadow Hunters and Farseers don't use shields or DW, that doesn't change the fact that the Shaman class was based on them.

    Btw, the same applies to Demon Hunters and Warlocks.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-08-10 at 03:35 PM.

  18. #898
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Shadow Hunters and Farseers don't use shields or DW, that doesn't change the fact that the Shaman class was based on them.

    Btw, the same applies to Demon Hunters and Warlocks.
    Once again, find a source that demon hunters = warlocks. Stop trolling. Far seers are obvious. Shadow hunters are obvious. Same play style and same moves. Dks dont have the same playstyle of lichs. And warlocks dont have the playstyle of dhs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That's generally your opinion. I'm willing to bet that 80% of players have no clue what a DH even is, or even know or care about DH lore. Heck, I played WoW from the beginning, and been playing Warcraft since WC2, and I pretty much ignored DH lore until this past year. The Demon Hunter was one of my favorite WC3 heroes to boot.

    None of your reasons matter much when it comes to class implementation. What appears to matter is uniqueness, flexibility (large archetype), and ties to WC3. In that sense, the DH is not unique, not flexible, and it's ties to WC3 are present in existing classes.

    Of the classes you mentioned, only the Tinker fits the bill.
    This is all wrong. Death knights were the most popular and wanted class in the warcraft universe. Dont ask for a poll or source. Youve said it before.

    Pandaren were also hugely asked for since the april fools joke, and monks were perfect to add because every game has a fighter type and people love the brewmaster. For the rest of the parts of the monk class, windwalker and mistweavers didnt come from wc3. So to say wc3 needs a tie is kind of null at this point.

    Lore matters a lot. The class has to tie in with the expansion. With death knights, Arthas was raising them and they broke free. With monks, the secrets of pandaren martial arts were passed down. The wc3 style death knight wasnt flexible at all, but they still added it. JTrees right. Tinkers wouldnt bring back subs. A lot of players know what demon hunters are. All of the warcraft players do. And a major amount would come back because of the class. Blizzard wouldnt add a class that only like 26 people from mmo champion would play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  19. #899
    Warchief Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    For all the people who actually think Demon Hunters will be a class in wow, please, tell me what the classes main abilities will be...
    Synek - best rogue in the world
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  20. #900
    The Lightbringer nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    Once again, find a source that demon hunters = warlocks. Stop trolling. Far seers are obvious. Shadow hunters are obvious. Same play style and same moves. Dks dont have the same playstyle of lichs. And warlocks dont have the playstyle of dhs.
    Shaman pulled from a ton of orc units: Shaman (duh), Witch Doctor, Far Seer, and Shadow Hunter. All of them are separate actual classes, but they do all wield shamanistic magic. Obviously things don't copy exactly: for instance Far Seer has Earthquake as an Elemental signature move and Feral Spirit as Enhance. DK pulled mostly from Death Knight (duh), Lich, and Necromancer. While they don't cast the same spells by name, Frost tree is based off of the Lich hero.

    Warlocks pulled some from the Warlock NPC units (you only played the orcs during the campaign), Demon Hunter, Pit Lord, Dreadlord. Ironically, most of their spells did in fact simply come from the Burning Legion units. The Demon Hunter lore-wise is more of an anti-Burning Legion fighter who also "borrows" power from the Burning Legion, so that much they two classes have in common.

    Also note Illidan went through several Lore descriptions but his actual World of Warcraft incarnation was mostly a fire/shadow/warlock magic user.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    Tinkers wouldnt bring back subs. A lot of players know what demon hunters are. All of the warcraft players do. And a major amount would come back because of the class. Blizzard wouldnt add a class that only like 26 people from mmo champion would play.
    Demon Hunter could bring back subs, but its implementation would determine whether those people make it past beta. I think people who left are tired of perceived (whether actual or not) broken promises.

    ---

    Hypothetical. If you made Warlocks into Demon Hunters, one way of "explaining" via Lore would be that they stole Illidan's DH-training secrets from the Black Temple as an afterthought while doing that little fight against Kanrethad.

    It would be a little disappointing not to see DH as a class on its own, but I feel it would steal a lot of warlock players in the same way that monks stole from rogues. I know if that class had existed on Day 1, it would have been my main (big DH player in WC3).

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