Page 48 of 49 FirstFirst ...
38
46
47
48
49
LastLast
  1. #941
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,028
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    See where I'm going with this? If we have 2 specs already covered for Demon Hunters, why not go all out for a new class? It is afterall a bit too much to ask for two new specs for Warlocks.
    How is a new class versus remaking two warlock specs (effectively a "new" class) worse for non-warlocks? It just means that instead of having to level from scratch, you can pick up a perhaps-abandoned toon and level it instead?

    Either way I think Blizzard could have done more support for this but basically they missed their chance. Not only that, but "hybridizing" warlocks, while it might seem to leave other pures in the dark, would actually have paved the way to fix them a lot too.

    Besides warlocks anyway, it seems most pures are not doing so hot class-wise.

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You're ignoring the big question - Who is asking for a Demon Hunter spec for Warlocks?
    Specifically? Noone. The possibility and linkage has been mentioned, but the general call has been for a standalone player class.

    Which is what you and others DO wish to see.

    It is NOT, however, what we have. Which is the Demon Hunter class effectively absorbed into Warlocks.

    A Warlock with a Tanking or Melee spec has little to do with being a Demon Hunter. You are mixing two arguments up because you see it as being convenient.
    No. I see it as reflecting reality.

    Warlocks....right now, in game...have everything that makes a Demon Hunter a Demon Hunter. Do they have a spec called Demon Hunter? Are they called Demon Hunters in game? No. Does that remove or alter the fact that Warlocks have everything that you need for a Demon Hunter? No...it doesn't. They aren't viable in that role, but gameplaywise...they already are Demon Hunters.

    And I don't see that as having much chance of changing.

    It's not a reason why it can not happen. It's a reason why it should not. Warlock Spec advocates are assuming that Demon Hunters have no lore other than a motivation to fight demons.
    By the same argument, Arms and Fury warriors should be different classes. The BElf Blood Knight should not be tied into the Paladin class. Shadow should be split from Holy. And so on on.

    You keep missing the point - lore differentials such as the ones you mention and state are reason enough to keep the classes separate are IGNORED in every other class. They are meaningless.

    But you, and others keep insisting lore and backstory are reason enough to make DHs a totally separate class.

    The short answer is....they aren't. Lore provides exactly as much validation for making DHs a separate class as it does for every other class. None.

    Would DHs have a better backstory if kept separate. Sure....but the same can be said for every single spec in the game. When the differences end up being lore based...as they essentially are right now...then the argument for a dedicated class doesn't exist.

    Expertise is required for any and every melee class.
    And yet, there are ways around that. Suppose...as another possibility...if instead of treating melee attacks as spells, Blizzard went ahead with its long considered revamp and removed Hit and Expertise? What if Spirit converted to both Hit and Expertise? What if Blizzard revamped gear so AGI cloth was available? Or gave priests a melee DPS role based on AGI as well? And so on.

    There is work involved in making Warlocks viable in a melee role, yes. That doesn't make the role impossible.

    And until Blizzard goes out of their way to say they are exactly the same
    Lorewise? They are different? Gameplaywise....Warlocks ARE Demon Hunters.

    There is lore explaining what Blood Knights and Sunwalkers are. They're simply represented in the game as Paladins, despite their differences.
    Precisely the point. Despite the difference in lore, motivations, story, etc...they still end up represented as Paladins. And if Demon Hunters were represented in game as Warlocks? After all, right now they share a toolkit to a great degree, they have a very similar theme, they share a look...

    There is no lore stating that Demon Hunter are Warlocks.
    There's very little lore for DHs at all. What we have is a Warlocks gameplay and a Warlocks game content.

    What I can do with Warlocks is equip the Challenge armor and gain Illidans tattoos and horns.
    I can equip a sword which Demon Hunters can use.
    I can change into a Demon which Demon Hunters can do.
    I can cast Demon based shadow/fire spells which Demon Hunters can do.
    I can rush into melee and hit with a sword just like Demon Hunters do
    I can use the Glyph of Demon Hunting so I can go hunt demons...just like Demon Hunters do.

    What I, as a Warlock, can't do that Demon Hunters can is...dual wield. I'm also not that good at melee...but I can still do it.

    Are Demon Hunters the same as Warlocks in lore? No...they aren't.
    Does that matter when Warlocks already ARE Demon Hunters in all but name? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    While it's entirely possible that Demon Hunter as a Warlock spec could be for tanking, I don't think that's very likely. Consider the players who want it, we've already established are likely playing Rogues or Warriors for their Dual Wielding meleeness.
    Exactly. There already are DW melee DPS specs. A new one isn't needed. Granted, if we were to get a standalone class I expect a DPS role would be there; but if its attached to the Warlock class then all that is needed is to stick with the existing tanking archetype DHs already fill.

    I think they'd feel somewhat cheated if the 'true' Demon Hunter was given to Warlocks, and unable to be used for DPS (and unable to be a Night Elf.
    My own thinking is that were Blizzard to go this route, what we'd see would be Night Elf Demon Hunters playing the same role as Tauren Sunwalkers or BElf Blood Knights.

    They'd simply be Demon Hunters in name but Warlocks....and NElf Warlocks at that...gameplaywise. Just as a Tauren Paladin is a Sunwalker, a NElf Warlock would be a Demon Hunter. A human Warlock might be able to access the DH spec...but he'd still be a mere Warlock.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-08-10 at 10:50 PM.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    They'd simply be Demon Hunters in name but Warlocks....and NElf Warlocks at that...gameplaywise. Just as a Tauren Paladin is a Sunwalker, a NElf Warlock would be a Demon Hunter. A human Warlock might be able to access the DH spec...but he'd still be a mere Warlock.

    EJL
    But an Affliction or Destruction Nelf Warlock would be a fucking aberation. They would become Satyr, that's just how it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Exactly. There already are DW melee DPS specs. A new one isn't needed. Granted, if we were to get a standalone class I expect a DPS role would be there; but if its attached to the Warlock class then all that is needed is to stick with the existing tanking archetype DHs already fill.
    Need is irrelevant, and in any case entirely subjective. We didn't need Monks or DKs, but we got them anyway. We certainly didn't need Spirit being removed as a relevant stat for Mages and Warlocks, but it was leading to Spirit Cloth only being usable by one class just to fly in the face of that need for balance.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-08-10 at 11:04 PM.

  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    But an Affliction or Destruction Nelf Warlock would be a fucking aberation. They would become Satyr, that's just how it is.
    But the ingame Demon Hunters which have Shadowbolt or Shadowfury or Curse of Flames or use Chaos Blast or are surrouded by demons are acceptable? Lets not also forget that NElfs also do shun DHs as well.

    Need is irrelevant
    In this scenario, Warlocks would already have DPS specs and have the same melee DPS capability as other tanks. A dedicated melee dps would not be needed.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-08-10 at 11:18 PM.

  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Are Demon Hunters the same as Warlocks in lore? No...they aren't.
    Does that matter when Warlocks already ARE Demon Hunters in all but name? No.

    EJL
    It matters to the people who matter - the Demon Hunter fans. If not to please us, why else are Demon Hunters worth existing?

    It's not a matter of how plausible Warlocks are from becoming Demon Hunters, it's about what maintains the Demon Hunters unique identity. Again, just agree to disagree and move on. You really have no argument against how we will view Demon Hunters and their place and relevance within WoW. It's about BEING a Demon Hunter, not just a Warlock who hunts demons.

    You're constantly trying to raise proof against our opinion. I still don't see why you see it necessary to make us believe that playing a Dual Wielding Warlock is anything we want to see as a Demon Hunter. If Blizzard says so, then we will accept that as canon. Just like saying Elves are part of the Horde, or Pandarens are a neutral race. They may have been questionable changes in lore, but we still hold canon in high regard. Demon Hunters are not Warlocks until there is definitive lore saying so.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-10 at 11:48 PM.

  6. #946
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Nagrand Arena
    Posts
    1,397
    Damn OP you are trying too hard. There is no demon hunter in wow.
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

  7. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    But the ingame Demon Hunters which have Shadowbolt or Shadowfury or Curse of Flames or use Chaos Blast or are surrouded by demons are acceptable? Lets not also forget that NElfs also do shun DHs as well.
    And even Nelf DHs would shun Warlocks of the other specialisations.

    In this scenario, Warlocks would already have DPS specs and have the same melee DPS capability as other tanks. A dedicated melee dps would not be needed.

    EJL
    It's needed about as much as Warlocks need it as a tank spec. Both are about want, and when it comes down to want, DHs as a standalone class would be more wanted.

  8. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It's needed about as much as Warlocks need it as a tank spec. Both are about want, and when it comes down to want, DHs as a standalone class would be more wanted.
    This pretty much.

    What we want on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very much, 1 being don't want.

    Demon Hunter as a playable class - 10
    Demon Hunter never happens - 5-6 (above average because it's expected it won't happen)
    Demon Hunter as Warlock spec - 1
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-11 at 12:16 AM.

  9. #949
    Gais demon hunter is totally warlock
    warlock can has demon and make look like angry demon man too
    warlock can set guis on fair and demon man can set self on fire

    is easy see?

    Real talk, I would hope that if anyone was going to get a demonhunter spec it would be rogue and it would be a tank/DPS spec. I mean, just set a rogue on fire and you're halfway to a demon hunter anyway.
    Last edited by Jerakal; 2013-08-11 at 04:18 AM.

  10. #950
    @ The Night Elf Warlock argument:

    Or, you could reason that there are no NEW Night Elf Warlocks. It would be fairly easy to reason that all current Demon Hunters date back to pre-sundering or early post-sundering, and their ways are such an extreme anathema among their own people that they haven't been able to train more until they found like-minded individuals of other races. Motive wise, they would only need to find one Warlock whose motives matched their own; It wouldn't be difficult. The knowledge could spread from there like it did with the Council of the Black Harvest. Maybe this has already happened with Kanrethed, before he followed in Illidan's footsteps, and we just haven't mastered it yet, represented by our currently gimped Demon Hunter Glyph.

  11. #951
    Rogues would fit better than Warlocks, I agree. They probably share most of the races that a Demon Hunter could cover as well.

    I'd probably fit them in around 4 in the scale. The lore still isn't 100%, but at least they're a 'shadowy melee' class.

  12. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    And even Nelf DHs would shun Warlocks of the other specialisations.
    How such players would choose to roleplay their character would be up to them.

    It's needed about as much as Warlocks need it as a tank spec. Both are about want, and when it comes down to want, DHs as a standalone class would be more wanted.
    Yes, arguably players would want a viable melee DPS spec even though they would have THREE Ranged DPS specs and a melee tanking option available to them - not to mention the existing GoDH. However, right now, Warlocks...like all pures...only have a DPS role. There is a string argument that a diversification for all pures is needed, to address issues of flexibility, burnout through variety of play, and to try and reduce the queue times.

    As for want - that also is the case for Hunters as I've seen calls for a more melee orientated Hunters in the past. Just because some players ask for it doesn't mean it'll happen.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-08-11 at 06:38 AM.

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    There is a string argument that a diversification for all pures is needed, to address issues of flexibility, burnout through variety of play, and to try and reduce the queue times.

    EJL
    The need for tanks in the game doesn't stem from the lack of Tank options in the game. This is an issue that's been addressed by GC before, and it's been addressed by players if you just look around in the forum. Just because there are more options for tanks doesn't mean more players will be tanks.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-11 at 07:04 AM.

  14. #954
    Perhaps making DHs a cloth wearing class that uses a "Intellect/Spirit -> Agility/Expertise" conversion passive would make them easier to implement, but the issue of huge overlaps with Warlocks and even a bit of Rogues still remains.

    Blizzard would have to make a new class (the WoW DHs) that are a fusion of Warlock magic and Rogue fighting - but without further infringing on the Warlock and Rogue class, as well as changing/removing certain aspects of Warlocks (and even Rogues) that overlaps too much with the Demon Hunters.

    And even then it is a huge risk that the War3 DH fans would not like the new improvised WoW DH class - which would prompt for yet another redesign that costs precious resources (MONEY).

    It is DOABLE, but it is more realistic to expect Blizzard to utilize some other unused sources of "hero materials" (like Tinker+Alchemist).
    Tinker + Alchemist in a single class:
    Tank spec: robotics, steampunk hammers/chainsaws, grappling hooks and heavy machinery.
    Melee dps spec: doping yourself with chems and tossing vicious acids on the enemies.
    Ranged dps: rockets, lasers, TNT critters and explosives, shrink rays and sapper mines.
    Healing spec: chemical sprays, needles, exploding flasks and other chemical type abilities to heal.

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The need for tanks in the game doesn't stem from the lack of Tank options in the game. This is an issue that's been addressed by GC before, and it's been addressed by players if you just look around in the forum. Just because there are more options for tanks doesn't mean more players will be tanks.
    To be fair, GC was referring to adding the new tanking classes not adding to many tanks as many of then were rerolls from other tanking classes. I think they will be pleasantly surprised if they open up new possibilities within the existing classes. I would tank, and the warlock tanking community is proof that others would as well.

  16. #956
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Blizzard would have to make a new class (the WoW DHs) that are a fusion of Warlock magic and Rogue fighting - but without further infringing on the Warlock and Rogue class, as well as changing/removing certain aspects of Warlocks (and even Rogues) that overlaps too much with the Demon Hunters.
    I'm curious.

    Prior to Death Knights and Monks, what pre-existing classes would you have compared them to? And would you find those class comparisons withstanding after knowing their differences?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orloth View Post
    To be fair, GC was referring to adding the new tanking classes not adding to many tanks as many of then were rerolls from other tanking classes. I think they will be pleasantly surprised if they open up new possibilities within the existing classes. I would tank, and the warlock tanking community is proof that others would as well.
    I agree that Warlock Tanking would be an interesting draw a new crowd to tanking. I do hope Blizzard would implement a stat-priority change between armors, but I don't think they'll do it. I've pushed for the removal of Int Plate gear before, because as a Paladin, i'd always have to carry multiple sets of gear depending on the situation. On top of that, it always sucks in a raid when the one thing that drops is Int. Plate. It's always the first to get DE'd.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-08-11 at 08:00 AM.

  17. #957
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The need for tanks in the game doesn't stem from the lack of Tank options in the game. This is an issue that's been addressed by GC before, and it's been addressed by players if you just look around in the forum. Just because there are more options for tanks doesn't mean more players will be tanks.
    Which I've stated before. The big problem with tanks (and healers) is not the number of classes open to that role, it is the number of players wanting to take on that role.

    Having said that, providing more playstyle options for tanks isn't in itself a bad idea and presenting a different playstyle and the DH image may indeed draw a few more players into the role. It's also the role the DH actually fills in game when its used and its a role Warlocks have, in the past, taken on. Doing so would still provide additional flexibility for the Warlock class.

    In short, there are arguments for implementing a DH in its traditional tanking role, especially if it is added to the Warlock class instead of being a standalone class. There is much less of an argument for a DPS spec in a similar situation - Warlocks already have DPS options, they have a melee option through the GoDH and the DH spec and the DHs existing in game aren't presented as a DPS spec. Players might indeed want a viable DH melee DPS option, but that doesn't mean they'd get one if DH were fully implemented as a Warlock spec instead of a standalone class.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-08-11 at 08:46 AM.

  18. #958
    As I've mentioned before, Warlock Tanking has nothing to do with Demon Hunters. It's Dark Apotheosis, not Demon Hunting. Blizzard would be foolish to try to combine the two, considering they could create new lore to explain the tanking form instead of destroying existing Demon Hunter lore.

  19. #959
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Which I've stated before. The big problem with tanks (and healers) is not the number of classes open to that role, it is the number of players wanting to take on that role.

    Having said that, providing more playstyle options for tanks isn't in itself a bad idea and presenting a different playstyle and the DH image may indeed draw a few more players into the role. It's also the role the DH actually fills in game when its used and its a role Warlocks have, in the past, taken on. Doing so would still provide additional flexibility for the Warlock class.

    In short, there are arguments for implementing a DH in its traditional tanking role, especially if it is added to the Warlock class instead of being a standalone class. There is much less of an argument for a DPS spec in a similar situation - Warlocks already have DPS options, they have a melee option through the GoDH and the DH spec and the DHs existing in game aren't presented as a DPS spec. Players might indeed want a viable DH melee DPS option, but that doesn't mean they'd get one if DH were fully implemented as a Warlock spec instead of a standalone class.

    EJL
    Unless you remove the notion of pures from the game in the process, then you'll potentially push more people away from the class than you might draw into tanking. And if you remove pures from the game, there's real potential for alienating players from the game entirely, while as an idea itself I don't see it as a major draw. Pures are still popular, Hunters being the second most played class and DPS by far the most popular role.

    I just don't see the point in adding Demon Hunter as a spec for Warlocks when it's such a popular class idea for two distinct roles; it would be massively underwhelming and completely defeat the object of the attempt to give players what they actually want.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-08-11 at 08:59 AM.

  20. #960
    Herald of the Titans Agoonga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    2,943
    Demon Hunter doesn't not have enough unique abilities to be its own class. Just be happy that Warlocks have some of them because that's the only way you'll get to use them. I would like to play as a Beastmaster, but I know they aren't unique enough to be separate from Hunters with Beast Mastery, so I don't argue for them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •