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  1. #961
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Unless you remove the notion of pures from the game in the process, then you'll potentially push more people away from the class than you might draw into tanking. And if you remove pures from the game, there's real potential for alienating players from the game entirely, while as an idea itself I don't see it as a major draw. Pures are still popular, Hunters being the second most played class and DPS by far the most popular role.
    You really think adding an extra option and leaving the others intact would drive people away? That players are so invested in the idea of a pure DPS class with no other role possible that they would rather drop the game than accept they have another option?

    That seems very doubtful to me. I can't see a MM Hunter, for example, dropping the class because Blizzard added a 4th spec that allowed him to heal but left MM alone.

    I just don't see the point in adding Demon Hunter as a spec for Warlocks when it's such a popular class idea for two distinct roles; it would be massively underwhelming and completely defeat the object of the attempt to give players what they actually want.
    Why would they add it as a spec instead of a standalone class? Because Warlocks already are Demon Hunters. Right now. This minute. You can log into the game and play a Demon Hunter. You just have to accept they are called Warlocks. It lacks viability and it doesn't have dual wield but if you wanted to go around as a demon hunter...that's already in the game. Same look, same theme, same moves. Players got excited during the Beta about getting to play Demon Hunters and tanking and were disappointed when the viability of that got nerfed. But actually BEING a Demon Hunter? Warlocks do that right now. What they lack is the ability to dual wield and viability in the role.

    If Warlocks just lack Dual Wield...is it realistic to expect Blizzard to add another class that is effectively the same in many ways? And if you redesign the class so its different...is it realistic to expect Blizzard to call it a Demon Hunter and so weigh it down with the baggage and in game lore of the existing version?

    So, to answer your point....it IS viable to add a spec for Warlocks that reflects a viable melee role for what the Warlocks already have for a tanking role that it already fills in game. A viable melee DPS spec would only need to be developed if the DHs were added as a standalone class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    As I've mentioned before, Warlock Tanking has nothing to do with Demon Hunters. It's Dark Apotheosis, not Demon Hunting.
    Dark Apotheosis gives them tanking abilities including a taunt and swaps a ranged nuke for a short range attack and is derived from a Glyph known as the Glyph of DEMON HUNTING. Your argument, however, refers to how Warlock tanking USED to be done..draintanking. Drain tanking is something different and while it is possible Blizzard could redevelop warlock tanking around that, its also largely unnecessary to give them two separate tanking styles.

    So sure...Blizzard could do that But why bother when all it has to do it tune the existing Warlock into viability instead of redeveloping a new style of tanking. And even were Blizzard to develop it, that wouldn't change the fact that Warlocks are Demon Hunters right now. You'd have to actively remove abilities and options from the class to change that. Which again, isn't impossible but ti does seem unlikely

    Blizzard would be foolish to try to combine the two, considering they could create new lore to explain the tanking form instead of destroying existing Demon Hunter lore.
    They could indeed create new lore. Why would they need to? They also do NOT need to destroy the little Demon Hunter lore that exists. Which is minimal. They use Rituals, and they are shunned. Sounds very much like warlocks. They wouldn't even need to destroy the non-canon RPG info since little, if any, of it actually contradicts the supposition that DHs can be seen an offshoot of Warlocks.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-08-11 at 09:58 AM.

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    You really think adding an extra option and leaving the others intact would drive people away? That players are so invested in the idea of a pure DPS class with no other role possible that they would rather drop the game than accept they have another option?

    That seems very doubtful to me. I can't see a MM Hunter, for example, dropping the class because Blizzard added a 4th spec that allowed him to heal but left MM alone.
    4th spec threads do tend to draw a few complaints of that very nature. Not a significant number, and I expect the majority of players, who don't post on forums, would react with curiosity about what their new specs can do.


    Players got excited during the Beta about getting to play Demon Hunters and tanking and were disappointed when the viability of that got nerfed. But actually BEING a Demon Hunter? Warlocks do that right now. What they lack is the ability to dual wield and viability in the role.
    Nope. Having been part of those threads during beta, warlocks really didn't care about the glyph's name, only the role it offered: main tank. We didn't talk about getting to be a demon hunter, or even a melee fighter; we talked about the mechanics and tools of being a cloth geared, pet toting tank. The possibilities were tested, the spec was pushed to its limits, and it was proven to be OP and was thus nerfed.


    Dark Apotheosis gives them tanking abilities including a taunt and swaps a ranged nuke for a short range attack and is derived from a Glyph known as the Glyph of DEMON HUNTING. Your argument, however, refers to how Warlock tanking USED to be done..draintanking. Drain tanking is something different and while it is possible Blizzard could redevelop warlock tanking around that, its also largely unnecessary to give them two separate tanking styles.

    So sure...Blizzard could do that But why bother when all it has to do it tune the existing Warlock into viability instead of redeveloping a new style of tanking. And even were Blizzard to develop it, that wouldn't change the fact that Warlocks are Demon Hunters right now. You'd have to actively remove abilities and options from the class to change that. Which again, isn't impossible but ti does seem unlikely
    To be accurate, DA's taunt isn't legit since it doesn't work on raid bosses.

    Despite the glyph name, nothing about DA really screams demon hunter. You get a 10-yard range instant spell, a growl-type threat move, an all-purpose damage absorb, and the same general threat bump and damage reduction that all five real tanks get. No actual melee attacks, no melee weapons, and I don't find that it feels like a melee combatant. When I play with DA, I still feel like a caster, just one who can take a punch or five. And I say that as someone with all five tanking specs between 85 and 90.

    DA was not at all balanced for the new paradigm of active mitigation tanking. It might have worked in Wrath or Cata, but it had to be nerfed hard before MoP went live. It needs at least as much redesigning as warlock's three real specs got before MoP.

    Plus, right now DA repurposes all the cool things about Demo. Demo is in a pretty great place IMO, and will hopefully carry into the next expansion with only balance tuning. If they go forward with a tanking 4th spec, it's highly reasonable that it will get all new spells, and a new secondary resource.

    When 4th spec threads come up I always say I want an Apotheosis spec built on health stealing and damage redirection for its active mitigation. The warlock already has the history and the basic tools in place to create a drain tanking style different from the five tanks already in game. Why should Blizz shoehorn demon hunterish things onto Warlocks to make them tanks when they could resurrect SL/SL instead? Warlock tanks would be better for it, and the class would be better served to stay within its own identity.

    I could see a DH tanking spec going a few other ways in its AM: high damage absorption, high damage evasion, or high effective health. There's no need at all to believe that it would lift the few tools out of DA and just tank with those.

  3. #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    4th spec threads do tend to draw a few complaints of that very nature. Not a significant number, and I expect the majority of players, who don't post on forums, would react with curiosity about what their new specs can do.
    I expect the number of players so invested in their idea of a class that they'd drop it would be very few.

    Nope. Having been part of those threads during beta, warlocks really didn't care about the glyph's name, only the role it offered: main tank.
    So was I. And there was talk about the Demon Hunter. Of course, there was also talk about the DH and Warlocks when Meta was introduced.

    To be accurate, DA's taunt isn't legit since it doesn't work on raid bosses.
    Yes, and the Glyph itself is only meant to be there for fun. As pointed out, it isn't meant to be a serious tank. As GC pointed out, the chnges necessary for that go beyond the scope of a Glyph.

    Despite the glyph name, nothing about DA really screams demon hunter.
    You get to fill a DHs core role, albeit in a limited fashion. You get to look and act like a DH.

    You don't get any melee moves apart from auto-attack - but you do end up getting into short range in your face combat while hitting things with your sword and casting spells and being "tanky".

    in other words, you do what a DH does while looking like a DH.

    You want strikes? You want actual melee combat? Then you are looking into going beyond that into a VIABLE self contained tanking spec which uses an active mitigation model. Thats a bit beyond a mere Glyph.

    Plus, right now DA repurposes all the cool things about Demo. Demo is in a pretty great place IMO, and will hopefully carry into the next expansion with only balance tuning. If they go forward with a tanking 4th spec, it's highly reasonable that it will get all new spells, and a new secondary resource.
    Possibly. I could see them doing that, or simply keeping the Demo system as a workable base that requires minimal changes. They could even drop that DH system completely as a tanking model and go back to drain tanking.


    Why should Blizz shoehorn demon hunterish things onto Warlocks to make them tanks when they could resurrect SL/SL instead?
    Principally because, despite it lack of viability, the core problem is that - as far as gameplay is concerned - Warlocks already are Demon Hunters.

    They aren't viable as Demon Hunters - they don't have the melee tools, active mitigation system or tanking toolkit for that - but they do have the looks, they do have the spells, they are positioned into a tanking role and while they don't have the actual strikes, they are capable of running into melee hitting things with a sword.

    Viable? No...but that doesn't mean they don't already do everything a DH would.

    Horns and Tattoos? They got those.
    Meta? They got that
    Melee combat with a sword? They got that
    Associated and identified with demons? Yes
    Do they cast Shadow based spells? Do they use curses? Can they control demons? Yes.
    Tanking role? Yes

    Everything a DH needs to make him a DH...Warlocks have. Anything else - strikes, tanking and survival tools, etc - goes to viability in the role.

    It doesn't change what they currently have. It just means they can't tank Garrosh.

    At the end of the day, though, the issue is clear.

    Blizzard COULD indeed design a standalone DH class. Will it? Unless its a lot more popular than it appears, then it simply doesn't appear to be worth the effort. It has a large overlap with Warlocks in identity, theme and toolkit, and with the rogue in terms of presumed gameplay - AGI based dual wielding meleer who makes use of sme shadow based abilities and a limited selection of ranged attacks.

    Gameplaywise...the class is effectively already in game, Blizzard has been moving Demo Warlocks in that direction for years and the class brings nothing new to the game. Other classes already do what it does

    Blizard could also bring it in as a Warlock/Rogue subspec. Neither ption breaks any lore for DHs, and the Warlock class especially is essentially set up as the class already.

    Either option would work and bth are plausible directions. It's just the standalone option has problems that the sub-spec option doesn't. The standalone would allow for more indepth development but the sub-spec requires less work.

    Do I expect Blizzard to go down this route? I personally don't see a standalone class as viable; there is too much overlap in too many areas with not enough return.

    The sub spec? On the one hand, it'll add some variety to the class and players were excited with the thought during Beta. On the other, Warlocks have just had a major reworking and is vastly improved in many ways so Blizzard may decide resources are best used elewhere. If this XPac is Azshara, it may also be thematically appropriate to hold off until the BL XPac.

    EJL

  4. #964
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Frost DKs are based on the Lich hero. A mixture of frost and shadow magIc.
    No. Frost DKs are based on the DK hero.


    Liches have frost nova, a ritual move for mana, the WCII death knight death and decay, and frost armor. Frost nova and frost armor are mage spells. Dark Ritual is a magic card.


    Death Knights are based on Death Knights.

  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    No. Frost DKs are based on the DK hero.


    Liches have frost nova, a ritual move for mana, the WCII death knight death and decay, and frost armor. Frost nova and frost armor are mage spells. Dark Ritual is a magic card.


    Death Knights are based on Death Knights.
    Pretty much this.

    You could say the Mage's frost spec is based on the Lich hero. They're the ones who have Frost Nova and Frost Armor, two of the Lich's spells. Even then, it's a loose connection when you consider it's just Frost magic, which technically anyone can use.

  6. #966
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    No. Frost DKs are based on the DK hero.


    Liches have frost nova, a ritual move for mana, the WCII death knight death and decay, and frost armor. Frost nova and frost armor are mage spells. Dark Ritual is a magic card.


    Death Knights are based on Death Knights.
    The frost aspect of their abilities comes from the Lich. That is what it's based on.

    Frost= Lich
    Unholy= DK
    Blood= Dreadlord

  7. #967
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    No. Frost DKs are based on the DK hero.


    Liches have frost nova, a ritual move for mana, the WCII death knight death and decay, and frost armor. Frost nova and frost armor are mage spells. Dark Ritual is a magic card.


    Death Knights are based on Death Knights.
    Well yes, Liches are Scourge Mages. Just like Blademasters are Orc Warriors, Beastmasters are Orc (faction) Hunters, and Demon Hunters are Night Elf Warlocks.

    Of course the WCIII heroes don't match exactly to WoW classes, but there you have it. Blizzard broadly grouped up the classes (which were different from race to race in the RTS) into WoW classes which are uniform for each race. If they want to make a DH class then they need to effectively undo that, which either means removing the core aspect of the Demo tree for Warlocks or making the WoW Demon Hunter very different to the WC3 version. Either of those will make a lot of people unhappy of course.

    P.S. The DK frost tree is pretty much brand new, there's nothing like it in the WC3 or WC2 Death Knight abilities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The frost aspect of their abilities comes from the Lich. That is what it's based on.

    Frost= Lich
    Unholy= DK
    Blood= Dreadlord
    Only thing they took from Dreadlords was Carrion Swarm really. And Liches? Well, DKs kind of got the "flavour" of frost I suppose, other than that not really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #968
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Only thing they took from Dreadlords was Carrion Swarm really. And Liches? Well, DKs kind of got the "flavour" of frost I suppose, other than that not really.
    Actually they took Vampiric aura from Dreadlords. The original blood presence and blood aura restored your health, and the health of your allies based on the melee damage you inflicted on a target.

  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually they took Vampiric aura from Dreadlords. The original blood presence and blood aura restored your health, and the health of your allies based on the melee damage you inflicted on a target.
    Yeah, Demonology Warlocks got Carrion Swarm...

  10. #970
    I'm very tempted to create a "Rejoice! Tinkerer is already playable in-game, but not clear enough, apparently." thread, then list all the Engineering profession tinkers, mounts and gadgets. LOL. :3

  11. #971
    High Overlord Dethekk's Avatar
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    We don't need Demon Hunters in this game, and we warlocks are not demon hunters. Thanks

  12. #972
    Yeah, Demonology Warlocks got Carrion Swarm...
    And sleep, this is why demonology warlocks are disguised Dreadlords!!!

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    I'm very tempted to create a "Rejoice! Tinkerer is already playable in-game, but not clear enough, apparently." thread, then list all the Engineering profession tinkers, mounts and gadgets. LOL. :3
    thought of this also a few days ago ^^

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    And sleep, this is why demonology warlocks are disguised Dreadlords!!!
    inb4: "that's not the same"

  14. #974
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    I'm very tempted to create a "Rejoice! Tinkerer is already playable in-game, but not clear enough, apparently." thread, then list all the Engineering profession tinkers, mounts and gadgets. LOL. :3
    Go for it. I think it would be a good conversation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    And sleep, this is why demonology warlocks are disguised Dreadlords!!!
    And the Infernal.

    Which is why you're never getting a Dreadlord class.

  15. #975
    Which is why you're never getting a Dreadlord race
    Need to fix something.

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