Curious Combat

[kilj]

Was looking at world of logs to determine what does better dps for H horridon combat or assassination and when I looked at one of the top Combat parses his gear is straight up gem'd haste or haste hit.... So im assuming when you go combat you just gem straight haste? and does that in turn work out better for assassination when you switch because of the 2 rppm trinkets and helm meta?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...inobi/advanced

[Daltin]

Never go by the top parses on World of Logs. Special things had to happen for those things to occur (procs from the Gods, potential scumbagging, etc).

Just going down to the #10 Combat parse for Heroic Horridon 25, that rogue is sitting at 373k DPS.

In order to find an Assassination rogue doing 373k DPS, you have to go all the way down to 154th place.

I hope this cleared things up.

[Squirl]

On Horridon, it's easier to do decent damage as combat (just toggle on BF); it's tougher to do better damage as Mut (multi-rupting).

Use ShC for gearing questions.

[kilj]

I see and what about combat stacking haste gems

[Daltin]

Shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com is what you're looking for. There you can load your character up, plug in combat weapons, and throw in as many Haste gems as you want to see how your DPS changes.

[kilj]

Great I've been using shadowcraft forever, but I was looking for personnal opinions, didn't know this site is turning into just an automated lifeless machine.

[Daltin]

Great I've been using shadowcraft forever, but I was looking for personnal opinions, didn't know this site is turning into just an automated lifeless machine.

By automated, you mean you want us to do the work for you?

We answered your question. If you've been using Shadowcraft forever, you should know that stat weights change on an item to item basis, and even on a gem to gem basis.

There is no "opinion" in math. There is a correct way, and a way that is not optimal. What is best for me might not be the best for you.

The "opinion" I gave you was that combat is garbage on Horridon, going by the fact that the 10th ranked Combat parse is equivalent to the 154th place Assassination parse.

We have absolutely no idea if gemming pure haste is best for -YOU- without going through and doing all the simulations ourselves. Stop being lazy.

[Kael]

Great I've been using shadowcraft forever, but I was looking for personnal opinions, didn't know this site is turning into just an automated lifeless machine.

Before you go off on a tirade of insulting people... where do you think we get our math from? There are 2 useful programs for finding information about rogue DPS: SimulationCraft, and Shadowcraft. If you doubt the results of one, toss the same variables into the other...

Unrelated - at the 10 vs. 154 - you're mostly looking at spec bias; there are MANY more assassination rogues than combat rogues. http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Horridon/...00000000000000 for Horridon - you're looking at 10 times as many samples. How well the top 10 play is another question entirely that would be an interesting look into social dynamics, but not so much which one is ahead.

[kilj]

Ok I get the whole math side of it, I was just wondering kind of like if you have 2 people on a cliff one jumps one doesnt... Why because he chooses not 2. If someone comes to me asking for help I don't say go google it I try to explain it....w.e tho

[Kael]

Ok I get the whole math side of it, I was just wondering kind of like if you have 2 people on a cliff one jumps one doesnt... Why because he chooses not 2. If someone comes to me asking for help I don't say go google it I try to explain it....w.e tho

The difference is that google is a search engine, where Shadowcraft is a source. Google is how you find Shadowcraft; in short order, it has the answers, rather than pointing you at where they might be. If gemming priorities change, it'll show up there quickly. You can shove the rogues that you've seen doing something different into it and see what it recommends there.

To take a rogue better geared than I that I know, yes, haste is well ahead of agility for gemming for combat. What you mean by "work better for assassination" I'm not sure (better than agility gems? Better than a mastery reforge?), but while haste is approaching agility for gemming in ~540 gear by my estimation, you'll see agi and mastery seeing higher returns throughout because they don't suffer from time off-target and do benefit significantly from cleave, which is discussed in detail in many threads here (haste v. mastery for assassination).

All of that said, how this applies to you comes back to: go ask Shadowcraft.

[Sesshou]

On Horridon when looking at logs, you need to make sure the people you look at are doing what you will be doing. Some people get to sit on Horridon full time which is going to favor assassination a lot.

You want us to try to explain it? Do you know what agility gives? AP and crit. Do you know what AP does? Do you know what crit does? Now, do you know what haste does? You've been around so I'm sure you do. There is not really an opinion on this, go look up the math for your gear with either shadowcraft or simcraft. The only way we would have an opinion on what is better for your gear is if we plugged in your gear. This is not really like assassination where there is an opinion on mastery vs haste due to a large part of the benefit of haste being reliant on getting the expected (or higher) number of trinket procs. You are going into haste as your optimal secondary stat either way with combat.

[Daltin]

Great I've been using shadowcraft forever, but I was looking for personnal opinions, didn't know this site is turning into just an automated lifeless machine.

It's clear you took our advice at looking at Shadowcraft, as your DPS has gone up ~20k from yesterday to today. Your haste value was greater than your mastery value, but you were using a Mastery set up. You've gone from 176k to 195k just from visiting shadowcraft and doing what it asked you to do.

Plugging in equivalent combat weapons to the assassination weapons you have, the estimated DPS would be a whopping 218k DPS after gemming and forging. However, you should know that this is due to perfect play and adaptation around the 4piece bonus. With any latency, this is not possible. It's been explained in this thread already that on paper, combat is fine. Execution, however, it is not.

That 195k from Assassination may turn out to be 190k, but that 218k from Combat may turn out to actually be 170k. It's just not worth your time to change the gear set up you currently have unless you're a masochist.

Going by your numbers you have for normal modes, and without breaking down your logs, you appear to have an understanding of the assassination spec. Why are you so antsy to switch to combat when you're doing well with Assassination? Is your guild pressuring you to roll combat for Horridon?

Stick with what you know, and you'll do best. Relax, and don't get so crappy towards the forum-goers.

[Verain]

I tried combat on HHOR10 when we were first on it. I hated it with a million years of hate after three attempts.

I will tell you, play assassination. If some combat deity wants to walk in and tell you to roll that way, he's welcome to, and I'm curious too. But here's what I hated about combat on that fight:

1- On swapping to a new add, I would have a set of three choices:
I could press revealing strike, then marked for death, then eviscerate.
I could press revealing strike, then build up with sinisters into either slice or eviscerate, THEN marked for death and eviscerate.
I could press marked for death, then eviscerate.

These three things all have very different advantages. The first loses a combo point, but gives me a full evis. It also costs me a good piece of energy. I wasn't sure if it was right, and didn't do the math.
The second thing was optimal on anything that would live for awhile. That is basically a normal rotation. But there are many really important mobs with not much help that you should spend just a couple seconds on- this means someone else gets that job, or you do it poorly with one of the other two options.
The third thing is close to what the other specs would do- apply 5 combo points, press finisher. But note it's a lot less powerful without the revealing strike. You may end up with a living mob instead of a dead one, and have to spend energy where a S or A rogue would not.

but mutilate sez: marked for death -> envenom is always good enough.


2- When in between mobs, my cooldowns spin at a small fraction of the normal rate. The mere act of running from mob to mob makes the cooldowns spin slower.

but mutilate sez: cooldowns always right!

3- When multiple mobs decide to clump, it's tempting to blow all cooldowns with flurry up. But this aggressive move can be punished severely if you pick a time that it anything shy of perfect. Additionally, spree will choose enemies and directions where you only get a partial flurry. Note also that your position to flurry off of a single mob will put you in a pretty exact position normally, and switching to another position will often necessitate running your rotation on another mob. This is pretty disruptive to your damage if the group of mobs is moving or one of the many void zones spawns under you or chases you.

but mutilate sez: kill the important targets after multi rupturing others. Marked for death helps!

4- (3) still offers good damage, but it doesn't happen that often- and when it does, often your allies will be doing very strong aoe. Remember that since many of these mobs are much more dangerous, killing them first can be way more important than the blade flurry damage anyway.

but mutilate sez: multi rupture doesn't require rogue-optimal tank positioning in the first place.

5- When it is burn time, combat can be finicky to put out mutilate numbers. When it is time to feint, combat can be energy capped. When a pink dino is on you, you'll lose a lot more dps as combat getting it away from you.

but mutilate sez: Mutilate good at burn! Can feint with free globals! Dino bounce only costs throw, not also energy!