View Poll Results: On what grounds would you support Item Level Squish?

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  • If they adjust difficulty of old raids so they will not be effected

    169 36.74%
  • Even if older raids become more difficult I will support

    144 31.30%
  • No period

    114 24.78%
  • Neutral

    33 7.17%
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  1. #181
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    I sure know that my wish to have the plagued proto drake in WotLK and being so close to getting it wasn't enough for me to ask for Blizzard not to remove the mount. So, at least I know that I wouldn't put myself and what I think and want before hard choices.
    Shame though that Blizzard said that they didn't want to change anything except the numbers, but also admitted that it doesn't work and therefor already plan to buff people.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    Go ask your mom what the result of adding 376482368432 to 2893759327546 and you'll understand. And no, she can't use a calculator... Then call her an idiot.

    Big numbers are retarded, when you can simply have small numbers
    That would be more of an UI issue than an actual strong reason either way for a proposed reduction of stats. Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight; I have most of the stuff I want from older content and the few remaining pieces I do need I have friends and family who will gladly help me get them, but if you're going to tell me me the major reason for an item squish is "Coz big numbers are harder to add" then I'm going to suggest that a UI workaround would be just as effective and cause less issues while being easier to implement.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmekiel View Post
    Shame though that Blizzard said that they didn't want to change anything except the numbers, but also admitted that it doesn't work and therefor already plan to buff people.
    I know. And if they go ahead with this "buff" they're going to regret it.

  4. #184
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    I know. And if they go ahead with this "buff" they're going to regret it.
    I don't know if they'd regret it, but it does show the squish didn't work as intended.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmekiel View Post
    I don't know if they'd regret it, but it does show the squish didn't work as intended.
    No, it only shows they they're afraid of upsetting their paying customers.

  6. #186
    Because there's some idiot who thinks that the squish will be a nerf of the players.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    No, it only shows they they're afraid of upsetting their paying customers.
    They should be. Too many people feel so strongly about it and they will lose subs. I have a lots of casual friends that play, they spend a lot of time in old world content and doing other stuff solo and with 1-2 friends. By item squishing and then giving players a stat buff in old raids, they make old raids feel artificial. Lot of the reason I go back to solo old raids is nostalgia and "So last year I spent 50 hours wiping to this boss with 25 people.. can I solo it now?". By adding this "buff" in order to fix the issue the item squish will cause, they are ruining both of these reasons.

    I don't want fake scaling in the game. That's a large reason why many people did not like GW2 and came back to WoW. 4 difficulties (not even including 10/25 differences) already makes raiding seem artificial enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Diver 1980 View Post
    Because there's some idiot who thinks that the squish will be a nerf of the players.
    GC already said it would affect players... What don't you understand about giving a stat buff to max level players when they are in old raid content so they can still solo it? That clearly means it does affect players and in order to fix it they are applying a cheap bandaid. The item squish is not as balanced as some people make it out to be, they know it, that's why they didn't apply it in MoP and even admitted many of their internal testers did not like it.
    Last edited by tyrindor; 2013-08-01 at 01:41 PM.

  8. #188
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    It's not about "morons" or "kids these days who can't count above 10".
    Everything is going to stay the same, but numbers will be easier to work with. No one pays attention to the last 3 digits of a 200 000 hit, might as well remove them.
    I don't get it - how is this a bad thing?
    "I like big numbers, so item squish is bad" is the same as saying "I don't like LFR, so LFR is bad".

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosturn View Post
    It's not about "morons" or "kids these days who can't count above 10".
    Everything is going to stay the same, but numbers will be easier to work with. No one pays attention to the last 3 digits of a 200 000 hit, might as well remove them.
    I don't get it - how is this a bad thing?
    "I like big numbers, so item squish is bad" is the same as saying "I don't like LFR, so LFR is bad".
    Last I checked I don't need an artificial stat buff to solo old raids, so something is definitely changing.

    Go ahead and post that number size doesn't matter on the Diablo forums and see the amount of crap you'll get, that's the whole point of an insanely popular genre. Try to understand the mentality of some gamers when it comes to number size. All nostalgia, the sense of strength, and the sense of progression over the last 9 years is all thrown out the window for people who think this way. You may not care strongly either way, but why ruin it for these people?

    I totally get why some gamers don't understand or care about this... I'm not going to say their opinions are wrong because no one here is wrong. Different types of gamers, different mentalities, and different reasons for playing the game. By changing the numbers they are ruining a major aspect of why some people play the game in order to fix a problem no one was quitting the game over to begin with.

    Soon as GC mentioned it, there was over a dozen threads.. with one of threads exceed 50 pages in a single day. That shows how strongly some people care that this doesn't happen.
    Last edited by tyrindor; 2013-08-01 at 02:02 PM.

  10. #190
    I am kind of on the fence,

    One side I would be sad to have a "visual" drop in power (even though not a relative one), and I would be frustrated if they did not do something to allow soloing still.

    On the Otherside, with Ilvl's getting squished the difference between say a Heroic dungeon weapon and a first tier raid weapon will not be as much of a DPS boost. For Example if they made ilvls only move up say 4-8 Ilvls between Difficulties instead of 13-17 weapons from previous tiers would be much more useful than they are now.

    I remember being able to raid most of Black Temple with my Talon of Azshara/Merciless Glad Offhand from on my Rogue in TBC, and still did reasonable DPS within a mid-high tier raiding guild, and was rarely ever turned down for PuGs from gearchecks. Yet now If you try to get into a PuG ToT with only a 489 weapon, most of the time you will be scoffed at, or told you re not geared enough, with only 1 tier of difference.

    I'm leaning more towards Yay, but will not say for it at the current moment until more information is released.
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  11. #191
    Warchief Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    They should be. Too many people feel so strongly about it and they will lose subs. I have a lots of casual friends that play, they spend a lot of time in old world content and doing other stuff solo and with 1-2 friends. By item squishing and then giving players a stat buff in old raids, they make old raids feel artificial. Lot of the reason I go back to solo old raids is nostalgia and "So last year I spent 50 hours wiping to this boss with 25 people.. can I solo it now?". By adding this "buff" in order to fix the issue the item squish will cause, they are ruining both of these reasons.

    I don't want fake scaling in the game. That's a large reason why many people did not like GW2 and came back to WoW. 4 difficulties (not even including 10/25 differences) already makes raiding seem artificial enough.

    I think this is the biggest difference between the supporters and the opposition... When I have gone back and 5, 4, 3, 2 manned something I felt hugely letdown by how easy the raid had become and how inflated or stats had become. Thinking about how we used to take a big group of friends to this place and now my wife and I can do it together alone. This saddens me. It doesn't make me feel better. I feel like the super jock that decided to tackle the downs syndrome kid that was "supposed" to get a touchdown. It's just dumb and it's like the bully beating up the scrawny helpless kid to take his lunch money, his car, and his t-shirt.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    GC already said it would affect players... What don't you understand about giving a stat buff to max level players when they are in old raid content so they can still solo it? That clearly means it does affect players and in order to fix it they are applying a cheap bandaid. The item squish is not as balanced as some people make it out to be, they know it, that's why they didn't apply it in MoP and even admitted many of their internal testers did not like it.
    They didn't admit that their testers didn't like it. The quote said that it felt weird, and if it felt weird to the guys that knew the reason for it then ppl that don't read forums would be down right confused and may quit without knowing what happened. I'm hoping that it's announced at Blizzcon and is plastered all over the launcher and every other thing that they can do to let ppl know when and why this is happening. That way no one has the ignorance excuse...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    Last I checked I don't need an artificial stat buff to solo old raids, so something is definitely changing.

    Go ahead and post that number size doesn't matter on the Diablo forums and see the amount of crap you'll get, that's the whole point of an insanely popular genre. Try to understand the mentality of some gamers when it comes to number size. All nostalgia, the sense of strength, and the sense of progression over the last 9 years is all thrown out the window for people who think this way. You may not care strongly either way, but why ruin it for these people?

    I totally get why some gamers don't understand or care about this... I'm not going to say their opinions are wrong because no one here is wrong. Different types of gamers, different mentalities, and different reasons for playing the game. By changing the numbers they are ruining a major aspect of why some people play the game in order to fix a problem no one was quitting the game over to begin with.

    Soon as GC mentioned it, there was over a dozen threads.. with one of threads exceed 50 pages in a single day. That shows how strongly some people care that this doesn't happen.
    It's more than just the feelings that are evoked though. It's more than just easier workable numbers. It's about endgame character power and scaling as well. At the end of Wrath a fully geared ilvl 264 PvP character could one shot a character in PvP blues with all the right buffs lined up. That is a problem. This also happened in Cata and I'm sure it will happen in MoP. The numbers need to be reduced, and the amount of ilvls per expansion need to be reigned in. Our spells don't do %damage they do a static amount of damage for your character power. When our DPS and crits end up hitting for more than our health pools you run into a ton of issues. The ilvl squish will take care of that.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  12. #192
    ILVL from heroic 5 man should match heroic gear from last content patch of previous expansion. Why Blizzard cant make it. Simply enough - you can fo to your first raid of current expansion with high end heroic gear of previous. Why not to allow this? Blizzard care about newcomers? Bullshit, people with full heroic gear will level up to the max in a matter of hours and will go to the raid, instead of ganking lowlvls. Blizzard worrying about too fast content clearing? No problem, make first raid harder, same with BoT\BWD. High raiders will farm gear for raids in a matter of days anyways. So what the problem? Why this jump like panda greens > HC Deathwing epics are nessesary?
    I'm 100% up for item squish. Blizzard cannot undone all this nonscence, but at least next expansions wont be this silly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by krethos View Post
    I remember being able to raid most of Black Temple with my Talon of Azshara/Merciless Glad Offhand from on my Rogue in TBC, and still did reasonable DPS within a mid-high tier raiding guild, and was rarely ever turned down for PuGs from gearchecks. Yet now If you try to get into a PuG ToT with only a 489 weapon, most of the time you will be scoffed at, or told you re not geared enough, with only 1 tier of difference.
    Thats probably because of 100500 difficulties as it is now. SoO LFR, SoO Flex, SoO 10, SoO 25, SoO 10HC, SoO 25HC - 6 difficulties, OMG. Blizzard must be clinically insane.

  13. #193
    Warchief Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    ILVL from heroic 5 man should match heroic gear from last content patch of previous expansion. Why Blizzard cant make it. Simply enough - you can fo to your first raid of current expansion with high end heroic gear of previous. Why not to allow this? Blizzard care about newcomers? Bullshit, people with full heroic gear will level up to the max in a matter of hours and will go to the raid, instead of ganking lowlvls. Blizzard worrying about too fast content clearing? No problem, make first raid harder, same with BoT\BWD. High raiders will farm gear for raids in a matter of days anyways. So what the problem? Why this jump like panda greens > HC Deathwing epics are nessesary?
    I'm 100% up for item squish. Blizzard cannot undone all this nonscence, but at least next expansions wont be this silly.
    50 ilvls above the top tier is actually enough, but they need to plan the ilvls out through the course of the expansion better. From BC to Wrath we went from 150 to 200/213. If Wrath had played out as planned it would have ended at 251 which ended up being the 10man normal ilvl. It was the experimentation that was for the better of the game that got us to where we are, and now for the better of the game they need to go back and fix the experimentation. People simply are more worried about their ego and thrill of squishing proverbial ants to see the bigger picture here though...
    Last edited by Rizendragon; 2013-08-01 at 03:04 PM.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  14. #194
    Using the term "Megadamage" worries me, as I am completely against this idea. It's disingenuous language where the letters "K" and "M," standing for thousand or million, would suffice. It makes it look like Blizzard is already in favor of this terrible change.

    It's bad for a couple of reasons. First of all, when I level next expansion, I don't want to arrive where I've already been. Along the same lines, I want to do more dps, not less, when my character supposedly grows in power. Otherwise, they can not introduce a new level cap.

    Even for people who claim to be bad at math or numbers, this change should be insulting. I'd not want to be treated like I'm in 6th grade by Blizzard. Most people can't admit they just don't like math, and pretend to be bad at it by not caring enough to try.
    Last edited by Achtalon; 2013-08-01 at 03:31 PM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Piitz View Post
    Nay, its only numbers. The bigger numbers the better, in my opinion.
    This. Right now I just divide everything by 1,000. My mage has 33 sp, 500 hp, and does 150 dps. I do not see the issue here at all and why this is needed. Their argument for it being hard on computers is bs. . . they can just start rounding off the damage if there gets to be to many numbers. They laugh at the "mega" damage solution, but that solution seems alot more long term than a squish which they have to rebalance everything for where they could just go to doing kilo damage, and much much much later milo dmg.
    nothing but empty space here bro. move along now.

  16. #196
    Brewmaster Sleepykin's Avatar
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    Sure, I don't see why not if soloing old content remains a possibility.
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  17. #197
    People who are against the squish remind me of this. i(dot)imgur(dot)com/2yakM9Q.png

  18. #198
    I think we are paying way to much attention to "ilvl". Item Level is just a mechanism to define stat budgets to keep things balanced. An increase in Item Level of 13 in and of itself means nothing, but is dependent on the logic that Blizzard applies behind the scenes for increase in stat budget. Blizzard could use 4 iLvl per tier and have the exact same effect on stats that using 40 iLvl's has, because they don't use all of the values in between. There is a LFR ilvl, Flex ilvl, Normal ilvl, and Heroic ilvl. Sure there is some valor upgrade stuff or thunderforged, but in the general sense, there are 4 main ilvl's actually used. Blizzard can define whatever they want for the backend stat budgets that are associated.

    Another factor that can be used in an ilvl squish is a modifier based on relative level. If I'm level 90 and fighting a level 70, they can modify up my damage by 300% and the damage taken down by 300%, then cap the damage at the mobs max hp. That prevents stupid stuff like 2M dmg on a single hit since the mob can't literally take 2M dmg when it only has 2k hp. That keeps my relative power against old content intact, but when fighting current content, I don't have to do 200k-300k dps against a boss with 600M HP. Their relative power vs mine is what really matters, not the #'s that scroll by on the screen. If my dps against the current tier of content stays consistent, but grows with respect to older content, I'm progressing in power, but so is the content against which I'm playing.

    An item squish is not just shifting from an exponential progression to a linear progression if done right.

  19. #199
    too bad its not gonna happen

    common sense tells us "don't fix what's not broken". Since the system is not gonna choke on our increasing amount of damage numbers any time soon in couple of years next, there is no point making full system wide change like this. A change made like this can't be reverted, and i m sure it will introduce a lot of bugs, which is very common with a system that's couple years old. which bliz understands pretty well.

    So guess u guys have to deal with ur "mathophobia" on ur own :P

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by anjan011 View Post
    too bad its not gonna happen

    common sense tells us "don't fix what's not broken". Since the system is not gonna choke on our increasing amount of damage numbers any time soon in couple of years next, there is no point making full system wide change like this. A change made like this can't be reverted, and i m sure it will introduce a lot of bugs, which is very common with a system that's couple years old. which bliz understands pretty well.

    So guess u guys have to deal with ur "mathophobia" on ur own :P
    If Blizzard didn't think it was broken they wouldn't have bothered spending time and money coming up with a fix. They even say the game is hurting by not having the squish (though not enough to make it immediately necessary).
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