View Poll Results: On what grounds would you support Item Level Squish?

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  • If they adjust difficulty of old raids so they will not be effected

    169 36.74%
  • Even if older raids become more difficult I will support

    144 31.30%
  • No period

    114 24.78%
  • Neutral

    33 7.17%
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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Unless GC comes out and states that there is an actual, technical problem with big numbers, I stand by my position that this is a lot of work for no gain. A lot of people in this thread say numbers are ridiculous, but I fail to how 5 or 5 million are any different if they are just 20% of a monster's health.
    The work's been done. They are ready to do the squish, it's not like the team is going to manually go through every item, every mob, every raid in the game and adjust the stats; the technology is ready, they just have to decide what sorts of numbers they're aiming for. That's not trivial, but again, it's far less work than people imagine compared to manual corrections.

    I don't mean to be disrespectful to those who keep saying this is a non-issue or there is no gain (though a number of you are being pretty disrespectful to those of us who disagree with you), but there is a clear majority of people who don't like the big numbers we're seeing. It becomes unfathomable to think "cool, a staff with +2900 int!" It seems so bloated to say "awesome, I just crit for 19876972" and artificial to say that you feel an emotional difference between 1987606 and 19876069 or between 500K and 500M floating across your screen the way you used to for, say, critting over 1000 for the first time after innumerable three-digit crits. I totally understand that some of you don't feel that way, that it's just a number, and that's fine, but the majority do find it detrimental to the game, and do think it's broken and needs to be fixed. And honestly, with the guarantee that they won't break soloing with this change, I don't see why anyone would care that much one way or the other, so we might as well just go with popular opinion. Yes, I know, popular opinion isn't always right, yes, I know, if "it's just a number" is my argument than it can be your argument too, but in this case, my point is that it's just a number, so let's all just let this happen and move along to something that we'll all actually care about for more than 10 seconds after it is implemented.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Unless GC comes out and states that there is an actual, technical problem with big numbers, I stand by my position that this is a lot of work for no gain. A lot of people in this thread say numbers are ridiculous, but I fail to how 5 or 5 million are any different if they are just 20% of a monster's health.
    You mean like when they first announced it? "If we can make numbers such as floating combat text and boss health and item stats a little easier to read at a glance, then maybe we can endure numbers increasing exponentially for many digits to come. Now there are some very real computational limitations. PCs just can’t quickly perform math on very large numbers, so we’d have to solve all of those problems as well. Even today, tanks can hit the ten digit threat cap on some encounters."

    They've already done stuff to make the numbers easier to read and it helps, but it doesn't solve the technical issues.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    We’re trying the solution with commas, and K’s, and M’s, and to be honest, it helps a lot, and our hope is, by 6.0 or 7.0, players are demanding the item squish, and by then it’s not controversial at all. It’s like a celebration when we finally do it. (Source)

    I don't think Mists was hurt much from its absence, but it's still on the table for the future. (Source)

    We think the item level inflation has worked fine in MoP. We haven't given up on the idea of a squish, though TBH we were hoping to see even more demand for from players. (Source)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Nay. Even if they do it for instanced content, the problem remains for world content. MoP saw an explosion in significant world content. Pandaria will be dead and empty next expansion, so being able to solo the world bosses is important to me since there will be no one else around.

    Edit: This even applies to quest rewards. If they do the squish like on the graph, a level 60 quest will be as difficult for a squished level 90 as a level 89 quest is now, but still give a level 60 reward. Arbitrarily increasing difficulty without an equivalent increase in reward is stupid.
    I don't really understand why people feel like they should be able to solo every boss. The Dragons of Nightmare were pretty much impossible to solo, even at level 80, and I don't remember seeing anyone upset or complaining about it. And they were not the only ones. Not to mention the classes that have a hard time soloing raid bosses. So, why is it so bad that some bosses are harder or just not possible to solo?

    I should say that I did spend a lot of time farming old raids(MC, BWL, AQ, Karazhan, BT, TK, MH, etc) in Wrath and Cataclysm. I did them solo, dualboxing, with a friend/friends, with guildies, and with people I didn't even know. I also did level 60 raids in TBC. They required a bigger group but were pretty easy to pug.
    Last edited by El_Diabl0; 2013-08-01 at 12:17 AM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Wafffles View Post
    I don't mean to be disrespectful to those who keep saying this is a non-issue or there is no gain (though a number of you are being pretty disrespectful to those of us who disagree with you), but there is a clear majority of people who don't like the big numbers we're seeing. It becomes unfathomable to think "cool, a staff with +2900 int!" It seems so bloated to say "awesome, I just crit for 19876972" and artificial to say that you feel an emotional difference between 1987606 and 19876069 or between 500K and 500M floating across your screen the way you used to for, say, critting over 1000 for the first time after innumerable three-digit crits. I totally understand that some of you don't feel that way, that it's just a number, and that's fine, but the majority do find it detrimental to the game, and do think it's broken and needs to be fixed. And honestly, with the guarantee that they won't break soloing with this change, I don't see why anyone would care that much one way or the other, so we might as well just go with popular opinion. Yes, I know, popular opinion isn't always right, yes, I know, if "it's just a number" is my argument than it can be your argument too, but in this case, my point is that it's just a number, so let's all just let this happen and move along to something that we'll all actually care about for more than 10 seconds after it is implemented.
    I don't respect your position because I have never cared about how much Int was on my staff, or how big my crits were. Stats were a binary "Is it better than current equipment?" yes/no decision to me since vanilla. The numbers popping up just tell me I'm hitting my target. If they are small than normal, then there is probably some sort of shield or defense I need to react to.

    You know what makes me think "Cool!"? Good artwork. Awesome looking weapons, armor and spell effects. A spell is cool because it looks or is mechanically cool, I don't care if it does 1 damage or a billion damage, I probably won't even notice. The numbers that pop up mean nothing more to me than the change I count out to buy a snack.

    What does matter is a making old content (world and instanced content) more difficult because "Those number are ridiculous!" I don't have any feelings about you, Waffles (except they are delicious), but I don't respect you position because I find it foolish.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Nay. Even if they do it for instanced content, the problem remains for world content. MoP saw an explosion in significant world content. Pandaria will be dead and empty next expansion, so being able to solo the world bosses is important to me since there will be no one else around.

    Edit: This even applies to quest rewards. If they do the squish like on the graph, a level 60 quest will be as difficult for a squished level 90 as a level 89 quest is now, but still give a level 60 reward. Arbitrarily increasing difficulty without an equivalent increase in reward is stupid.
    Mathematically, the squish would make level 90 stuff EASIER to solo at level 95. Based on the graph they gave as an example, lets compare relative power between lvl 85 and lvl 80:


    Before the squish, lvl 85 caps out at ilvl410 and lvl 80 caps out at ilvl 275. Lvl 85 is 1.5x as powerful as the hardest lvl 80 stuff.
    After the squish, lvl 85 caps out at ilvl175 and lvl 80 caps out at ilvl 100. Lvl 85 is now 1.75x as powerful as the hardest lvl 80 stuff.

    Even without the "solo old raids" buff, you are more powerful vs the previous expansion with the squish than without.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-01 at 12:12 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    I don't understand why people are afraid of big numbers and think a processor computing them is going to put a strain on their computer at this day and ages level of technology. But hey, I guess we all have our own vices, whether or not they are based on idiotic or trivial matters is up to history.
    simple in Wrath /Tbc my pc was 80% slower then the one i have now and I had from 20 - 50 Fps in the 25 man raid .Now my PC is a monster compered to the one i had that timw wow dont look anything bether and i have 20 fps max on good .Can you explain ? and pleas dont say addons do that coz they dont for 5 yrs i use the same addons or similar bah to be honest i was useing more addons like comix and other funy stuf that time and it was workin bether

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Mathematically, the squish would make level 90 stuff EASIER to solo at level 95. Based on the graph they gave as an example, lets compare relative power between lvl 85 and lvl 80:


    Before the squish, lvl 85 caps out at ilvl410 and lvl 80 caps out at ilvl 275. Lvl 85 is 1.5x as powerful as the hardest lvl 80 stuff.
    After the squish, lvl 85 caps out at ilvl175 and lvl 80 caps out at ilvl 100. Lvl 85 is now 1.75x as powerful as the hardest lvl 80 stuff.

    Even without the "solo old raids" buff, you are more powerful vs the previous expansion with the squish than without.
    From what I understood, ilvl is not a constant value. Each point of ilvl is more valuable the larger it gets. So going from 400 to 450 is actually a bigger increase in power than going from 100 to 150, even though the first is only a 12.5% increase in ilvl and the second is a 50% increase. Something about stat prices not being linear.

    Then again, I don't have any insider knowledge and have go go by what I glean from years of Blue Posts. If you are right any my understanding is wrong/outdated (they changed the stat formulas several times since I first subscribed) then I will be a reasonably happy camper, since I will need to wait a year or two to start farming mounts/pets/transmog gear from the world mobs again post squish, but at least it would be possible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sodia View Post
    simple in Wrath /Tbc my pc was 80% slower then the one i have now and I had from 20 - 50 Fps in the 25 man raid .Now my PC is a monster compered to the one i had that timw wow dont look anything bether and i have 20 fps max on good .Can you explain ? and pleas dont say addons do that coz they dont for 5 yrs i use the same addons or similar bah to be honest i was useing more addons like comix and other funy stuf that time and it was workin bether
    Most likely the steady graphics updates WoW has gotten over the years. The style is the same but the rendering is vastly superior. I'm pretty sure the computer I first installed wow on would keel over and die trying to render Halfhill.

  8. #168
    Bloodsail Admiral Teebone's Avatar
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    I am totally for this. It will make every single point of rating, agility, whatever count. No more useless or wasted stats... it would be [ironically] a great way to re-introduce some complexity into WoW.

  9. #169
    doesnt matter to me. people will adjust and be fine with it eventually.

  10. #170
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    I don't really understand why people feel like they should be able to solo every boss. The Dragons of Nightmare were pretty much impossible to solo, even at level 80, and I don't remember seeing anyone upset or complaining about it. And they were not the only ones. Not to mention the classes that have a hard time soloing raid bosses. So, why is it so bad that some bosses are harder or just not possible to solo?

    I should say that I did spend a lot of time farming old raids(MC, BWL, AQ, Karazhan, BT, TK, MH, etc) in Wrath and Cataclysm. I did them solo, dualboxing, with a friend/friends, with guildies, and with people I didn't even know. I also did level 60 raids in TBC. They required a bigger group but were pretty easy to pug.
    I don't really understand why peope feel like they should take away things from other people. The reason nobody complained was because it simply wasn't possible yet, now we've been able to do so for a couple of years after slaying stronger and stronger bosses.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Teebone View Post
    I am totally for this. It will make every single point of rating, agility, whatever count. No more useless or wasted stats... it would be [ironically] a great way to re-introduce some complexity into WoW.
    How does that work? some stats are still better than others, 10 crit is still way better for my warrior than 10 haste is, just as much as 1000 crit > 1000 haste, some stats will still be useless and points in those stats will still be wasted, nothing much changes except that numbers time-warp back to vanilla/BC level.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    I don't understand why people are afraid of big numbers and think a processor computing them is going to put a strain on their computer at this day and ages level of technology. But hey, I guess we all have our own vices, whether or not they are based on idiotic or trivial matters is up to history.
    I'm pretty sure the folks at Blizzard understand how computers work better than some random joe here.

  13. #173
    Blizzard is not the only company having computer experts on their payroll..... so some random joes over here might have a good idea about it also without the need to create positive minds towards it.

    I am against the squish, period.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    I don't understand why people are afraid of big numbers and think a processor computing them is going to put a strain on their computer at this day and ages level of technology. But hey, I guess we all have our own vices, whether or not they are based on idiotic or trivial matters is up to history.
    Go ask your mom what the result of adding 376482368432 to 2893759327546 and you'll understand. And no, she can't use a calculator... Then call her an idiot.

    Big numbers are retarded, when you can simply have small numbers

  15. #175
    Im all for it, as long as I can solo my old stuff the way I do now.

  16. #176
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosotti View Post
    Go ask your mom what the result of adding 376482368432 to 2893759327546 and you'll understand. And no, she can't use a calculator... Then call her an idiot.

    Big numbers are retarded, when you can simply have small numbers
    376.5 billion.. I don't have problems adding 153233 and 87900, which are what we see in game now instead of those made up numbers.

    -edit- which btw is 241133 or ~241k, but I guess we're all smart enough for that. The same was as we would call a crit of 2014 a 2k crit and not "woah, dude, I just crit for 2014"
    Last edited by Asmekiel; 2013-08-01 at 12:58 PM.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmekiel View Post
    I don't really understand why peope feel like they should take away things from other people. The reason nobody complained was because it simply wasn't possible yet, now we've been able to do so for a couple of years after slaying stronger and stronger bosses.
    But you see, you're only worried about you, about now. You're not worried about the future of the game or anything else. Blizzard has more to worry about than each and every person who will be affected by changes.

    We've had so many unintended consequences caused by changes which were meant to improve the game, yet they continue to think short term because players keep complaining because of how they will be affected. I think giving players a buff in old raids to compensate for the squish will be a mistake because it will change how players see old content and their difficulty. How long will it take until players demand that they should be solo any old raid with any class they want? And what will Blizzard's excuse be?

    About the squish itself, even Ghostcrawler said it would have to happen at some point.
    Last edited by El_Diabl0; 2013-08-01 at 01:06 PM.

  18. #178
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diabl0 View Post
    But you see, you're only worried about you, about now. You're not worried about the future of the game or anything else. Blizzard has more to worry about than each and every person who will be affected by changes.
    And you care about the system resources?

  19. #179
    There is already a thread about item squish mmo frowns upon having two threads for the same content b.t.dubbs

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmekiel View Post
    And you care about the system resources?
    I sure know that my wish to have the plagued proto drake in WotLK and being so close to getting it wasn't enough for me to ask for Blizzard not to remove the mount. So, at least I know that I wouldn't put myself and what I think and want before hard choices.

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