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  1. #181
    Scarab Lord Viridiancity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnir1122 View Post
    Thing is though is that if you flesh out the characters enough, give the players more to work with in-game, then even though they might be all holy-good-boys, they wouldn't have such a linear personification. Look at Varian, he's had quite a bit of ups and downs, twists and turns. But most probably don't know why he went from a bloodthirsty warrior to a calculating, intelligent commander who mixes brains with brawn. If more of his past struggle was displayed or made available in-game, it would make his character more immersive.

    All of the Alliance leaders are actually pretty damn cool if you dig up their full lore. It's just not represented in-game, and to me that's a waste. Many people aren't going to go out of their way to read a book or a 12 page short story on a fictional character, so the actual audience they're speaking to by going about it in that way isn't the smartest.

    I just hope they learn from their mistakes and start fleshing out all of the leaders, both Horde and Alliance, in the coming years. It would put Blizz in a good spot lore wise and maybe even bring back some of the immersiveness back into the game.
    Burning Crusade: lolno. Homeworld of the Orcs, adopted world of the Draenei. Draenei lore ended pretty quickly, never getting as far as the raid level, and was totally Blood Elf lore by the end (Half of Black Temple, Sunwell, The Eye).

    Wrath of the Lich King: Moreso than Burning Crusade, arguably. Tauren and Dwarves both uncover long lost ancient relatives. Forsaken faction schism, large scale forsaken military movement against the Lich King. Small bit of Gnome lore. Reasonable bit of Blood Elf lore (via Sunreavers, Quel'delar). Minor Night Elf lore (failed world tree). 0 Draenei lore (what the fuck else is new?). Major human lore. Little Orc lore. Little Troll lore (not the right kind of trolls, at least).

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheathx View Post
    You have to think, The Burning Crusader and WOTLK were HIGHLY packed with alliance lore, more then horde. So where is the pain in having cata and MoP give horde alot of lore? How do you think they felt during TBC and WOTLK where the two main big bads originated from the alliance factions. llidan a night elf, Arthas the prince of lordaeron and a human, tirion who helped defeat arthas, along with it was almost fully the alliance army which invaded the citadel. Bolvar who takes the place as the next lich king, who was also an alliance solider ect, And then finished it all off with the return of their king ect.

    As a horde player I honestly feel bad the alliance do get screwed over next patch but hell, they have had a shit ton of lore development in the past well the horde got non.
    BC and Alliance Lore? Where exactly?
    The whole addon was basically centered around bloodelves in outlands and orcs in nagrad as far as story developing goes.
    Granted there has been a bit for draenei aswell. I would say that BC was actuallypretty balanced in terms of lore.

    Orcs learned about their origin.
    The Alliance learned what happend to those left in the outlands and the new races had major screen time.


    I still don't get why the horde refered Wotlk as Alliance centric.
    granted the Lichking was a former Alliance character but that has changed even before WoW was released. And the rest? You got Garrosh taking controll of the horde for the very first time you had this guy developing through the entire expension.
    The Alliance had ... well lost Dalaran to a neutral town and Tirion who was also neutral.

    And then Cata ... well we don'tspeak about cata, right? Even the most biased horde fanboy can hardly deny how horde centric the whole expension has been.



    So with BC being retty balanced and Wotlk being more an expension about neutral chars, cata being entirely horde centric; Where exactly is the justification for MoP being also extremly horde centric?

  3. #183
    If fel orcs count as Horde lore, then Arthas counts as Alliance lore.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If fel orcs count as Horde lore, then Arthas counts as Alliance lore.
    hell if fel orcs count as Horde than the Scourge count as Alliance
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  5. #185
    I agree with what others have said, the Alliance is the picture of solidarity and cooperation. And that's pretty damn dull. There needs to be more conflict. Have the Worgen start getting more vicious and trying to push others into their curse instead of just offering it, say around Stromgarde. Set off some strife between the Gnomes and Dwarves when a Gnome with an agenda unleashes something bad in Ironforge, push some kind of separatist movement in the Night Elves, have the Draenei do something besides /waggle and bad Russian accents, maybe some kind of zealous Scarlet Crusade-ish action.

    Though IME it'll just get a backlash and cries of Horde favoritism if they do.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    I agree with what others have said, the Alliance is the picture of solidarity and cooperation. And that's pretty damn dull.

    Though IME it'll just get a backlash and cries of Horde favoritism if they do.
    id suspect people would then complain they are ruining the Alliance by making them do 'bad' things
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #187
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If fel orcs count as Horde lore, then Arthas counts as Alliance lore.
    Blood Elves and Forsaken also count as Alliance lore.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    id suspect people would then complain they are ruining the Alliance by making them do 'bad' things
    Probably.

    But good storywriting does not mean black and white stereotypes.


    The thing is that the Alliance seems to idle more than they act. While the Hode and their races are all somehow doing something, even if it is offscreen like the Forsaken.
    You don't have that feeling with the Alliance.

    Sure we have major Human storylines but that's pretty much it, while these storylines basically center aroudn losing something.

    The Nightelves as the second military might in the Alliance have done basically nothing since Vanilla. The Dwarves and Gnomes never had a big role beside Bran and his archeology.

    Draenei ... meh.
    Worgens had their story cut and granted to the Horde.



    The thing is just the lack of story for the Alliance overall. Just look how well developed and rich the Horde story is with MoP again. What did the Alliance get? The "Highking Trials" have been scraped and replaced with subpar scenarios.
    The Alliance still didn't show up on teh PTR.
    We lost Theramore while not even being there ... we just came to see a crate.

    So beisde that I don't see myjor Alliance lore in that expenasion aswell.
    For me it's not about losing stuff, it's about how we lose it and how it is displayed ingame ... while the little accomplishments the Alliance gets are not even shown ingame.

  9. #189
    cant we all just agree that Blizzard sucks at writing stories/lore?

    /end thread!

  10. #190
    This thread is going places.
    What is the point of this fruitless quarell over which faction is the continuation of its Warcraft 2 self? This is the theatre of a single actor due to his seemingly limitless fortitude as a poster. Why don't you all just put a closure to it all by not replying further? These posts only blot out any other line of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    There is no deadline.

    If you are happy enough to see NEW & IMPROVED Alliance being brought to the spotlight somewhere at the time of "The Titan Project"'s completion, then be my guest

    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnir1122 View Post
    Look at Varian, he's had quite a bit of ups and downs, twists and turns. But most probably don't know why he went from a bloodthirsty warrior to a calculating, intelligent commander who mixes brains with brawn. If more of his past struggle was displayed or made available in-game, it would make his character more immersive.
    HAHAHAHAHA NO.

    Varian has the appearance of a generic 'edgy' hero straight from an average animu-stylised webcomic and has the kind of depth and characterization that would merit an article on Bad Webcomics Wiki. He is a terrible character whose recent 'provess' has been established by making other Alliance leaders behave like morons as soon as joint operation goes underway.
    Last edited by Antoine de Coolette; 2013-08-02 at 07:54 AM.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    id suspect people would then complain they are ruining the Alliance by making them do 'bad' things
    I agree, but I also think it would be boring. The bad traits of the Horde races are pretty interesting. The devious cunning of the undead and the fierce savagery of the orcs are fun concepts. The Alliance bad traits are greed, corruption and elitism. Even dialed up these traits aren't as interesting.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    id suspect people would then complain they are ruining the Alliance by making them do 'bad' things
    And rightfully so. A lot of people like it that the alliance is the lawful faction and stands together.
    I really don't get some posters here. Look at this one for example :

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx16 View Post
    I agree, but I also think it would be boring. The bad traits of the Horde races are pretty interesting. The devious cunning of the undead and the fierce savagery of the orcs are fun concepts. The Alliance bad traits are greed, corruption and elitism. Even dialed up these traits aren't as interesting.
    So if you find the Horde races and traits so much more interesting, why did you chose Alliance as your faction ?
    I don't get this in several Alliance players here. They like everything about the Horde, the looks, the races, the lore and so on and hate the Alliance counterparts. I have to ask why they chose Alliance in the first place ?
    "I joined team blue but i hate the color blue. Red is so much more awesome. Red favouritism ! Change blue to red at once or i'll quit!"...

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    hell if fel orcs count as Horde than the Scourge count as Alliance
    It does, in a sense at least, but you also can't deny that Arthas' story is more deeply tied to the story of Lordaeron, now largely represented by the Forsaken, and Quel'thelas, now also horde. I'm NOT SAYING ARTHAS WAS A HORDE LEADER before anyone tries to twist my words around, only that there are two horde races that have a deeper investment in seeing Arthas dead than any of the playable Alliance nations, Darnassus, Stormwind, Ironforge and Gnomeregan, did.

    As for Wrath overall, I think it very well COULD have been a horde leaning expansion...except that they kind of cut the Forsaken out of the story after Dragonblight, and their role of vengeful undead was taken over by the Ebon Blade in Zul'drak and Icecrown. And considering the importance of Brann and Bolvar in the storyline, I would say that it was an Alliance leaning expansion, even if not as much as Cata leaning horde.

  14. #194
    The Lightbringer Ciddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Maybe if the alliance asked to have one of its characters become the bad guy and add some contrast to your faction, you might get some depth to it.

    This is why the horde has more interesting story, because it has its share of good guys and bad guys in it, well the alliance keeps perpetuating itself as holy-good-boys, and thats.. really boring.
    We _kinda_ did...there was the whole Archbishop Benedictus thing. He almost counted as a faction leader, considering he actually WAS Stormwind's boss for a brief period between patches back in Vanilla once (I can't remember the details, but he briefly replaced Bolvar as Stormwind's "official" faction leader). Although....I don't think anyone ever actually liked him to begin with anyway, and he just ended up being a forgettable 5-man boss. Who had POWAH.

    I'm drawing a blank here trying to remember what other major alliance characters/leaders have recently done anything like that though. I was actually hoping we'd go that direction with Jaina in Tides of War, but no such luck.
    Last edited by Ciddy; 2013-08-02 at 02:53 PM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciddy View Post
    We _kinda_ did...there was the whole Archbishop Benedictus thing. He almost counted as a faction leader, considering he actually WAS Stormwind's boss for a brief period between patches back in Vanilla once (I can't remember the details, but he briefly replaced Bolvar as Stormwind's "official" faction leader). Although....I don't think anyone ever actually liked him to begin with anyway, and he just ended up being a forgettable 5-man boss. Who had POWAH.

    I'm drawing a blank here trying to remember what other major alliance characters/leaders have recently done anything like that though. I was actually hoping we'd go that direction with Jaina in Tides of War, but no such luck.
    Fandral Staghelm as well, he was a night elf leader with, as I recall, almost as much influence as Tyrande in Vanilla until they revealed he was crazy all along. Two Alliance bad guys in one expansion who show up only to antagonize Thrall and be killed by players. Sure, none were as high up as Warhcief on the roster, but it's not like it never happens.

  16. #196
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    But how much did Benedictus or Fandral actually do in-game before their immediately "Dey dun gon cray-cray!" storylines. Not much. Fandral had a quest or two in Teldrassil and then the story that his son was killed by Qiraji, where Benedictus had 2 quests that were then removed in Cataclysm.

    Even though I did like the whole "Druids of the Flame" thing in Cataclysm, it sucks that we can't have faction leaders who oppose the current mindset of "X is a great leader, we can't question them." Whether or not X is Varian or Tyrande.

    Also, just fyi, Benedictus' "coup" thing wasn't a canon event. It was just a random change they made to who was the technical "leader" of Stormwind for a small amount of time.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-08-02 at 03:15 PM.

  17. #197
    For me as a Horde player, I still feel for Alliance. so much potential to make things right story wise after Cataclysm. Also so simple but it should have started with the beginning of MoP.
    Gnomes -> Gelbin Mekkatorque calls for heroes to fight the Horde, giving Alliance players various tasks that goes through the patches - gathering mats, upgrading technology, industrial espionage of goblins research and sabotaging Horde science efforts.
    Night Elves -> Malfurion and Cenarius are finally tired of corrupted brutes that tints the Ashenvale. Alliance characters will join them on epic adventure in reclaiming what rightfully theirs.
    Worgens -> Time to get Gilneas back! This campaign is easy - you first clear remains of the Forsaken and sets of for crazy journey through Azeroth to cure the Plague, crush ruins of the Graymane Wall and build a new fortress that will give Alliance control over part of the Silverpine forest (Dark Lady would build similar thing and between those would be constant war so you can replace Battle for Gilneas BG with something like Towers of Silverpine).
    Dranei -> Velen sees the war efforts of the others and he cant sit idle any more. Alliance players will face monumental task - though Exodar can not be fixed there are three Dranei ships that still can fly. You will gather crystals, energy sources and complete many tasks that will lead you to pilot Mechanar, Botanica an Arcatraz to fight the Horde.
    All of this crap would be high level only and and zones would change for them only(less dev time and leveling zones were olways stuck in the past), all of this could be achieved through quests, scenarios, 5 man or raids. It is just an example and not the very good one. Blizzard can do better, they are just lazy.
    Last edited by Crazozourus; 2013-08-02 at 04:01 PM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazozourus View Post
    Worgens -> Time to get Gilneas back! This campaign is easy - you first clear remains of the Forsaken and sets of for crazy journey through Azeroth to cure the Plague, crush ruins of the Graymane Wall and build a new fortress that will give Alliance control over part of the Silverpine forest (Dark Lady would build similar thing and between those would be constant war so you can replace Battle for Gilneas BG with something like Towers of Silverpine).
    They probably didn't do this because the Worgen would spend way too much time in 1 zone. They already spent 1-12 in Gilneas, then to send players back there for a whole bunch more time... gotta change up the scenery. They can't turn Silverpine into a contested zone, it's the Horde's only leveling zone in the area. Forsaken wouldn't have anywhere to go for 10-20 and the zone balance would be off again. (yes, I saw your thing about phasing/scenario/etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazozourus View Post
    Dranei -> Velen sees the war efforts of the others and he cant sit idle any more. Alliance players will face monumental task - though Exodar can not be fixed there are three Dranei ships that still can fly. You will gather crystals, energy sources and complete many tasks that will lead you to pilot Mechanar, Botanica an Arcatraz to fight the Horde.
    Exodar is repaired. Mech, Bot, Arc, and even Exodar (they stole it) aren't Draenei ships, they're all pieces of the Naaru ship the Naaru used to get to Outland.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-02 at 06:16 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    They probably didn't do this because the Worgen would spend way too much time in 1 zone. They already spent 1-12 in Gilneas, then to send players back there for a whole bunch more time... gotta change up the scenery. They can't turn Silverpine into a contested zone, it's the Horde's only leveling zone in the area. Forsaken wouldn't have anywhere to go for 10-20 and the zone balance would be off again. (yes, I saw your thing about phasing/scenario/etc)


    Exodar is repaired. Mech, Bot, Arc, and even Exodar (they stole it) aren't Draenei ships, they're all pieces of the Naaru ship they used to get to Outland.
    My understanding is that Ogushon or however it's spelled in Nagrand is what the Draenei arrived on Draenor in, and then A'dal and the other Naaru arrived at some point after Frozen Throne but before BC in Tempest Keep, which was later attacked and overtaken by blood elves, with some draenei managing to capture and escape in the Exodar, but not without sabotage.

  20. #200
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    They probably didn't do this because the Worgen would spend way too much time in 1 zone. They already spent 1-12 in Gilneas, then to send players back there for a whole bunch more time... gotta change up the scenery. They can't turn Silverpine into a contested zone, it's the Horde's only leveling zone in the area. Forsaken wouldn't have anywhere to go for 10-20 and the zone balance would be off again. (yes, I saw your thing about phasing/scenario/etc)


    Exodar is repaired. Mech, Bot, Arc, and even Exodar (they stole it) aren't Draenei ships, they're all pieces of the Naaru ship they used to get to Outland.
    That part is what pisses me off most about Blizz's writing right now. It's not that the Forsaken have nowhere to go. If you roll a PvP server, get used to PvP. The ONLY reason Worgen were not given the ability to level in Lordaeron alongside the Forsaken was because Blizz had to be perfectly tit-for-tat in "Goblins lost their capital, bum with orcs. Worgen lose their capital, bum with Night Elves."

    If they weren't so obsessed with making the game totally 1:1 for Horde and Alliance, maybe we wouldn't have the rampant Horde bias that's developed since ICC.
    You don't create "justice" by destroying. That includes buildings, cars, or the careers of the people you want "justice" for.


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