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  1. #261
    By that same token you should acknowledge the moderators' right to disagree with you as well. Obviously the site lets you have an opinion. You weren't infracted or banned, were you
    I was just addressing that the moderator told me to find a different game and support it and quit wasting my life. No big deal, i didn't intend to hit a nerve.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    I was just addressing that the moderator told me to find a different game and support it and quit wasting my life. No big deal, i didn't intend to hit a nerve.
    You didn't hit a nerve. I was just pointing out that the statement in question was personal advice from a fellow poster, not an official "do this or else it's the ban hammer for you" warning from a moderator. Some times it's easy to mix up the two.

  3. #263
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Like I have said a few times in this thread, do not pigeon hole yourself on following the original post here as 100% correct or it has to be done this way exactly, a variant of the main points or discussing the ideas isn't going to kill you. I played WoW for 7 years and believe I can post my thoughts on it and what improvements I would like to see, just like anyone else here.

    Yeah, you might not like it obviously (my opinion) but I would like to believe this site lets users have an opinion. From your statement, WoW is perfect, I disagree and actually would hope you are ok with someone having the right to disagree here.
    1. No one is questioning your right to have an opinion or post about it. So you can put that thought aside unless you take particular pleasure in being a martyr.

    2. Stop putting words in my mouth: I didn't say it was perfect. I said it is what it is and trying to change it into something it isn't is a waste of time. That's my opinion. Frankly, life is too short and wasting any piece of it on tilting at windmills when there are other projects out there that would be more worthwhile is not a good use of it.

    Just to be clear, if I have anything to say to anyone as a moderator it will look like this.

    Otherwise I'm just like anyone else and should be treated as such. If there are issues, feel free to PM me or send a message to an admin or something.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-08-01 at 08:40 PM.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  4. #264
    For the love of science, we are not talking about religion here, remain open and join the conversation, you might not like mine and vice versa but that ok.

    (meant for everyone)

  5. #265
    If this happened wow would turn to F2P and than have less than 100,000 subscribers than 0 within a few weeks.

  6. #266
    I agreed with the #2 social aspect. Mmos should really focus around grouping significantly more than soloing. It's what makes the genre unique.

    The rest seemed to be a depiction of an extremely hardcore mmo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    For the love of science, we are not talking about religion here, remain open and join the conversation, you might not like mine and vice versa but that ok.
    Actually this conversation resembles a religious debate more than it does a science debate. If this were science we could cite facts and empirical evidence proving or disproving that one change is better than another. As it is, we all speculate and put forth the individual conjectures that most closely resemble our personal experiences. Obviously with such a diverse player base everyone's experience is going to differ. That's why everyone will have different opinions on this. You need to understand with so many different positions over so many different topics only a very small handful will ever agree with your specific take on any one thing. This is not because you're stupid or wrong; it's because everyone's experiences differ. No one is singling you out here. I'm sure that for every poster who agrees with anything I've ever said there are 7-10 others who don't.

    Heck, one time I posted that maybe it would be nice for everyone to try and be nice to each other in game, to always put forth their best effort, and to maybe try and educate "bad" players instead of raging at them all the time. I was shocked at the number of posters who couldn't even get on board with that!!!

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Actually this conversation resembles a religious debate more than it does a science debate. If this were science we could cite facts and empirical evidence proving or disproving that one change is better than another. As it is, we all speculate and put forth the individual conjectures that most closely resemble our personal experiences. Obviously with such a diverse player base everyone's experience is going to differ. That's why everyone will have different opinions on this. You need to understand with so many different positions over so many different topics only a very small handful will ever agree with your specific take on any one thing. This is not because you're stupid or wrong; it's because everyone's experiences differ. No one is singling you out here. I'm sure that for every poster who agrees with anything I've ever said there are 7-10 others who don't.

    Heck, one time I posted that maybe it would be nice for everyone to try and be nice to each other in game, to always put forth their best effort, and to maybe try and educate "bad" players instead of raging at them all the time. I was shocked at the number of posters who couldn't even get on board with that!!!
    You give some posters too much credit. Sometimes they are stupid and/or wrong.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    No, which is why you have accessible leveling, 5-mans and LFR. In a sandbox game, what do you have besides gathering and maybe some crafting?


    No, but they provide a strong deterrent. Which is something you want to avoid. That is why, even in EvE, you have sec levels.
    ...

    The original topic was about emergent gameplay. Let players "direct the plot".

    You can have that without impacting the solo player much as long as you provide things for him to do. Those who want the "drama", competition, ... etc., they can go ahead and have their "clan wars". Those who don't can, as you mentioned, do 5-mans, LFR, level alts, ... etc.

    The problem with WoW is players have next to no control over how things play out - apart from clear raid, don't clear raid.

  10. #270
    Scarab Lord Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Were the 5 million the hardcore players? Because as far as I know hardcore content is alive and well. Consider 8+ heroic raid bosses every three months versus 0 five mans in 9 months. Who's leaving again and why?
    i'm not sure how the changes made up to this day are catering to the hardcore players. My comment was aimed at the idea that the game has become too casual. So casual that even the casuals are leaving.

    There should be a middle ground.
    WoW is no longer an MMORPG. It is now a MMOAAG (Massively Multiplayer Online Action Adventure Game)

  11. #271
    Me and most of my gaming friends would love a decent MMO like that again, we're really tired of the theme park MMOs.

    The problem with other MMOs like this failing wasn't because the concept was bad, or people didn't enjoy it, it's just that usually MMOs designed like this have low production values and very little polish so playing them is like scratching your eyes with a rusty spoon. But really, nearly every MMO that released since they existed, except for WoW, has been low production value.

    The only first really polished MMO that is going to be released again is Wildstar...
    Last edited by Rochana; 2013-08-01 at 09:24 PM.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Satus View Post
    3. Stop the Hero Crap
    I think at this point the MMO community is really sick and tired of being spoon fed false praise and constantly told we are HEROES. It’s insulting to our intelligence. EQ Next devs need to focus on the we instead of the me. WoW style quests are a big part of the problem here as they continually force feed players the hero self-esteem mantra. People already get enough bogus self-esteem from parents, teachers and politicians. Telling players they are special breeds self-centered players instead of community-centered players. True heroism is its own reward and a real hero doesn’t require a Flaming Sword of Doom for killing 10 rats.

    This point right here, and several others that follow, is ultimately the core of his argument. Its also a horribly flawed core that doesn't last, we'll talk about the real reasons why in a fiew points. For now just read what he is saying and note that his only use of the term "we" or "our" is only when he is praising his own intelligence, projecting his view on everyone, or saying that they need to do what he wants for everyone. THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT LATER.

    4. Let Players Form their Own Memories and Make their Own Stories
    With WoW, the story became the focal point. The quest designers and storytellers dictated how players should act. Players were herded into an episodic narrative that has no deviation and only one outcome. Players became puppets that blindly went from golden question mark to golden question mark doing the bidding of the quest designer.
    Force feeding players stories and that are not their own and instead driving them into the box of contrived narratives is a recipe for disaster and erodes the cooperative spirit which is the bedrock of creating a good community. This is what Blizzard has been doing for years and they have the worst player community in MMO history to show for it.


    I can think of about 4 quests that WoW has spoon-fed me story from that I remember really fondly, he has a point that many people don't want an episodic narrative. But he then shackles it into a false dilemma by saying that narrative prevents people from forming their own stories and memories. This is objectively wrong. Ask anyone who has played WoW for a while and they will have tons of stories from their experiences that have shaped their vies on the game and made them keep coming back to it. Many of those stories will be of failures and gameplay the devs never intended, and thats OK. I've only ever once seen a MMO that actively interfered with people doing this, and it was, ironically enough, UO. The design philosophy in UO actively prevented you from making many of your own stories because you were in a zero sum game with other players for the things you needed to make your memory. More about zero sum games later. Please note again that he doesn't group himself with any of the "puppets" he is criticizing. This is important.
    Maybe you are reading too much into it.

    The "hero" thing is kind of stupid. I cringe a little every time "hero" shows up in quest text. Do we really need to have a game "flatter" us? And for most part, apart from quest text, we aren't really treated like "heroes". The illusion is incomplete. The insincerity shows.

    Secondly, WoW doesn't give you much choice in what to do. You are herded from one zone to another, from one quest chain to another. There aren't any choices for your character to make. We all grind the same rep, run the same dungeons, level the same bunch of professions in the same predetermined way, ... etc. We are practically on-rails. Can we say, "No. I don't want to do Garrosh's bidding."? Nope, you aren't given an alternative. Don't do the quests you say, sure get blocked out of an entire zone of content ...

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Me and most of my gaming friends would love a decent MMO like that again, we're really tired of the theme park MMOs.

    The problem with other MMOs like this failing wasn't because the concept was bad, or people didn't enjoy it, it's just that usually MMOs designed like this have low production values and very little polish so playing them is like scratching your eyes with a rusty spoon. But really, nearly every MMO that released since they existed, except for WoW, has been low production value.

    The only first really polished MMO that is going to be released again is Wildstar...
    Just curious but what 'hardcore' MMOs have you played? The reason you give for their demise gives the impression you've never played anything other than WoW.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Just curious but what 'hardcore' MMOs have you played? The reason you give for their demise gives the impression you've never played anything other than WoW.
    'hardcore' ? I'm not sure what you mean with that... compared to WoW almost every prior MMO was hardcore.

    But the game I most fondly remember was LineAge II ... It gave much more sense of a community than WoW ever did... and it pretty much is close to what the OP described. Dungeons weren't instanced, but were like huge battlefields where multiple guilds tried to fight their ways through the enemy (pve) army, to reach the bosses. That was truely epic and gave a real sense of some war going on between your faction and some enemy faction.

    Imagine if Icecrown Citadel hadn't been instanced, but was a world zone where you had to fight through the Scourge army to reach the bosses. Many raidgroups perished and died, others stormed through the frontlines victoriously and ended up slaying raidbosses with half the server staring at them in awe from a far and a safe distance. Because when this happened hundreds of guilds usually had been trying for weeks already to try and get through the armies of enemies (and gearing up from the materials those dropped).
    Last edited by Rochana; 2013-08-01 at 09:44 PM.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    'hardcore' ? I'm not sure what you mean with that... compared to WoW almost every prior MMO was hardcore.

    But the game I most fondly remember was LineAge II ... It gave much more sense of a community than WoW ever did... and it pretty much is close to what the OP described. Dungeons weren't instanced, but were like huge battlefields where multiple guilds tried to fight their ways through the enemy (pve) army, to reach the bosses. That was truely epic and gave a real sense of some war going on between your faction and some enemy faction.

    Imagine if Icecrown Citadel hadn't been instanced, but was a world zone where you had to fight through the Scourge army to reach the bosses. Many raidgroups perished and died, others stormed through the frontlines victoriously and ended up slaying raidbosses with half the server staring at them in awe from a far and a safe distance. Because when this happened hundreds of guilds usually had been trying for weeks already to try and get through the armies of enemies (and gearing up from the materials those dropped).
    It is honestly like you never played an MMO prior to WoW. I played EQ since launch and I can tell you that not being the first guild to a non-instanced raid sucks. If you expect players to just sit and watch another guild do ICC while you are blocked from it continues to prove you were never there to witness what it was like prior to instancing. Hell I also find it hilarious you think Wildstar is going to be so great when it's pretty much just WoW with housing and a Ratchet and Clank coat of paint slapped on.
    Last edited by Xeraxis; 2013-08-01 at 09:52 PM.

  16. #276
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Imagine if Icecrown Citadel hadn't been instanced, but was a world zone where you had to fight through the Scourge army to reach the bosses. Many raidgroups perished and died, others stormed through the frontlines victoriously and ended up slaying raidbosses with half the server staring at them in awe from a far and a safe distance. Because when this happened hundreds of guilds usually had been trying for weeks already to try and get through the armies of enemies (and gearing up from the materials those dropped).
    So the rest of us get to sit and watch as the top guild on our server does the raid and kills the boss while we clear the path for them through some mooks like henchmen? Yeah, no thanks. I don't know anyone who would find playing second fiddle fun. I like the idea of being a hero; one of the best things about Rift was the idea that you WEREN'T some peasant who aspired to be a hero, you WERE a hero. Either you ended the civil war (Guardian; one of the first NPCs you talk to even says something like "I've heard stories about you all my life") or you are the hope of the future (Defiant) who has to save the world. I'll take that any day over being some nobody farmboy.

    People need to get rid of this "stand in awe at the top raiders" mentality.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-08-01 at 09:54 PM.
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  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Its honestly like you never played an MMO prior to WoW. I played EQ since launch and I can tell you that not being the first guild to a non-instanced raid sucks. If you expect players to just sit and watch another guild do ICC while you are blocked from it continues to prove you were never there to witness what it was like prior to instancing. Hell I also find it hilarious you think Wildstar is going to be so great when it's pretty much just WoW with housing and a Ratchet and Clank coat of paint slapped on.
    First of all. I didn't say anything about Wildstar except that it's the first really polished MMO since WoW, so keep your judgemental "hating every game that isn't from Blizzard"-attitude for someone else, thanks.

    Secondly, you're dead wrong. There were many many guilds that got great experiences from those non-instanced raids on every realm, some non-instanced raids were even developped so that you needed multiple guilds to work together to simultaneously get through the raidzone to begin with.

    Thirdly. I don't care about MMOs that cater to the lowest common denominator. I want quality. I don't care if it a few thousands or a few hundred thousand subscribers, some of the best online MMOs I play currently only have a few hundred members and have more content, activity and more community drive than WoW. So really... WoW is just like fast-food, not quality for more dedicated MMO players, in my PERSONAL experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    People need to get rid of this "stand in awe at the top raiders" mentality.
    No. People need to get rid of the entitlement. A world in which everyone has to be the hero is just pointless and childish in my eyes. You can keep playing your fake-ass multi-million MMO game where everyone gets rewarded with legendaries and hero-titles for sneezing and farting.

    I'll stick to what I consider quality instead.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    i'm not sure how the changes made up to this day are catering to the hardcore players. My comment was aimed at the idea that the game has become too casual. So casual that even the casuals are leaving.

    There should be a middle ground.
    Maybe because I have yet to meet a casual player who stated that they preferred being able to faceroll their way through a 25-man raid over having a wide array of moderately challenging 5-man raids. The misconception is that LFR caters to casuals. It really doesn't. No casual ever wrote Blizzard asking:
    Please do away with 5-man content that my friends and I can knock out in 30-45 minutes and replace it with a 25-man raid that I never wanted to do. While you're at it, set it up so that my 4 friends and I are forced to group with 20 people, many of whom will complain about being 'forced' to 'carry' the others, some of whom will go AFK to prove a point, and some of whom will be experiencing this content for the first time and will therefore drop dead about 20 seconds into each boss fight, thereby expanding every 25-minute LFR run to 90 minutes. Oh, yeah. While you're at it please give me a flat 15% loot drop rate that is effectively gimped to 5% once I've collected or superseded the 2/3 useful items that drop from a given boss. That's what I've been dreaming of!
    In reality LFR is a consolation prize that was nonchalantly dumped on casual players so that they can continue to focus on putting out new heroic raids for hardcore guilds every three months without having to "waste" time creating new heroic 5-mans for the casuals. I agree that there should be a middle ground. The choices shouldn't be:
    • Solo
    • Run 20-minute 3-mans that don't even require healers or tanks
    • Play with 9-24 other people even though you really only wanted to play with 3 or 4 of your friends
    Unfortunately those are the options today's casual player is given.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-08-01 at 10:05 PM.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    First of all. I didn't say anything about Wildstar except that it's the first really polished MMO since WoW, so keep your judgemental "hating every game that isn't from Blizzard"-attitude for someone else, thanks.

    Secondly, you're dead wrong. There were many many guilds that got great experiences from those non-instanced raids on every realm, some non-instanced raids were even developped so that you needed multiple guilds to work together to simultaneously get through the raidzone to begin with.

    Thirdly. I don't care about MMOs that cater to the lowest common denominator. I want quality. I don't care if it a few thousands or a few hundred thousand subscribers, some of the best online MMOs I play currently only have a few hundred members and have more content, activity and more community drive than WoW. So really... WoW is just like fast-food, not quality for more dedicated MMO players, in my PERSONAL experience.
    That's so odd I wasn't aware there were MMOs with only a few hundred players. Makes the first M kinda pointless doesn't it? I also have to be amazed at these developers pumping out more content than Blizzard with only a couple hundred players providing them with funds.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    No. People need to get rid of the entitlement. A world in which everyone has to be the hero is just pointless and childish in my eyes. You can keep playing your fake-ass multi-million MMO game where everyone gets rewarded with legendaries and hero-titles for sneezing and farting.
    So you're saying video games are pointless and childish. If you want to experience a world in which heroism is earned and not granted, then shut off your computer and step outside. Quit expecting a form of entertainment that has always been intended as an escape from reality to provide you with the same level of realism as you get in day-to-day life.

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