A great write up that Blizzard should think about

[Unclekreepy]

In other words, make content for everybody!

isn't that exactly what WOW is trying to do? .. and no one likes it.

there is pretty much raiding for every type of player that exists right now.

[Daskapital]

Solution: have a UI feature to "turn on" penalty deaths, no quests, no instances. See how many people turn it on. Hahaha

You can do that now. Next time you die force yourself to take a 20 minute break from whatever you're doing. If you really want to be hardcore, delete a random piece of gear. This is totally doable by an individual player and no one can stop you from imposing your very own death penalty in the game. Why not do it yourself if you love this idea so much? It is fully within your power to do.


2. Grouping Must be Encouraged and Soloing Must be Discouraged.

So stop soloing. Only do stuff in group dungeons. Problem solved.

3. Stop the Hero Crap ...

You completely have the ability to level exclusively through dungeons and grinding mobs. Do it if you love that idea so much.

4. Let Players Form their Own Memories and Make their Own Stories

Are you so devoid of imagination that you can't just ignore that a story happened? Every time I level an alt I pretty much ignore every last part of the story and just move as fast as I can from quest to quest. I really don't care if that last NPC said that I didn't kill that stupid escort NPC, in the story i made for my character in my head, he totally shanked that guy and took his money. I mean seriously, if you can't even override the game story with your own made up storylines, you probably won't be making particularly interesting or imaginative stories on your own.

5. Quests Should Be Rare and Special
Don't like quests? Don't quest. Done and done!

8. No Easy Travel
Don't use your mount if you dont have to. There you go, hard travel.

ANy player who wants these changes can totally play like this if they want. I don't understand why you aren't just doing it if you think itll increase your game play so much.

[Normie]

isn't that exactly what WOW is trying to do? .. and no one likes it.

there is pretty much raiding for every type of player that exists right now.

No one likes it? Really?

[melodramocracy]

So said every MMO that has turned the lights off.

All 4 or 5 of them.

[Deleted]

hey people !

i haven't read through the whole thread - was just to much for me :P

but for the most part i agree with the OP ... games have gotten too easy and players don't need to care that much anymore. which makes me sad.
what they said so far about EQnext sounds great! The only thing that kind of discourages me is the part where group play should be better than solo play.

i know that it would be hard to balance, but group play should have equal outcome to solo play so every player can decide what he's up to right now. had a hard day at work and want to chill out playing solo content, not needing to worry about anybody else? go for it ... haven't met your friends in a while and decided to spent some online time with them? go for it!

as i already said it won't be easy to balance, but still: solo and group content should be equal in Exp earned, skills invested and gear acquired (at least for leveling gear).

Especially i liked the parts about death penalties and player administered worlds.
Atm i'm playing Tibia, kind of an ancient german RPG that has a horrible death punishment: you lose 10% of ALL (experience, skill advancement) and you have a 10% chance on every item you wear to lose it upon death. with investing money in so-called blessings you can reduce the item dropchance to 0% and the ep and skill loss to roughly 3,5% ... still i'd lose a whole level if i died and i'd definately lose about 2-3 skill points ... (skill points in Tibia are part of the damage equation, the higher your - let's say - Sword Skill is, the higher your dmg. and you earn skills by training - which means: hitting a self-healing mob with the weakest weapon you have - for hours! (e.g. dist 99-100 took me about 45 hours of standing about and hitting a vampire ...))
so yes: when dieing is absolute no option, players will be more careful. they will take risks now and then, but they will read about encounters, inform themselves and ultimately become better players over all.

also the player administered worlds are something one can see in Tibia.
If you earn yourself a bad reputation on a PvP server you can be sure that there are some righteous people that will hunt you down ... (and as mentioned above: dieing will make you lose levels, skills and equipment ...) that's a pretty damn good reason to be nice to others

- - - Updated - - -

I'm all for reduced (not eliminated) soloing, as I do feel things like LFR/crossrealm LFG seriously diminished the sense of community. Do I miss waiting 30 mins for a tank? Not really. But do I miss the sense of pride at knowing that people outside my guild on my server knew my reputation as a quality dpser and healer because I had grouped with them a few times? Abso-friggen-lutely.

yep. .. that was great. back in BC, shortly after it was release, my best friend (warrior tank) and me (mage) went instances together and some people remembered our names ... then the time for heroics began and we were quite successful (first Shadow Lab clear run before the huge nerf, at least on my server) ... everytime i logged into the game i instantly became about 4-5 whispers if i'd wanted to join a heroic group. and you know what? i gladly did ... not because i needed items from that particular heroic instance nor did i need reputation, but i knew the people asking me and i know that i'd have fun with them.

participating in LFG nowadays is just a pain ... there is absolutely no communication between the group members... everyone suspects the other to know EVERYTHING about the instance, and if it turns out to be not the case, someone gets pissed immediatly and leaves ... playing with pissed people isn't fun at all ...

[Unclekreepy]

No one likes it? Really?

you haven't seen the 1,000 threads about how LFR is killing the game? and the game is so boring?


I even agree with that, there is NO point in even trying to do lfr unless you plan on moving up to normal / hard modes.

[Deleted]

You can do that now. Next time you die force yourself to take a 20 minute break from whatever you're doing. If you really want to be hardcore, delete a random piece of gear. This is totally doable by an individual player and no one can stop you from imposing your very own death penalty in the game. Why not do it yourself if you love this idea so much? It is fully within your power to do.


2. Grouping Must be Encouraged and Soloing Must be Discouraged.

So stop soloing. Only do stuff in group dungeons. Problem solved.

3. Stop the Hero Crap ...

You completely have the ability to level exclusively through dungeons and grinding mobs. Do it if you love that idea so much.

4. Let Players Form their Own Memories and Make their Own Stories

Are you so devoid of imagination that you can't just ignore that a story happened? Every time I level an alt I pretty much ignore every last part of the story and just move as fast as I can from quest to quest. I really don't care if that last NPC said that I didn't kill that stupid escort NPC, in the story i made for my character in my head, he totally shanked that guy and took his money. I mean seriously, if you can't even override the game story with your own made up storylines, you probably won't be making particularly interesting or imaginative stories on your own.

5. Quests Should Be Rare and Special
Don't like quests? Don't quest. Done and done!

8. No Easy Travel
Don't use your mount if you dont have to. There you go, hard travel.

ANy player who wants these changes can totally play like this if they want. I don't understand why you aren't just doing it if you think itll increase your game play so much.

sorry to say that, but that is by far the most unproductive post i've read in this thread so far ....
you could have also said: "go play another game" ... wouldn't have been any different.

[Normie]

you haven't seen the 1,000 threads about how LFR is killing the game? and the game is so boring?


I even agree with that, there is NO point in even trying to do lfr unless you plan on moving up to normal / hard modes.

The conclusion I draw from the complaints on MMO-C and the Blizzard forums is:

There is a small percentage of players who like to complain.

I think that's the only conclusion you can draw without access to actual data.

- - - Updated - - -

sorry to say that, but that is by far the most unproductive post i've read in this thread so far ....
you could have also said: "go play another game" ... wouldn't have been any different.

These threads are all about how someone wants everyone else to play the game, as if forcing your personal distorted vision on other players is going to make anyone's gaming experience better.

That's why when someone says "Well if you want to play that way, just play that way" the response is always some sort of deflection, like you just did.

[Daskapital]

sorry to say that, but that is by far the most unproductive post i've read in this thread so far ....
you could have also said: "go play another game" ... wouldn't have been any different.

So what's the problem? You don't want these kind of restrictions for you, you just want them for everyone else?

[ramennoodleking]

You can do that now. Next time you die force yourself to take a 20 minute break from whatever you're doing. If you really want to be hardcore, delete a random piece of gear. This is totally doable by an individual player and no one can stop you from imposing your very own death penalty in the game. Why not do it yourself if you love this idea so much? It is fully within your power to do.


2. Grouping Must be Encouraged and Soloing Must be Discouraged.

So stop soloing. Only do stuff in group dungeons. Problem solved.

3. Stop the Hero Crap ...

You completely have the ability to level exclusively through dungeons and grinding mobs. Do it if you love that idea so much.

4. Let Players Form their Own Memories and Make their Own Stories

Are you so devoid of imagination that you can't just ignore that a story happened? Every time I level an alt I pretty much ignore every last part of the story and just move as fast as I can from quest to quest. I really don't care if that last NPC said that I didn't kill that stupid escort NPC, in the story i made for my character in my head, he totally shanked that guy and took his money. I mean seriously, if you can't even override the game story with your own made up storylines, you probably won't be making particularly interesting or imaginative stories on your own.

5. Quests Should Be Rare and Special
Don't like quests? Don't quest. Done and done!

8. No Easy Travel
Don't use your mount if you dont have to. There you go, hard travel.

ANy player who wants these changes can totally play like this if they want. I don't understand why you aren't just doing it if you think itll increase your game play so much.

I wasn't being serious.

[nih]

Entitlement is a funny thing and it goes both ways (like this original post states) and you have to balance both sides of the entitled graph.

Entitlement: (dictionary)

1. the act of entitling.
2. the state of being entitled.
3. the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation.

So let me branch that out with:

LFR = welfare

Heroics = The 1%

Loose analogy but it makes sense. Blizzard has gotten away from the middle class. The majority of the content should be made for the middle class. Question is, do we want the welfare recipients to remain on welfare or do we want them to get out of "class" so to speak. It (welfare) should be an assistance tool geared to get out of the welfare system and into the middle class.

If Blizzard could make 5 raids, one should be geared for the welfare class, one for the top 1% and the 3 left only should be the middle class. Both the welfare and middle class both have the opportunity and a clear path to be able to get to the 1%. it's the American dream right?

Tiered raiding could be one accomplishment. The game should not be sinking more and more to social assistance more and more each expansion. Also...people on welfare tend to not feel too good about themselves and of course there is abuse of the system, where people intend to stay on it forever and suck away the tax payers dollars.

Basically, yet another "people who are casual when compare to me are idiots, people who are hardcore compared to me are losers, why can't blizzard cater cater exclusively to me?" thread. Nothing to see here.

[Nobleshield]

The thing is, content needs to be equal. That means solo content needs to be the same as small group needs to be the same as large group. There needs to be options for all playstyles that achieve the same goal, so the only question becomes HOW you want to achieve it. Don't like groups? Go the solo route. Like groups with close friends? Small group play is for you. Like big groups taking on huge bosses? The large group content is your paradise. The issue now and in EQ-style MMOs is you have Large Group > Small Group > Solo, so it's an upward curve instead of three parallel lines, which means that people can't play the way they want to.

As an aside that's one thing from Wildstar that I'm genuinely curious about. They've said that they plan to have a solo endgame, and a group endgame, and a raid endgame so that everyone gets the endgame they want, and there shouldn't be the "raid or die" mentality in the EQ-generation of games where you feel the need to raid to get the best gear. It will be interesting to see if they can actually pull that off.

[Vulcanasm]

This does tie in directly to WoW - Blizzard's direction - and MMO's. I thought it was a great read.

Article here: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/everq...e-again/#50471

Article was written by an idiot. "Quests should be rare and special"? That's the stupidest thing I've read about video games in at least 10 years.

The only point of light in this imbecile's pro-corpse-run diatribe is the idea that player effects on the world should be meaningful. Feeling like you're in an interactive movie is something that cheapens MMORPGs, particularly games like World of Warcraft. No one likes a rail-rider.

The rest of his article is the absolute antithesis of good game design.

[Softbottom]

I can't wait until EQN comes out. Everquest is still my favorite game. I hope this is basically a graphically enhanced version of EQ original without mercs. I will rejoice lol

[Grogo]

Basically, yet another "people who are casual when compare to me are idiots, people who are hardcore compared to me are losers, why can't blizzard cater cater exclusively to me?" thread. Nothing to see here.

You mean nothing you can add, you did not read the original post or much of this thread.

[Ronduwil]

You couldn't be any further from the truth. The last 'epic' storyline I was involved in had a guy rising up from the common folks to become a local hero of a city, because by some feat of luck and dedication the guy managed to kill a very hard to find and very strong enemy in the area.... It was RL brother against RL brother and some truely epic fights and diplomacy and bribery went on during this rebelion and during the siege before the actual full on assault on the city.

Feel free to tell me when was the last time you had an epic storyline or experience like that in WoW.

You can do this kind of stuff in D&D without a monthly subscription. What you're describing is not a MMO. This is like complaining that players don't score enough baskets in football these days. If I wanted this kind of role playing experience I would play paper and pencil RPGs, not computer games.

No. I'm just arguing against the misconceptions that people have about non-casual MMOs. And in comparison WoW is ... a very cheap experience for people who simply don't know any better. There is nothing wrong with the idea of casual game design and that some people only have a little bit of time every day and that they'd like to enjoy that time in the quickest most casual way possible. But it's just not what I'd personally call quality, in comparison it just gives cheap and shallow MMO experiences.

Or for people whose RL friends have already moved on to bigger and better diversions. Just because you enjoy one activity over another doesn't make the other activity lower in quality. It just means you don't like it as much. I don't like hardcore raiding, but I would never make the ridiculous claim that raid bosses are low in quality.

[Xeraxis]

You mean nothing you can add, you did not read the original post or much of this thread.

The problem is you didn't see what came before WoW. WoW was made to answer all the issues brought up in the OP. You can't change WoW into what it replaced.

[Littleraven]

dont care if the rest of the lost is good. i stopped reading after number 1. in a game like WoW where you are almost guaranteed to die quite a bit. if they added any major penalty for death, they would lose most of their subs. i like games where im not punished for dying. i mean, im not saying that there shouldnt be danger (there should) btu dont take it out on me if i happen to die a bunch.

i used to hate that about diablo 1 and 2. in diablo 1 when you died, you dropped all your gear. that was stupid imo. i remember playing with a friend once and we both died on one of the bottom floors of the cathedral. we literally quit the game after that even though we had played for months up to that point.

before i ramble on too long. no, we dont need big penalties for death.

[Normie]

The rest of his article is the absolute antithesis of good game design.

I suspect about half of it was copied/paraphrased from some PR/whitepaper/email sent to the "author" by Sony Online.

[Dabrix32]

Just reading some of these responses and its hilarious. How did all of you play older MMOs like Ultima Online where if you died you lost all of your gear? Or Everquest where gaining EXP revolved around grouping with other people rather than being soloing. Where getting groups was based on your skill rather than some stupid LFG tool. Where having gear meant you played the game and actually earned it and didnt get carried through LFR and did a bunch of daily quests for wellfare epics.