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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    No, which is why you have accessible leveling, 5-mans and LFR. In a sandbox game, what do you have besides gathering and maybe some crafting?


    No, but they provide a strong deterrent. Which is something you want to avoid. That is why, even in EvE, you have sec levels.
    ...

    The original topic was about emergent gameplay. Let players "direct the plot".

    You can have that without impacting the solo player much as long as you provide things for him to do. Those who want the "drama", competition, ... etc., they can go ahead and have their "clan wars". Those who don't can, as you mentioned, do 5-mans, LFR, level alts, ... etc.

    The problem with WoW is players have next to no control over how things play out - apart from clear raid, don't clear raid.

  2. #262
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Were the 5 million the hardcore players? Because as far as I know hardcore content is alive and well. Consider 8+ heroic raid bosses every three months versus 0 five mans in 9 months. Who's leaving again and why?
    i'm not sure how the changes made up to this day are catering to the hardcore players. My comment was aimed at the idea that the game has become too casual. So casual that even the casuals are leaving.

    There should be a middle ground.
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  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satus View Post
    3. Stop the Hero Crap
    I think at this point the MMO community is really sick and tired of being spoon fed false praise and constantly told we are HEROES. It’s insulting to our intelligence. EQ Next devs need to focus on the we instead of the me. WoW style quests are a big part of the problem here as they continually force feed players the hero self-esteem mantra. People already get enough bogus self-esteem from parents, teachers and politicians. Telling players they are special breeds self-centered players instead of community-centered players. True heroism is its own reward and a real hero doesn’t require a Flaming Sword of Doom for killing 10 rats.

    This point right here, and several others that follow, is ultimately the core of his argument. Its also a horribly flawed core that doesn't last, we'll talk about the real reasons why in a fiew points. For now just read what he is saying and note that his only use of the term "we" or "our" is only when he is praising his own intelligence, projecting his view on everyone, or saying that they need to do what he wants for everyone. THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT LATER.

    4. Let Players Form their Own Memories and Make their Own Stories
    With WoW, the story became the focal point. The quest designers and storytellers dictated how players should act. Players were herded into an episodic narrative that has no deviation and only one outcome. Players became puppets that blindly went from golden question mark to golden question mark doing the bidding of the quest designer.
    Force feeding players stories and that are not their own and instead driving them into the box of contrived narratives is a recipe for disaster and erodes the cooperative spirit which is the bedrock of creating a good community. This is what Blizzard has been doing for years and they have the worst player community in MMO history to show for it.


    I can think of about 4 quests that WoW has spoon-fed me story from that I remember really fondly, he has a point that many people don't want an episodic narrative. But he then shackles it into a false dilemma by saying that narrative prevents people from forming their own stories and memories. This is objectively wrong. Ask anyone who has played WoW for a while and they will have tons of stories from their experiences that have shaped their vies on the game and made them keep coming back to it. Many of those stories will be of failures and gameplay the devs never intended, and thats OK. I've only ever once seen a MMO that actively interfered with people doing this, and it was, ironically enough, UO. The design philosophy in UO actively prevented you from making many of your own stories because you were in a zero sum game with other players for the things you needed to make your memory. More about zero sum games later. Please note again that he doesn't group himself with any of the "puppets" he is criticizing. This is important.
    Maybe you are reading too much into it.

    The "hero" thing is kind of stupid. I cringe a little every time "hero" shows up in quest text. Do we really need to have a game "flatter" us? And for most part, apart from quest text, we aren't really treated like "heroes". The illusion is incomplete. The insincerity shows.

    Secondly, WoW doesn't give you much choice in what to do. You are herded from one zone to another, from one quest chain to another. There aren't any choices for your character to make. We all grind the same rep, run the same dungeons, level the same bunch of professions in the same predetermined way, ... etc. We are practically on-rails. Can we say, "No. I don't want to do Garrosh's bidding."? Nope, you aren't given an alternative. Don't do the quests you say, sure get blocked out of an entire zone of content ...

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Me and most of my gaming friends would love a decent MMO like that again, we're really tired of the theme park MMOs.

    The problem with other MMOs like this failing wasn't because the concept was bad, or people didn't enjoy it, it's just that usually MMOs designed like this have low production values and very little polish so playing them is like scratching your eyes with a rusty spoon. But really, nearly every MMO that released since they existed, except for WoW, has been low production value.

    The only first really polished MMO that is going to be released again is Wildstar...
    Just curious but what 'hardcore' MMOs have you played? The reason you give for their demise gives the impression you've never played anything other than WoW.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    'hardcore' ? I'm not sure what you mean with that... compared to WoW almost every prior MMO was hardcore.

    But the game I most fondly remember was LineAge II ... It gave much more sense of a community than WoW ever did... and it pretty much is close to what the OP described. Dungeons weren't instanced, but were like huge battlefields where multiple guilds tried to fight their ways through the enemy (pve) army, to reach the bosses. That was truely epic and gave a real sense of some war going on between your faction and some enemy faction.

    Imagine if Icecrown Citadel hadn't been instanced, but was a world zone where you had to fight through the Scourge army to reach the bosses. Many raidgroups perished and died, others stormed through the frontlines victoriously and ended up slaying raidbosses with half the server staring at them in awe from a far and a safe distance. Because when this happened hundreds of guilds usually had been trying for weeks already to try and get through the armies of enemies (and gearing up from the materials those dropped).
    It is honestly like you never played an MMO prior to WoW. I played EQ since launch and I can tell you that not being the first guild to a non-instanced raid sucks. If you expect players to just sit and watch another guild do ICC while you are blocked from it continues to prove you were never there to witness what it was like prior to instancing. Hell I also find it hilarious you think Wildstar is going to be so great when it's pretty much just WoW with housing and a Ratchet and Clank coat of paint slapped on.
    Last edited by Xeraxis; 2013-08-01 at 09:52 PM.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Imagine if Icecrown Citadel hadn't been instanced, but was a world zone where you had to fight through the Scourge army to reach the bosses. Many raidgroups perished and died, others stormed through the frontlines victoriously and ended up slaying raidbosses with half the server staring at them in awe from a far and a safe distance. Because when this happened hundreds of guilds usually had been trying for weeks already to try and get through the armies of enemies (and gearing up from the materials those dropped).
    So the rest of us get to sit and watch as the top guild on our server does the raid and kills the boss while we clear the path for them through some mooks like henchmen? Yeah, no thanks. I don't know anyone who would find playing second fiddle fun. I like the idea of being a hero; one of the best things about Rift was the idea that you WEREN'T some peasant who aspired to be a hero, you WERE a hero. Either you ended the civil war (Guardian; one of the first NPCs you talk to even says something like "I've heard stories about you all my life") or you are the hope of the future (Defiant) who has to save the world. I'll take that any day over being some nobody farmboy.

    People need to get rid of this "stand in awe at the top raiders" mentality.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-08-01 at 09:54 PM.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    i'm not sure how the changes made up to this day are catering to the hardcore players. My comment was aimed at the idea that the game has become too casual. So casual that even the casuals are leaving.

    There should be a middle ground.
    Maybe because I have yet to meet a casual player who stated that they preferred being able to faceroll their way through a 25-man raid over having a wide array of moderately challenging 5-man raids. The misconception is that LFR caters to casuals. It really doesn't. No casual ever wrote Blizzard asking:
    Please do away with 5-man content that my friends and I can knock out in 30-45 minutes and replace it with a 25-man raid that I never wanted to do. While you're at it, set it up so that my 4 friends and I are forced to group with 20 people, many of whom will complain about being 'forced' to 'carry' the others, some of whom will go AFK to prove a point, and some of whom will be experiencing this content for the first time and will therefore drop dead about 20 seconds into each boss fight, thereby expanding every 25-minute LFR run to 90 minutes. Oh, yeah. While you're at it please give me a flat 15% loot drop rate that is effectively gimped to 5% once I've collected or superseded the 2/3 useful items that drop from a given boss. That's what I've been dreaming of!
    In reality LFR is a consolation prize that was nonchalantly dumped on casual players so that they can continue to focus on putting out new heroic raids for hardcore guilds every three months without having to "waste" time creating new heroic 5-mans for the casuals. I agree that there should be a middle ground. The choices shouldn't be:
    • Solo
    • Run 20-minute 3-mans that don't even require healers or tanks
    • Play with 9-24 other people even though you really only wanted to play with 3 or 4 of your friends
    Unfortunately those are the options today's casual player is given.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-08-01 at 10:05 PM.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    First of all. I didn't say anything about Wildstar except that it's the first really polished MMO since WoW, so keep your judgemental "hating every game that isn't from Blizzard"-attitude for someone else, thanks.

    Secondly, you're dead wrong. There were many many guilds that got great experiences from those non-instanced raids on every realm, some non-instanced raids were even developped so that you needed multiple guilds to work together to simultaneously get through the raidzone to begin with.

    Thirdly. I don't care about MMOs that cater to the lowest common denominator. I want quality. I don't care if it a few thousands or a few hundred thousand subscribers, some of the best online MMOs I play currently only have a few hundred members and have more content, activity and more community drive than WoW. So really... WoW is just like fast-food, not quality for more dedicated MMO players, in my PERSONAL experience.
    That's so odd I wasn't aware there were MMOs with only a few hundred players. Makes the first M kinda pointless doesn't it? I also have to be amazed at these developers pumping out more content than Blizzard with only a couple hundred players providing them with funds.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    No. People need to get rid of the entitlement. A world in which everyone has to be the hero is just pointless and childish in my eyes. You can keep playing your fake-ass multi-million MMO game where everyone gets rewarded with legendaries and hero-titles for sneezing and farting.
    So you're saying video games are pointless and childish. If you want to experience a world in which heroism is earned and not granted, then shut off your computer and step outside. Quit expecting a form of entertainment that has always been intended as an escape from reality to provide you with the same level of realism as you get in day-to-day life.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post

    No. People need to get rid of the entitlement. A world in which everyone has to be the hero is just pointless and childish in my eyes. You can keep playing your fake-ass multi-million MMO game where everyone gets rewarded with legendaries and hero-titles for sneezing and farting.

    I'll stick to what I consider quality instead.
    Cool. So we'll go on playing casual-friendly WoW and you stick to your exclusive game that you prefer.

    Now why exactly are you on the WoW forums posting about changing a game you dislike and don't play?

  11. #271
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    No. People need to get rid of the entitlement. A world in which everyone has to be the hero is just pointless and childish in my eyes. You can keep playing your fake-ass multi-million MMO game where everyone gets rewarded with legendaries and hero-titles for sneezing and farting.

    I'll stick to what I consider quality instead.
    The only people with entitlement are the so called "top raiders" who insist the game development be catered to them which isn't even true of the actual top raiders but only fake hardcores who come on forums with HUGE entitlement mentalities. The bottom end just simple leaves the game if it doesn't and doesn't whine or go on forums complaining. I hope wildstar is everything you ask for, I doubt it sincerely.

    Slightly off topic though I fucking LOVE the use of the word entitlement in these conversations. It is the CLASSIC use of projection, throwing your hangups on other people and claiming they are suffering from whatever you actually are. Bad casuals are entitled because they want the game they want but us hardcore awesome dudes aren't because well we want the same thing but we're good? AMAZING I love it. I mean lets say wildstar gets amazingly succesful, makes millions and then has this huge audience to cater to that doesn't revolve around the needs of Rochana and his or her spiritual brothers and sisters who share the same desires and wants from the game. Does that mean that mass of people are entitled? Or that the developer just played to it's crowd? It's far more apt to call YOU the entitled minority I think.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-08-01 at 10:15 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    In comparison WoW really isn't an MMO. When a game is more community driven you'll have much more meaningful social interactions and thus there'll be more interaction between multiple players. How can you call WoW an mmo when the most people you can have meaningful interactions with is 24 at most and even then the interaction is questionable, you're just shooting fireballs at the same target and don't really depend on others for anything.

    Is solitaire an MMO because a few million people are playing it simultaneously every day? No. In that sense WoW isn't an MMO either, in my opinion.
    My opinion can be that the moon is made of chocolate, it however doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    How can you call WoW an mmo when the most people you can have meaningful interactions with is 24 at most and even then the interaction is questionable, you're just shooting fireballs at the same target and don't really depend on others for anything.
    If the tanks aren't tanking properly and the healers aren't healing you're going to wipe. Even in LFR. Players depend on each other for just about everything except levelling and dailies.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    So the rest of us get to sit and watch as the top guild on our server does the raid and kills the boss while we clear the path for them through some mooks like henchmen?
    Actually that would be awesome. A conjoint effort where top players do the hardest stuff and others do their part.

  15. #275
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    I'm not going to play Wildstar. I'm just in the closed beta and it's a very polished MMO, but it's too theme park for me too. I tend to try out every single MMO that gets released, or rather, I get dragged there by friends to play it together.
    Well that's good to hear I was gonna give it a shot. Same for ESO. Thing about new mmos is that it's hard to meet new people you like and that kinda makes the experience sour. I know people on wow I like but it's hard to move over to another game unless they come along. Maybe i'll just stick to battlefield or gta.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Actually that would be awesome. A conjoint effort where top players do the hardest stuff and others do their part.
    No thanks. I am no ones peasant. The "top players" aren't knights and this isn't a monarchy.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    F
    No. People need to get rid of the entitlement. A world in which everyone has to be the hero is just pointless and childish in my eyes. You can keep playing your fake-ass multi-million MMO game where everyone gets rewarded with legendaries and hero-titles for sneezing and farting.

    I'll stick to what I consider quality instead.
    Now, that was, uhm ... let's call it fiercly passionate. The truly funny thing will be seing you bitch and fume because you won't be getting your "quality" from any game any soon.

    Also, your use of the term entitlement really makes you look childish yourself. It's a silly idea that never held any water. Nobody feels "entitled" to anything, time to get that fantasy out of your system. It's a product of thinking according to one's nature.

    Normal people don't think in such dimensions about gaming. It's a concept that originates solely from the minds of the so-called "hardcore" gamers, because in their world there is such a thing as bragging rights over virtual accomplishments. Also, isn't it ironic that the term "entitlement" gets tossed around by the people who have the worst case of an entitlement complex themselves. Obviously you are the type of person who feels that you're having something taken away from you.

    Edit: Just realized that Glorious Leader basically pointed out the same thing in other words.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2013-08-01 at 10:28 PM.

  17. #277
    Deleted
    You lost me at No Instancing. Well, no. You lost me somewhere before that, but the fact you think any sort of cohesive group experience can happen without amounts of community-segregation seems naive to put it nicely. How would challenging content work? Entire realm shows up for the set spawn of the big bad boss? GL making that anything but Oondasta mk2. See: All of the GW2 '"World Bosses'' for why that alone would sink the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    My opinion can be that the moon is made of chocolate, it however doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.
    I like you.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    You couldn't be any further from the truth. The last 'epic' storyline I was involved in had a guy rising up from the common folks to become a local hero of a city, because by some feat of luck and dedication the guy managed to kill a very hard to find and very strong enemy in the area. The guy became pretty strong and respected in his city, and cleverly kept trying to use his acquired moment of fame in his advantage, slowly climbing up in the official ranks of the city and it's military. Funnily enough his (RL) brother had been doing the same thing all along but through more conventional means had worked himself up to praetor in the city (something between a judge and a sergeant). At one point the new 'hero' tried to organize a rebellion to overthrow the existing government and crown himself king of the city, he got some northern mercenaries (from a handful of other nothern viking guilds) together to come and lay siege to the city. His brother in the chaos by the council of the city was appointed as general to try and quell the rebellion. There was a huge battle with siegetowers and people trying to get in through secret tunnels, but in the end the new hero's rebellion failed. And he got captured and roasted alive in a copper bosk in the middle of the city with about a bit more than a hundred people around him looking at the execution. It was RL brother against RL brother and some truely epic fights and diplomacy and bribery went on during this rebelion and during the siege before the actual full on assault on the city.

    Feel free to tell me when was the last time you had an epic storyline or experience like that in WoW.
    You won't find massive space battles where tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment is lost in a gigantic multi-hour battle that culminated from a huge political conflict in outer space in WoW, either. I'm glad people who play EVE(and whatever game you're describing) are enjoying their game. I don't go to the EVE forums and trash their game for having elements I dislike. Still not sure why you're here on a forum for a game you dislike and don't play arguing about how bad you feel the game is.

    You really should be on the forums of whatever game you play discussing with other players of the game how awesome it is instead of complaining on the WoW forums.
    Last edited by SamR; 2013-08-01 at 10:52 PM.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    People need to get rid of this "stand in awe at the top raiders" mentality.
    Even better, people need to get rid of this 'raiding is the only thing that matters' mentality.

    WoW doesn't ever need to subscribe to the points laid out in that article. It never has subscribed to them to begin with. It's too established at this point. This game also breeds a certain level of expectation from it's playerbase that will continually move it farther away from any such things (look how many players want to have an option to skip leveling entirely, for example, or any number of other requests that would have been laughed off the forums back in vanilla)

    And that's all fine, as long as it works for this game. May it live long and prosper doing what it does. I'm certainly looking forward to a new fantasy-setting game that brought all the listed features back, and then some. Nearly every other game out there to my knowledge that has this sort of gameplay is either extremely old from a graphical viewpoint, or has some other features that do nothing to attract and maintain players (Aventurine's historically awful support of Darkfall, EO being a genre that many don't find appealing, etc)

    How many folks play it doesn't really matter, 'enough' people would gravitate to it to keep the lights on.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    This does tie in directly to WoW - Blizzard's direction - and MMO's. I thought it was a great read.

    Article here: http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/everq...e-again/#50471

    Think long-term, not short-term.
    Each to his own I guess. I certainly will not play it.

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