View Poll Results: Rend or Colossus Smash?

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  • Rend is better, get rid of Colossus Smash!

    16 13.11%
  • Colossus Smash is the way - burst is best!

    47 38.52%
  • Let's see both, it worked in Cataclysm!

    42 34.43%
  • Neither; we want something new!

    17 13.93%
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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Question Rend or Colossus Smash?

    I needn't belabour this post too much, the question is relatively simple:

    Which would you, as a warrior, prefer to see in the game - Rend or Colossus Smash? The reason this is the either/or combination is because removal of Colossus Smash would mean something would need to replace it, and Rend was an iconic ability before it got cut (and it's been discussed recently).

    Essentially, I felt the loss of Rend quite keenly because I liked it in both Arms and Protection and it gave an extra level of depth to the class as well as a contribution to the skill cap. It's an obvious choice for a rotational ability that applies a passive snare, as well as being a way to keep contributing meaningful damage while being kited and/or controlled. If it was baked back into Taste for Blood, the talent would actually make sense.

    Colossus Smash, on the other hand, is something I hate. It's been a balancing nightmare to the point where it does something different in PvP and PvP, which makes us burst-bots in the former and causes clunky, unwieldy consequences in the latter.

    So, which would you prefer (other options also listed)?

  2. #2
    I like Colossus Smash more.
    I'm not a fan of dots
    Give me big numbers

  3. #3
    Dreadlord
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    So you say it gave more depth to the class to apply a dot then figuring out how to exploit the CS window? Since CS Fury plays much more bursty. And I like that. Fits the concept. Rend was boring to use. Apply when fading, ignore the rest of the time. As a Prot it would be a nuissance to apply a dot, which does not generate immediate aggro.

    So CS all the way.
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  4. #4
    The Patient Leothas's Avatar
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    I think you hit a good point here with the balance argument about collosus smash. Taste for blood did also work better with rend (made some kind of sense)

    I'd rather see an overall damage increase than a short duration burst ability.

    Another way to go would be to have rend as arms and collosus smash as fury.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leothas View Post
    I think you hit a good point here with the balance argument about collosus smash. Taste for blood did also work better with rend (made some kind of sense)

    I'd rather see an overall damage increase than a short duration burst ability.

    Another way to go would be to have rend as arms and collosus smash as fury.

    That is a solution I could live with.
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Rend was basically a passive for arms that required only 1 application per most PvE fights.

    Collosol Smash is a cooldown around which you can either time high bust (Fury, Raging Blows+3x Heroic Strikes), or adds complexity to the rotation (Arms).

    Arms was actually good in terms of rotation until they removed the TfB affecting Heroic Strike.
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  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    So you say it gave more depth to the class to apply a dot then figuring out how to exploit the CS window?
    I'm talking about PvP where, unfortunately, you either fit all your damage into a Colossus Smash window (with cooldowns up) or you forget about pressure - it's not fun. Rend, on the other hand, provides an option where you can keep your damage rolling on a target, or you could forego it for higher burst. There was a choice; there isn't now.

    And as hinted, baking our snare into Rend would work and could finally see us lose Hamstring completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    Since CS Fury plays much more bursty. And I like that. Fits the concept. Rend was boring to use. Apply when fading, ignore the rest of the time. As a Prot it would be a nuissance to apply a dot, which does not generate immediate aggro.

    So CS all the way.
    Yep, perfectly valid to prefer Colossus Smash for reasons you've stated (though Protection saw a great damage increase if it was used properly, and I miss that). I disagree with you, but that's what the poll is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leothas View Post
    I'd rather see an overall damage increase than a short duration burst ability.
    Me, too - the PvP repercussions of Colossus Smash are hard to overstate, given how bad warriors have been since the ability went in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leothas View Post
    Another way to go would be to have rend as arms and collosus smash as fury.
    I could get onboard with that, given that Fury isn't used as a PvP spec very commonly. I'm not sure it'd fit the design intent, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Rend was basically a passive for arms that required only 1 application per most PvE fights.
    That's a little inaccurate. Lambs to the Slaughter only started to affect Rend in the way described midway through Cataclysm (after Firelands, IIRC), whereas it was previously a rotational attack. The rotational attack makes more sense to me, but it was also accompanied by a more interesting Sudden Death mechanic; namely, an Execute proc rather than Colossus Smash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Arms was actually good in terms of rotation until they removed the TfB affecting Heroic Strike.
    You're in an extreme minority with that opinion; that doesn't make it invalid, though. That mechanic was reviled by most players because it led to utterly absurd burst in PvP, and it just wasn't any fun in PvE because the priority queue got ripped to shreds because of it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Yep, perfectly valid to prefer Colossus Smash for reasons you've stated (though Protection saw a great damage increase if it was used properly, and I miss that). I disagree with you, but that's what the poll is for.
    .
    If im not misstaken your quite heavily against tank dps cheesing, such as cloak/meta /sit macros etc, then say you liked having to stance dance (leaving you open for crits) to weave SS into CS, was good and you miss it ?
    I dont miss it, and after a 2nd thought i dont want CS back for prot, would kinda be like another HR glyph.
    Rend was passive for prot afaik ?
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-07-25 at 02:58 PM.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    If im not misstaken your quite heavily against tank dps cheesing, such as cloak/meta /sit macros etc, then say you liked having to stance dance (leaving you open for crits) to weave SS into CS, was good and you miss it ?
    I dont miss it, and after a 2nd thought i dont want CS back for prot, would kinda be like another HR glyph.
    Rend was passive for prot afaik ?
    I'm talking about Rend, not Colossus Smash - I never used Colossus Smash while tanking in Cataclysm, but I did use Rend because it was a substantial DPS increase to do so.

  10. #10
    I want something new. Rend is just a dot at the end of the day and well cs in it's current form is just an as clunky mechanic as having shield wall require actual shields. It doesn't scale in an even remotely interesting way and is among the most unnecessarily punishing design choices left in the game.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I'm talking about Rend, not Colossus Smash - I never used Colossus Smash while tanking in Cataclysm, but I did use Rend because it was a substantial DPS increase to do so.
    Then i misread you, thought it was odd that you wanted such a whore mechanic back

  12. #12
    Cataclysm had both, but if I'd had to choose I'd pick Colossus smash. I get what you are saying in MOP a lot of classes got simplified or abilities removed although the removal of rend wasn't significant because for single target fights you would only have to apply it once. Colossus Smash is a good skill that allows you to burst and has worked out pretty well. in wrath our rotation was pretty simple BT > WW > HS. If we had no colossus smash it would be just like BT > RB whenever available and HS as rage dump. Colossus smash makes things more interesting since our rotation is build around it pretty much and outside a CS window we try to conserve rage as much as possible.

  13. #13
    Wait, what? They took rend out? Wtf? No more rend + thunderclap = rend on all targets? That's really stupid!
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  14. #14
    In MoP they merged Rend with Deepwounds.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    Wait, what? They took rend out? Wtf? No more rend + thunderclap = rend on all targets? That's really stupid!
    yeah they replaced rend with warrior wide deep wounds (on mortal strike thunder clap devastate and bloodthirst.)



    I liked rend cause arms having bleeds made it kinda cool. i loved bleed on crits aswell.

    i honestly dont see why we cant have both but give rend some more interesting design maybe.
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  16. #16
    I sort of missed Rend when they removed it, but it was ultimately just a button you pressed to apply a dot, and warriors already had Deep Wounds.

    I don't know why you'd compare it to CS, that's a totally different ability. If they were to replace something with Rend it would obviously be DW. The only question is, do you want to have to spend a GCD to keep a bleed up in order to "feel" like it's still Rend?

    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    Wait, what? They took rend out? Wtf? No more rend + thunderclap = rend on all targets? That's really stupid!
    Blood and Thunder still exists for Arms and Prot, they just replaced Rend with Deep Wounds. So you save a GCD basically.

  17. #17
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Rend by itself is boring, just a dot to throw up and forget until you refresh it. In Wrath it was had a bit of complexity due to having to stance dance but even that was marginal at best.
    Colossus Smash is good, adds depth, complexity and burst to our rotation. Also don't forget that we see noticeable returns as gear (crit) gets higher, which you do not with Rend.

    That said Colossus Smash has a few noticeable downsides:
    Firstly, it being parried/dodge is REALLY aggravating. There are a number of fights this tier in which bosses move and turn near randomly to cast, etc. I really wish bosses could not dodge/parry while casting (Council, Iron Qon, Twins, Lei Shen, many Durumu strats, all come to mind).
    Failing that, I would LOVE if Colossus Smashes CD reset when it was parry/dodged, similar to Paladins Templar's Verdict (holy power is refunded).

    The second failing is that because all our real damage is rolled into that 6 second window, we do not always benefit as much from increased damage phases as other classes; obviously based on the length and time between +dmg phases. The same goes for target switching. Hold CSmash cooldown too long for an add or +dmg phase and you waste alot of damage.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2013-07-26 at 03:14 AM.

  18. #18
    The Patient
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    Removing CS is possibly the dumbest request i´ve ever seen Fury entirely revoloves around CS and for Arms its the only RNG aspect of the rotation, how boring would both specs be without it? Also it ensures that Warrior Burst has some form of ramp up. Since our 30second burst is already really bad in PvE compared to other classes, they would have to compensate for it by giving us another ridiculous 3 min cooldown or so...But this would be completely counterproductive in PvP again, since there is already alot of damage tied to cooldowns...

    What you´re asking for is another shoot and forget ability because Colossus Smash requires short term planning and can be countered. But if you really like to have that, you should maybe roll Unholy DK, summon Gargoyle and go afk. No doubt that is fun aswell, but its not the flavor of the Warrior Class, that has always been about cooldown timings and sticking to a target...

  19. #19
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Either put Rend back as ADDITIONAL DPS along with how powerful Deep Wounds is. Or remove both(Rend and CS) and add something new.
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  20. #20
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    From a fury PoV the only reason why I hate CS this expansion is that you can pool two resources for it ( RB and rage) and now that rage is more tight, you barely do anything meaningful outside of CS.

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