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  1. #1
    High Overlord Cantofish's Avatar
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    Question regarding Enhance t16 2set & UF

    Hey guys, been awhile.

    Anyways I've been looking through files and such and I haven't really done any PTR testing this time around due to time constraints, however,

    Does the t16 Enhance 2 set proc UF benefits? Will it give the lightning bolt debuff/Static Shock through melee hits? Been trying to craft around if it'll make UF more viable than PE regardless of the RPPM changes that will be somewhat gutting our burst.


    Thanks in advance

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  2. #2
    Yes enh 2part procs unleashes as if you casted them= benefits from and triggers the UF effects.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Cantofish's Avatar
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    Has any testing been done dps wise? I'd assume that severely upscales the value of the 2-set for playing UF then

    Economics, Champion of Ulduar US- Stomrage, US-Zul'jin
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    Dissonance - Stormrage: 14/14H. Recruiting for WOD!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantofish View Post
    Has any testing been done dps wise? I'd assume that severely upscales the value of the 2-set for playing UF then
    It does, but it doesn't change how strong the new CDR trinket is with Fire Elemental, which upscales PE even more than the 2pc does for UF, from what I can see
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    It does, but it doesn't change how strong the new CDR trinket is with Fire Elemental, which upscales PE even more than the 2pc does for UF, from what I can see
    That trinket doesn't give you more PE damage, it gives you the chance to get more uptime, depending on fight length.

    0-3.6 Trinket has no effect on FE uptime
    3.6-5.0 Trinket give extra FE uptime, so it favors PE the more you get over 4 minutes fight
    5.0-6.0 Trinket starts losing value until it has no benefit at all after 6.0 minutes
    6.0-7.3 Trinket has no effect on FE uptime
    7.3-10. Trinket gives extra FE uptime (but doesn't boost your dps as much as in the 3.6-5.0 time window)
    10-11 Trinket loses value once again

    So far, it just depends on fight length. Many progress fights take 6-7 minutes. That's the time window where this trinket has no effect on FE, thus having no buff to FE, thus not making PE in any form necessary. With all the RPPM changes, i wouldn't be surprised to see PE becoming the loser without extra uptime via trinket.
    Last edited by Klatar; 2013-08-11 at 05:53 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    That trinket doesn't give you more PE damage, it gives you the chance to get more uptime, depending on fight length.

    0-3.6 Trinket has no effect on FE uptime
    3.6-5.0 Trinket give extra FE uptime, so it favors PE the more you get over 4 minutes fight
    5.0-6.0 Trinket starts losing value until it has no benefit at all after 6.0 minutes
    6.0-7.3 Trinket has no effect on FE uptime
    7.3-10. Trinket gives extra FE uptime (but doesn't boost your dps as much as in the 3.6-5.0 time window)
    10-11 Trinket loses value once again

    So far, it just depends on fight length. Many progress fights take 6-7 minutes. That's the time window where this trinket has no effect on FE, thus having no buff to FE, thus not making PE in any form necessary. With all the RPPM changes, i wouldn't be surprised to see PE becoming the loser without extra uptime via trinket.
    Except more uptime means more damage. average fight lengths in ToT during progress was 6 to 10 minutes, depending on the fight. Also bear in mind that the trinket affects glyphed Fire Elemental, so 0-3.6 can net the highest gains in Fire Elemental, as having it very nearly sync with EM every single time (there's a variance of around 14~ seconds) is an absolutely enormous boost to how strong it is.

    Alternatively, with the CDR trinket and no glyphed fire ele, the actual proc from it which is ICD based lines up with the cooldown of unglyphed fire ele very nicely, assuming a relatively fast proc after the ICD is up.
    Last edited by wordup; 2013-08-11 at 06:44 PM.
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Except more uptime means more damage. average fight lengths in ToT during progress was 6 to 10 minutes, depending on the fight. Also bear in mind that the trinket affects glyphed Fire Elemental, so 0-3.6 can net the highest gains in Fire Elemental, as having it very nearly sync with EM every single time (there's a variance of around 14~ seconds) is an absolutely enormous boost to how strong it is.

    Alternatively, with the CDR trinket and no glyphed fire ele, the actual proc from it which is ICD based lines up with the cooldown of unglyphed fire ele very nicely, assuming a relatively fast proc after the ICD is up.
    You say it yourself, most progress fights took 6-10 minutes. And in a 6-7.3 fight, there's no extra FE uptime caused by the trinket.

    Of course more FE uptime means more damage, but how do you get the idea that i don't know this? As i told you, PE might be best for some fight lengths and UF for others. There's also the point that the multistrike trinket doesn't procc from pet damage, so this trinket on the other side favors UF over PE.

    In the end, as i wanted to tell you, is, that on some fights, UF will be better and on others PE. It is also very likely that we will try to get the cleave trinket for some fights. And without any extra FE uptime, you might even replace the GCD trinket because it's too weak (will have to see how much DPS Ascendance is going to bring).

    But i don't see a clear winner. Neither on trinkets nor on talents nor on glyphs (FE might also have situational use to get a more buffed FE). I see a big loser: EB. It terribly sucks right now for Enhancement. And of course the cleave trinket on single target.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    You say it yourself, most progress fights took 6-10 minutes. And in a 6-7.3 fight, there's no extra FE uptime caused by the trinket.

    Of course more FE uptime means more damage, but how do you get the idea that i don't know this? As i told you, PE might be best for some fight lengths and UF for others. There's also the point that the multistrike trinket doesn't procc from pet damage, so this trinket on the other side favors UF over PE.

    In the end, as i wanted to tell you, is, that on some fights, UF will be better and on others PE. It is also very likely that we will try to get the cleave trinket for some fights. And without any extra FE uptime, you might even replace the GCD trinket because it's too weak (will have to see how much DPS Ascendance is going to bring).

    But i don't see a clear winner. Neither on trinkets nor on talents nor on glyphs (FE might also have situational use to get a more buffed FE). I see a big loser: EB. It terribly sucks right now for Enhancement. And of course the cleave trinket on single target.
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that you can glyph FE and between the two cooldown sets reduce those gaps in benefit to almost nothing.

    Also the prime source of any trinket balance info is probably coming out of SimulationCraft which uses a random fight duration between 6 and 9 minutes. A significant portion of those simulations do get zero value out of the cooldown reduction on FE, and yet on average it's still simming out to be the best trinket (or at least good enough for some to call it BiS, I don't play Enh so I wouldn't know).

    Of course you're not going to use the trinket on some fights with a very specific duration, but that doesn't mean it isn't incredibly good on any other fight where it does get significant benefit, which is most of them.

    On top of that, the cooldown coming up sooner does offer DPS benefit even if you cannot get additional uses merely through higher ability to synchronize with procs or cooldowns.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-08-11 at 08:21 PM.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    You say it yourself, most progress fights took 6-10 minutes. And in a 6-7.3 fight, there's no extra FE uptime caused by the trinket.

    Of course more FE uptime means more damage, but how do you get the idea that i don't know this? As i told you, PE might be best for some fight lengths and UF for others. There's also the point that the multistrike trinket doesn't procc from pet damage, so this trinket on the other side favors UF over PE.

    In the end, as i wanted to tell you, is, that on some fights, UF will be better and on others PE. It is also very likely that we will try to get the cleave trinket for some fights. And without any extra FE uptime, you might even replace the GCD trinket because it's too weak (will have to see how much DPS Ascendance is going to bring).

    But i don't see a clear winner. Neither on trinkets nor on talents nor on glyphs (FE might also have situational use to get a more buffed FE). I see a big loser: EB. It terribly sucks right now for Enhancement. And of course the cleave trinket on single target.
    I have bolded what I think you answered yourself, as you need to word yourself much better if you want to be clear in the future;
    That trinket doesn't give you more PE damage, it gives you the chance to get more uptime, depending on fight length.
    On the subject of EB, I disagree again. The 2set is a buff to EB, because you are getting a higher likelihood of getting UF on EB as well as Flame Shock. EB is also hitting insanely hard on the PTR (we're talking 700k+) in SoO gear, plus being affected by SS crit is pretty fantasitc.

    The multistrike trinket from testing is quite weak, cleave trinket is incredibly weak, and the reverse renataki's is questionable at best. The cleave trinket is incredibly unreliable, and in a tier where you want your AoE on demand, that is not good. Multistrike procs quite rarely but when it does again the damage is quite low. I highly doubt it will be the deciding factor on last tier talents.

    Unless PE has a flat numbers nerf, it is unlikely that UF will be better than it even on some fights. A band-aid fix of the 2pc will not make it cover the gulf of damage difference that is present, and exacerbated by the CDR trinket (as I said, it makes it sync with both the proc and EM every CD with glyph), ESPECIALLY given that said 2pc is completely random as to which unleash it procs. For UF, only wind is a good random proc, and that will happen on average 33% of the time (yes, it still procs frostbrand even if not imbued) and it procs singular unleashes, not both.
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    The multistrike trinket from testing is quite weak, cleave trinket is incredibly weak, and the reverse renataki's is questionable at best. The cleave trinket is incredibly unreliable, and in a tier where you want your AoE on demand, that is not good. Multistrike procs quite rarely but when it does again the damage is quite low. I highly doubt it will be the deciding factor on last tier talents.
    What the hell? All trinkets suck? Really?

    I wonder what you expect. Multistrike is 4% damage + Agi procc. Rentakki is a quite "normal" trinket with mastery + another different agi procc. The cleave trinket is questionable, let's see if it goes live like that. But multistrike and Rentakki are where trinkets are supposed to be. The CDR trinket is the one broken. Replacing it with an Agi Amplify trinket is the way to go for us.

    Unless PE has a flat numbers nerf, it is unlikely that UF will be better than it even on some fights. A band-aid fix of the 2pc will not make it cover the gulf of damage difference that is present, and exacerbated by the CDR trinket (as I said, it makes it sync with both the proc and EM every CD with glyph), ESPECIALLY given that said 2pc is completely random as to which unleash it procs. For UF, only wind is a good random proc, and that will happen on average 33% of the time (yes, it still procs frostbrand even if not imbued) and it procs singular unleashes, not both.
    Honestly, sims already showed UF + EM ahead of PE with 2p. And you still didn't tell me anything new. If the CDR trinket is so opverpowered, then they nerf it. We are still weeks before 5.4 going live so it's pretty easy. What if they remove FE from that trinket?

    And finally: if you don't get any additional FE uptime (and possibly even no additional Ascendance), why should i pick the trinket and still go PE?

    I suspect, msot of us would pick another trinket and go UF.

    I still tink that the CDR trinket won't go live like that. The potential to be OP on one fight length and very weak on another is just crazily stupid. And yes, there are a lot of cases where the CDR trinket currently sucks. There also times where this trinket is a 20% dps gain for sure. How to balance this against each other, is close to impossible.
    Last edited by Klatar; 2013-08-11 at 10:22 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    I see a big loser: EB. It terribly sucks right now for Enhancement.
    I don't think it's fair to say that EB sucks for enhancement. If the patch went live today and you shifted your gear around to favor agility/mastery instead of haste, then all of our talents would be incredibly close, now (even echo isn't that bad, due to the RPPM nerf):

    http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_mop_1056.html

    T16 will introduce gear that will disrupt the balance (cloak gives another haste-scaling proc, putting echo behind AS/EM again, and the CDR trinket + 2p set bonus puts PE/UF above EB again), but we still haven't experienced the "tuning pass," so there's still time for those problems to get solved.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2013-08-12 at 12:57 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    What the hell? All trinkets suck? Really?
    Quite literally? Yes. The Multistrike trinket is weak and the cleave trinket is even weaker. Even less though, your entire post answered nothing as to what I said. Multistrike is bad if you're assuming that will be the reason not to take PE, because it won't. Reverse renataki's is not normal, because the more attacks you do at lower damage, the worse it is; and we do a WHOLE LOT of quick medium attacks instead of a few high damage attacks. I'm more than anything worried that juju or renataki's will remain strongest looking at some of the trinkets.

    Sims however didn't show UF and EM above PE with the 2pc, as the above poster has shown. In fact, EM UF is the lowest of all the possible choices currently, and a random chance at new unleash winds is not going to skew it to such an extreme amount when it has no interaction with the trinket that is benefitting PE so much. SoO has a lot of burst phase fights and very few consistent fights, and as such, that will skew PE/EM even further into the limelight. There is however, virtually no fight in which that trinket will not give additional uptime. Even the shortest fight in the whole of ToT right now (a hc Dark Animus zerg, say) is averaging 2:20. With that trinket + fire ele glyph, I get 2 30 sec Fire eles, with 40 sec of EM and 30 sec of BL, vs. 1 60 sec fire ele with 20 sec of EM and 40 sec of BL. PE is going to remain strongest until there is a numbers pass, because it inherently provides more damage, 2pc or otherwise. Citing sims that do not reflect what you state given that the actual numbers are unreliable and incredibly random at best as an answer says a lot, but even moreso, the 2pc + UF is hugely RNG, moreso even than the RNG on EB (which again is simming higher than UF), basically, UF needs a base damage buff to be passable, because currently the talent is, even with the boost of the 2pc, going to unreliable. Unreliability is very, VERY bad as I already stated regarding the cleave trinket. I don't want to have to rely on my 2pc re-proccing unleash wind when I could just take PE and have a controllable burst when I need it.
    Last edited by wordup; 2013-08-12 at 02:48 AM.
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Sims however didn't show UF and EM above PE with the 2pc, as the above poster has shown.
    Those sims don't include the t16 2p bonus, which is very massive for the UF talent.

    Here it is again with t15 4p disabled and t16 2p enabled in its place:

    http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_mop_1057.html

    The CDR trinket obviously swings things back in PE's direction, but yeah.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    I have bolded what I think you answered yourself, as you need to word yourself much better if you want to be clear in the future;

    The multistrike trinket from testing is quite weak, cleave trinket is incredibly weak, and the reverse renataki's is questionable at best. The cleave trinket is incredibly unreliable, and in a tier where you want your AoE on demand, that is not good. Multistrike procs quite rarely but when it does again the damage is quite low. I highly doubt it will be the deciding factor on last tier talents.
    There is one bonus to the multistrike trinket, which is it can proc from any ability as well. At least when I did some testing I saw Multi hitting for 100k from SS or LL (cant remember).

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Reverse renataki's is not normal, because the more attacks you do at lower damage, the worse it is; and we do a WHOLE LOT of quick medium attacks instead of a few high damage attacks.
    That's not how the trinket works anymore. It was only a matter of time really considering how terrible the mechanic was for basically any spec that would even be interested in it.

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102311

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
    Pawkets' Armory
    // Pawkets' Pro Raiders // <Forgotten Aspects>

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    That's not how the trinket works anymore. It was only a matter of time really considering how terrible the mechanic was for basically any spec that would even be interested in it.

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=102311
    Well while it's nice to see they addressed it, It's still going to see some problems just by the duration, if it procs as we use SS or LL, it's going to do very little in terms of damage. The range for that is even higher than Renataki's is currently given we can't even hold things, and with the duration being half, it could potentially leapfrog LL and UE entirely. A shame they didn't just leave it at 20 sec
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  17. #17
    All of the agility procs are 10 seconds now, that includes Rena's, Juju, Haromm's, TED, etc.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    All of the agility procs are 10 seconds now, that includes Rena's, Juju, Haromm's, TED, etc.
    Yeah I saw that last time I logged PTR, really not a good thing given how rarely they will proc now. Nerfing duration AND proc chance seems like a step too far given they seem to cite amount of attacks in the proc window as an advantage of haste, and not the fact that we sacrifice a lot of flat damage to stack said haste, and that numerous haste effects didn't affect proc chance to begin with.
    Enhancement Shaman / Feral Druid

    “All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.”

  19. #19
    They significantly buffed the proc rate of any of the procs that had their duration reduced, even after accounting for the removal of haste scaling the proc rate it's still a noticeable bump.

    Feral Druid Maintainer of SimC // Moderator at Fluid Druid forums
    Pawkets' Armory
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Quite literally? Yes. The Multistrike trinket is weak and the cleave trinket is even weaker. Even less though, your entire post answered nothing as to what I said. Multistrike is bad if you're assuming that will be the reason not to take PE, because it won't. Reverse renataki's is not normal, because the more attacks you do at lower damage, the worse it is; and we do a WHOLE LOT of quick medium attacks instead of a few high damage attacks. I'm more than anything worried that juju or renataki's will remain strongest looking at some of the trinkets.

    Sims however didn't show UF and EM above PE with the 2pc, as the above poster has shown. In fact, EM UF is the lowest of all the possible choices currently, and a random chance at new unleash winds is not going to skew it to such an extreme amount when it has no interaction with the trinket that is benefitting PE so much. SoO has a lot of burst phase fights and very few consistent fights, and as such, that will skew PE/EM even further into the limelight. There is however, virtually no fight in which that trinket will not give additional uptime. Even the shortest fight in the whole of ToT right now (a hc Dark Animus zerg, say) is averaging 2:20. With that trinket + fire ele glyph, I get 2 30 sec Fire eles, with 40 sec of EM and 30 sec of BL, vs. 1 60 sec fire ele with 20 sec of EM and 40 sec of BL. PE is going to remain strongest until there is a numbers pass, because it inherently provides more damage, 2pc or otherwise. Citing sims that do not reflect what you state given that the actual numbers are unreliable and incredibly random at best as an answer says a lot, but even moreso, the 2pc + UF is hugely RNG, moreso even than the RNG on EB (which again is simming higher than UF), basically, UF needs a base damage buff to be passable, because currently the talent is, even with the boost of the 2pc, going to unreliable. Unreliability is very, VERY bad as I already stated regarding the cleave trinket. I don't want to have to rely on my 2pc re-proccing unleash wind when I could just take PE and have a controllable burst when I need it.
    You arent up to date. Multi strike trinket has an agi procc and procc chance got doubled. It is really nice except pets Don't count. Rentakki diminishes at a fixed rate for weeks now and cleave trinket has an agi procc. Cleave could work on 3target fights.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zandervont View Post
    There is one bonus to the multistrike trinket, which is it can proc from any ability as well. At least when I did some testing I saw Multi hitting for 100k from SS or LL (cant remember).
    If your SB crits for 900k damage multi strike gives you 300k extra damage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    Yeah I saw that last time I logged PTR, really not a good thing given how rarely they will proc now. Nerfing duration AND proc chance seems like a step too far given they seem to cite amount of attacks in the proc window as an advantage of haste, and not the fact that we sacrifice a lot of flat damage to stack said haste, and that numerous haste effects didn't affect proc chance to begin with.
    For many speccs procc chance got clearly buffed because they had only 5k haste. We have 25-30k haste + EM. That is why some speccs didnt lose a lot and enhancers 15% das

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