View Poll Results: Should Ghostcrawler be replaced as Lead Systems Designer?

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  • Yes

    523 22.68%
  • No

    1,783 77.32%
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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    But he's not at the top making all decisions. How that can be so fucking hard to understand?

    Next time you're in the login screen click the "credits" link. Greg Street's name is 13th from the top, not first or second. He's on second or third tier of the chain of command in WoW production, not the guy at the top.
    I do not need to check the credits, he puts himself out front and is the best know face of the game. Is all the things wrong he's fault? Is he in charge? Of course not but he is the face of the game and therefore the guy that is going to be the fall guy. Do you think the CEO of EA had anything to do with the launch of Sim City? Of course he didn't but none the less, he got fired. Ghostcrawler is going to be either moved in the company or replaced.

    As for is MoP a flop. Of course it is, it's losing subs. This game is based on subs and if your always going in one direction and it's down, then the game is a flop. This is the second expansion in a row now where your going to end up with less people playing it at the start of then the end of it. Is there reasons outside of GC's control? Of course but it doesn't matter. It's time for the game to get a new direction and for a different spokesmen (GC's Real Job) maybe this time they can get a real pr guy because GC is not very good at it.

  2. #342
    Anyone who thinks subscription numbers is the only metric for success is just wrong and is intentionally over simplifying people gaming habits/lives if you truly think that. I also happen to think overall the game has improved dramatically with EVERY expansion. While raiding in burning crusade was very good, it is in my opinion better now. A great deal of the "game was best when" statements really are "i had the most fun when" (which incidentally is a good metric of a good game) and people seem to forget a large portion of that was socially the game ebbs and flow as well and often those times when it was best for that individual socially, eg you were in a raid with people you actually liked or had groups to PvP with etc. All those things are still possible it just depends what you want to get out of your time online.

  3. #343
    I think he should be, but I know he won't be. It's not because I think he's solely responsible for the game's direction or sub loss or anything, I just despise his snotty attitude towards players, lack of knowledge on class balance and overall unwillingness to give ground on any issue that is brought up by the playerbase. Most of the suggestions and posts made by players ARE stupid and generally just terrible, but even the best ideas get no traction with him and if they do, it usually takes at least an entire expansion before blizzard decides they were good ideas and they should start working on implementing them. He DOES have an extremely difficult and stressful job, no doubt, but this game has gone downhill since WoTLK ended and some of the beginnings of that decline started in WoTLK (although it was still a very good expansion overall).

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert3620 View Post
    Of course not but he is the face of the game and therefore the guy that is going to be the fall guy. Do you think the CEO of EA had anything to do with the launch of Sim City? Of course he didn't but none the less, he got fired. Ghostcrawler is going to be either moved in the company or replaced. It's time for the game to get a new direction and for a different spokesmen (GC's Real Job) maybe this time they can get a real pr guy because GC is not very good at it.
    You really should look into what CEOs do in most companies and what their job security is like. They're getting paid so much because they usually have zero job security and can be hired or fired at the whim of the board to do some specific job. That kind of job description has got nothing to do with game developers who are several steps down the corporate ladders.

    Only in internet twit logic somebody who's not actually responsible for bad things will get sacked. Fortunately in real life it's actually almost always the people who are actually incompetent that get fired. Most likely GC has one of the most secure jobs at Blizzard for voluteering to work with random internet assholes in addition to his real job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uoyredrum View Post
    I just despise his snotty attitude towards players, lack of knowledge on class balance and overall unwillingness to give ground on any issue that is brought up by the playerbase. Most of the suggestions and posts made by players ARE stupid and generally just terrible, but even the best ideas get no traction with him
    Playerbase as an entity is incredibly selfish and stupid collection of people who are only interested about their own favourite class, while somebody like GC who actually has to make sure they're all more or less balanced knows better than the average internet randoms. GC started working on the class balance at the end of TBC (that is his main job nothing more, nothing less), and can anybody with a honest face say that class balance today is worse than in TBC when you look into all 34 specs?
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  5. #345
    This is one of the most unfounded polls.
    Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.

  6. #346
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Blizzard isn't daft enough to tie in any lost revenue with wow to forum raging against GC. I don't agree with just about anything the man says but my complaints are just lost in the noise, along with the rest of the forum community's griping against him.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    I don't get this argument. People don't pay for "shit" games and they certainly don't keep playing them. It may be "shit" for you but it isn't for many others.
    Yes, people pay for shit. There is routinely bad movies at the top of the charts, same with music. Some people even pay to see Uwe Boll movies.

    Popularity has little correlation with quality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Games don't last forever. Wow could have been in TBC mode all this time and there would still be significant subscriber loss.
    You don't know it.
    NOBODY knows it. Maybe it would. Maybe it would not.
    SOMEDAY any game is bound to lose consumers, but NOBODY (including Blizzard) can pretend to know that the losses were bound to happen at the time they happened or not.

    This is just a justification for people who like the design of today to pretend it's a good one. If it was a design they didn't like, they would just as easily use the losses as "proof" the design was bad.
    Last edited by Akka; 2013-08-10 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    You don't know it.
    NOBODY knows it. Maybe it would. Maybe it would not.
    We can't know for sure, but we can make educated inferences from the evidence. For example, a very BC-like competitor to WoW came out in 2011, Rift. It did not sustain its subscriber levels. The devs admitted the end game tuning was a mistake, particularly Hammerknell (the main Tier 2 raid).
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    We can't know for sure, but we can make educated inferences from the evidence.
    No we can't. People are just going to take the parts that agree with them and ignore the one that don't.

    Case in point :
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric
    For example, a very BC-like competitor to WoW came out in 2011, Rift. It did not sustain its subscriber levels. The devs admitted the end game tuning was a mistake, particularly Hammerknell (the main Tier 2 raid).
    I can contradict your evidence by pointing that Rift is a different game, so it has in itself a lot more reason why to people wouldn't like to play it (I didn't, and I'm sold on TBC design for example).
    I can provide my own take on "educated guess" and point that subscriptions were growing RIGHT UNTIL they changed the design to the casualfest (WotLK saw next to no growth, and after that it went crashing down).

    Samely you can contradict my evidence about subscriptions growing until TBC by saying that it's more due to the fact that the market wasn't saturated at the time, yadda yadda, to which I can answer back that we don't know if the market is actually saturated, etc., etc.

    Conclusion : no, we can't know. We all think we're the ones reasonables and that the facts prove us right and so on.
    Blizzard itself, having the numbers and details in hand, can obviously not know, considering how they DID lose so many subscribers and are frantically trying to stop the flow and are failing.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Samely you can contradict my evidence about subscriptions growing until TBC by saying that it's more due to the fact that the market wasn't saturated at the time, yadda yadda, to which I can answer back that we don't know if the market is actually saturated, etc., etc.

    Conclusion : no, we can't know. We all think we're the ones reasonables and that the facts prove us right and so on.
    You never can know for sure but there is one big compelling piece of evidence you're ignoring.

    SWToR

    Star Wars is a franchise almost every adult and most kids in the whole western world knows, hundred times bigger than Warcraft. Considering their incredibly poor results and not being profitable in the long run it's really easy to draw the conclusion that the time of subscription based MMORPGs is simply over and done. The whole genre started it's decline somewhere around 2010, possibly with the assistance of very high profile failures of Aion and FFXIV. Since then all subscription based games have gone downhill, WoW included, and the F2P games pioneered by Zynga have picked up the pieces and the players.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2013-08-10 at 12:03 PM.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  11. #351
    >vesseblah SWToR failed cause they just did CTRL+C CTRL+V WoW & SWKoToR.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by mmokri View Post
    >vesseblah SWToR failed cause they just did CTRL+C CTRL+V WoW & SWKoToR.
    Gaming companies used to believe that people play any crap that is launched just because it comes from some respected franchise, recent example would be SWToR, FFXIV or Duke Nukem 3D for example. The thing is that it's no longer true. The rules have changed forever which means there's never going to be another success like WoW, and throwback ideas like vanilla WoW servers would never work for the players of today and tomorrow.

    And thinking even for a second that something like TBC would work today as an viable business is epic stupidity.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2013-08-10 at 01:17 PM.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    You never can know for sure but there is one big compelling piece of evidence you're ignoring.
    =>
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka
    I can contradict your evidence by pointing that Rift is a different game, so it has in itself a lot more reason why to people wouldn't like to play it (I didn't, and I'm sold on TBC design for example).
    The same thing can be said for SWTOR.
    Actually considering how casual SWTOR was it actually, funilly enough, can be used for the opposite of your argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    And thinking even for a second that something like TBC would work today as an viable business is epic stupidity.
    The only epically stupid one, is the one who think he has some supernatural knowledge while he's just as ignorant as everyone else.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert3620 View Post
    As for is MoP a flop. Of course it is, it's losing subs.
    The game is almost 9 years old. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't losing subs at this point. The game has always been bleeding subs, but in the past that was replaced by new players coming in. At this point, almost everyone who has wanted to try WoW has tried it. That's why new subs have run dry and sub numbers are dropping. If you're losing the same amount, but not really gaining anymore, your numbers go down. Simple math.

    I think GC does at least a decent job, if not a good job. WoW is huge. It has probably the most diverse player-base of any game on Earth. It's pretty much impossible to cater to all of them, which is why we see these changes in philosophy every few years with WoW. Not everyone is going to be happy with the direction of the game, regardless of what direction that is. Hence the sub losses.

    The only thing I really think they need to do better is numbers tuning in between patches. There is really zero excuse for leaving certain specs (or even whole classes. See: PvE Warriors right now) out in the cold. Hotfix number tuning should be a LOT more common than it is. I completely understand not wanting to change rotations or mechanics in-between patches, but number tuning is quite easy and painless, so I don't see why it isn't commonplace.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    The only epically stupid one, is the one who think he has some supernatural knowledge while he's just as ignorant as everyone else.
    Hardcore games are niche today. Sure there are things like EVE but if WoW was still stuck in vanilla/TBC mentality today it would share EVEs 500k subs in the same hardcore niche.

    There's no supernatural knowledge, only common sense which seems to be pretty uncommon on this forum. You too would do whole lot better in life learning some.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    The same thing can be said for SWTOR.
    Actually considering how casual SWTOR was it actually, funilly enough, can be used for the opposite of your argument.
    You seemed to have missed the point by a planet or two, so let me recap:

    Star Wars franchise had an existing fanbase hundred times bigger than Warcraft, developed by BioWare who had previous sold millions and considered to be infallible, so common sense says they should have done much better they did. Since it failed even with the usual BW level content, common sense would say that the business model does not work even when mediocre BW games like ME3 or DA2 sold as well as they did.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2013-08-10 at 04:10 PM.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Hardcore games are niche today. Sure there are things like EVE but if WoW was still stuck in vanilla/TBC mentality today it would share EVEs 500k subs in the same hardcore niche.
    You don't have any way of actually knowing this, except probably that you simply want it to be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah
    There's no supernatural knowledge, only common sense which seems to be pretty uncommon on this forum. You too would do whole lot better in life learning some.
    Don't worry, I'm far to be in as much need of common sense than you are in humility.
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah
    You seemed to have missed the point by a planet or two, so let me recap:

    Star Wars franchise had an existing fanbase hundred times bigger than Warcraft, developed by BioWare who had previous sold millions and considered to be infallible, so common sense says they should have done much better they did. Since it failed even with the usual BW level content, common sense would say that the business model does not work even when mediocre BW games like ME3 or DA2 sold as well as they did.
    Common sense would indicate that if the fanbase was so big and so eager to play game related to Star Wars, then we would have seen every SW game up to now making huge sales.
    But fact is, despite doing rather good on average, they were rarely (never ?) huge success.
    So common sense tells us that the game probably didn't had that much on an advantage.
    Also, even more common sense claims that your reasoning is incredibly simplistic, as you reduce the incredibly numerous and complex reasons why a game is a success or not to a handful of parameters.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    The game is almost 9 years old. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't losing subs at this point. The game has always been bleeding subs, but in the past that was replaced by new players coming in. At this point, almost everyone who has wanted to try WoW has tried it. That's why new subs have run dry and sub numbers are dropping. If you're losing the same amount, but not really gaining anymore, your numbers go down. Simple math.
    This is faulty logic. There is absolutely no reason why WoW couldn't have kept 12mil+ subs for the next 10 or 20 years. People are still playing mmos; there's an MMO with more than 20 million players in the East atm. Why couldn't WoW have been that MMO? Look at a company like Apple, who reinvented itself after dominating the market in the 80s/90s and today remains a leading supplier of computers, along with ipads and ipods and tablets,etc.

    Bottom line is that WoW is losing subs because it failed to adapt itself to a changing market. So now that competitors are here offering other genres of games to play/other MMOs, people are choosing to play those games instead.

    Blizzard could still make a comeback and turn around the subscription loss, but they're going to have to innovate/change things up a lot for that to happen.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    This is faulty logic. There is absolutely no reason why WoW couldn't have kept 12mil+ subs for the next 10 or 20 years. People are still playing mmos; there's an MMO with more than 20 million players in the East atm.
    In the east probably. Not in the west which is the market Blizzard focuses on.

  19. #359
    There is just more competition from f2play/pay2win pvp mmo's, that will ofc draw some of the bottom line from wow (especially in asia) but that, combined with the inevitable fatigue that hits players when they do something for too long is the most likely reason for the decline.
    The game is arguably a lot better now, its less about silly useless timesinks (grinds), there is more to do and its definitly more complex in a lot of ways then before, if that doesn't attrack new players then its unlikely anything else will.
    Firing someone who makes the tough decisions won't make a difference, I dont always agree with mr Street but I think he's doing an ok job in hard cicumstances.

  20. #360
    Will he be? Doubtful.
    Should he be? Absolutely.

    The game has seen a huge decline under his watch.

    You can and I see are arguing that he is not solely responsible and true it may have lost people anyway cause of age etc... but those are not the points and do not matter. Someone has to take hit for the free fall the game is in and he has been put out there as the front man.
    Either by his own doing or by Blizzard, GC is "the man" and when you are "the man" you get the glory or you get the shit.

    It does not help that he is a complete asshole and has no concept of customer service or how to talk to consumers. That IMO is Blizzard's fault, (that they didn't pick someone that knows even the most basic aspects of communication) and they have and are paying for it.

    Its like a quarterback, he controls 1 aspect out of 30 of the game but if the team is loosing he takes 99% of the blame.

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