View Poll Results: Should Ghostcrawler be replaced as Lead Systems Designer?

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  • Yes

    523 22.68%
  • No

    1,783 77.32%
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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    Off the top of my head:
    1. "Dungeons are supposed to be hard"
    GC does not design dungeons.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    2. MOP rep system where it had to go back to a bastardized way of getting rep through instances
    There was a problem and they did quickest possible fix to it... Would you rather have it remain broken for the end of the expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    3. Talent system where Optimum talents still persisted.
    Hundred times better than old system that had mandatory builds, not just single talents.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  2. #462
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    Off the top of my head:
    1. "Dungeons are supposed to be hard"
    2. MOP rep system where it had to go back to a bastardized way of getting rep through instances
    3. Talent system where Optimum talents still persisted. Most recently they made one of the shammy talents baseline because there was no reason to take anything else in that tier for a shammy healer.
    1. Dungeons can be whatever difficulty they should be. They're the primary form of gearing before raiding, thus why should they be difficult? Most of the player base rejected the difficulty of Cata dungeons. Also, to add to that, Mists dungeons weren't super easy. Once you get geared, they become easy. It's the same case in ANY environment (dungeons, scenarios, raiding)
    2. Mists rep system was admitted to initially be a failure and has been fixed/tweeked since then. I haven't seen a single person complain about it since then
    3. The current talent system is a step in the right direction to not be cookie cutter.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    GC does not design dungeons.



    There was a problem and they did quickest possible fix to it... Would you rather have it remain broken for the end of the expansion?



    Hundred times better than old system that had mandatory builds, not just single talents.
    Woah! Woah! Hulk wanna be angry and do Nerd Rage on Internet! Hulk no wanna see logic or reason... HULK ANGRY!!!!

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    1. Dungeons can be whatever difficulty they should be. They're the primary form of gearing before raiding, thus why should they be difficult? Most of the player base rejected the difficulty of Cata dungeons. Also, to add to that, Mists dungeons weren't super easy. Once you get geared, they become easy. It's the same case in ANY environment (dungeons, scenarios, raiding)
    2. Mists rep system was admitted to initially be a failure and has been fixed/tweeked since then. I haven't seen a single person complain about it since then
    3. The current talent system is a step in the right direction to not be cookie cutter.
    Did you even read my posts? No, dungeons had no business being hard in Cata. I put it in quotation marks to mock a blog post GC made and which he had to reverse not long thereafter. Cata dungeon difficulty was a major failure and GC even made a blog post about how people essentially needed to L2P. I linked to that blog post from 2011 several posts ago.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    Did you even read my posts? No, dungeons had no business being hard in Cata. I put it in quotation marks to mock a blog post GC made and which he had to reverse not long thereafter. Cata dungeon difficulty was a major failure and GC even made a blog post about how people essentially needed to L2P. I linked to that blog post from 2011 several posts ago.
    What? People make mistakes and then try to fix them as well as they can? Since when?!

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    Did you even read my posts? No, dungeons had no business being hard in Cata. I put it in quotation marks to mock a blog post GC made and which he had to reverse not long thereafter. Cata dungeon difficulty was a major failure and GC even made a blog post about how people essentially needed to L2P. I linked to that blog post from 2011 several posts ago.
    But Cata dungeons were never hard. Only people who are terrible at the game think they were. Which sadly is a large portion of the player base.

    I can't bring my self to do dungeons anymore. They are too easy and boring and content like that make me stop playing.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Trogie View Post
    But Cata dungeons were never hard. Only people who are terrible at the game think they were. Which sadly is a large portion of the player base.
    Difficulty is relative to a population, not an absolute. I'm sure you're terrible compared to a perfect robot that never makes mistakes.

    So, yes, the dungeons were too hard for the intended audience. Insulting that audience may make you feel better, but otherwise doesn't change a thing.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    If you fire someone every time they make a mistake you'll always have someone who has never made mistakes to learn from.
    That's true sometimes, but it's a problem when the decisions made went against popular opinion and were sold to us under the guise that fans don't understand what they really want. Subs were soaring under the Wrath model, but a vocal minority were flooding the forums with their epeen tears.

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzyy View Post
    you think that if WoW doesn't continually rise in subs the person in charge is failing?
    Nope, didn't say that. However, it's a huge indicator of a problem in a company when almost half of your customers take their business elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trogie View Post
    But Cata dungeons were never hard. Only people who are terrible at the game think they were. Which sadly is a large portion of the player base.
    The game should be tuned to maximize popularity, not to maximize epeen. If it's glory you're looking for, there are schools that need to be built in the developing world. Go for it! ;D

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Trogie View Post
    But Cata dungeons were never hard. Only people who are terrible at the game think they were. Which sadly is a large portion of the player base.

    I can't bring my self to do dungeons anymore. They are too easy and boring and content like that make me stop playing.
    They were substantially harder for the average player than WOTLK ones at launch. That is a fact. I never said they were hard for me. But if I queued up with 4 other people and 1-2 were horrible at avoiding 1 shot mechanics or applying CC properly, I had a long dungeon experience.

    For (some) people's viewing pleasure I post a link to a thread I made about why Cata was a failure. (in 2011) It is amusing how at the time people treated 900K subscription loss with contempt saying that only Wrath Newbs and Wrath babies left. 2 years and MILLIONS of subscriptions later, people are still leaving in droves.
    The defense mechanism of treating any subscription loss as minor, saying the game was "old" was as active then as it is now.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...le-defend-Cata
    Last edited by LordBalkoth; 2013-08-16 at 05:08 PM.

  10. #470
    Legendary! Tizzlefix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Wrong. TBC trade channel was "lf3m daily heroic: tank, healer and dps (no cc=no inv)". You really did not get pugs as non-CC dps classes. Rogues that didn't spec into improved sap were frequently kicked out of the group for being noobs.
    Umm? Played rogue all the way as my main class since Vanilla and in BC I was getting groups left and right and I sucked at the game. I didn't learn how to be good until Karazhan. Here's my other question, why would you not spec into improved sap? CC is CC and the longer it lasts the better. You were a noob if you didn't do so and to say that a rogue shouldn't be called a noob because he did that makes absolutely no sense. There is a "right" way to play the game, there are sometimes multiple "right" ways to play the game. It's an MMO, why would you not want to spec the best way possible? Theorycrafting is done for a reason and it doesn't take a smart guy to realize that improved sap back then was amazing for 5 mans (not so much for raids).

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Toadstone View Post
    That's true sometimes, but it's a problem when the decisions made went against popular opinion and were sold to us under the guise that fans don't understand what they really want. Subs were soaring under the Wrath model, but a vocal minority were flooding the forums with their epeen tears.
    this just isn't true. subs soared under the classic and bc models and continued up a bit for a few months after wotlk release and began the slow bleed (western) while china growth masked it in the worldwide number.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2013-08-16 at 05:34 PM.
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  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Trogie View Post
    But Cata dungeons were never hard. Only people who are terrible at the game think they were. Which sadly is a large portion of the player base.

    I can't bring my self to do dungeons anymore. They are too easy and boring and content like that make me stop playing.
    Would not say never. They were hard in the first implementation, then nerfed so that the majority could do them.

    And dungeons are the reason I play. It's probably one of the bigger contributing factors why I'm unsubbed.

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    I disagree. Class balance is closer than it ever was prior to him joining the development team. He does class and tradeskills and has *input* on other areas. Just like we have input.
    Classes are "balanced" because they've been homogenized to hell and back. Here's your self-heal. Here's your secondary resource. Here's your healing reduction. Here's your interrupt, your silence, and your cc. Here's your buff that you share with two other classes. Here's your burst cooldown and your timing-based rotation. Here's your defensive cooldown. Give Ghostcrawler another two xpacs and there will be one class where the only "choice" you get will be what your armor looks like and what color sparkles you shoot.
    Since 9/11 the NSA has spent at least $70,000,000,000 while lying about their own effectiveness. Even if we sweep aside the extensive lawbreaking, ethical problems, economic damage, and abuse of power, the fact remains that the NSA makes us all less secure, running useless mass surveillance, with a handful of successes in other questionably legal programs.

  14. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    Classes are "balanced" because they've been homogenized to hell and back. Here's your self-heal. Here's your secondary resource. Here's your healing reduction. Here's your interrupt, your silence, and your cc. Here's your buff that you share with two other classes. Here's your burst cooldown and your timing-based rotation. Here's your defensive cooldown. Give Ghostcrawler another two xpacs and there will be one class where the only "choice" you get will be what your armor looks like and what color sparkles you shoot.
    Your signature made me giggle a bit, so much irony.

  15. #475
    Anybody who hast posted or is considering to post in this thread should read this:
    http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/462...support-groups
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Anybody who hast posted or is considering to post in this thread should read this
    That is really interesting. I don't know that it's possible to bully Ghostcrawler. If anything, I think GC has done his own share of bullying, especially when he has the opportunity to feel intellectually superior. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't feel sorry for him. However, I do agree that in a lot of cases the abuse of video game developers goes much too far. Vesseblah, I think you're a supporter of Ghostcrawler and a more challenging version of WoW? It's important to remember that it was fan "bullying" that caused the successful Wrath model to be abandoned.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Toadstone View Post
    I don't know that it's possible to bully Ghostcrawler.
    That's because you've dehumanized him. To you, GC is a force of nature, and his every action is an act of malice perpetrated against the class of player that fails to benefit from it. To people who think like you the over-tuned difficulty in Cataclysm wasn't a miscalculation; it was a thwarted attempt to exclude non-raiders from the game. The changes to PvP weren't intended to balance the playing field; they were intended to punish PvPers for daring to enjoy PvP. Please cite specific instances where you felt GC was the bully. I have yet to see a quote where he deliberately went out of his way to insult anyone.

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    That's because you've dehumanized him. To you, GC is a force of nature, and his every action is an act of malice perpetrated against the class of player that fails to benefit from it. To people who think like you the over-tuned difficulty in Cataclysm wasn't a miscalculation; it was a thwarted attempt to exclude non-raiders from the game. The changes to PvP weren't intended to balance the playing field; they were intended to punish PvPers for daring to enjoy PvP. Please cite specific instances where you felt GC was the bully. I have yet to see a quote where he deliberately went out of his way to insult anyone.
    Although I agree strongly that GC gets lots of harassment -- and I've been trying not to scapegoat him, these days, for that reason -- he's volleyed some pretty barbed insults at players who pointed out inconsistencies in design policy. The most notorious example is referenced on this page: His post defending Cataclysm dungeon difficulty (this was roughly when I left Cata, i.e. Jan 2011). It was a thinly veiled "learn to play" dismissal at a player who said LFG was too hard -- and a pretty sad one, considering Cata dungeons were tuned so poorly in 4.0 that a single idiot could wreck them with 4 good players compensating.

    (edit) To be clear, I'm not trying to justify the harassment he gets. I am trying to say that no one should claim he's totally innocent of insulting and/or bad behavior.
    Last edited by Vulcanasm; 2013-08-16 at 09:35 PM.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Toadstone View Post
    I don't know that it's possible to bully Ghostcrawler.
    Half of this thread is nothing but bullying, and the posts demanding for him to be fired are among the nicer ones...

    Quote Originally Posted by Toadstone View Post
    I think you're a supporter of Ghostcrawler and a more challenging version of WoW?
    I think the game balance is better than in any previous expansions, talking from the point of view of somebody whose gametime is spent 80% in heroic mode 25man raids. Sure it could be better, but it's gone in the right direction so I think as a guy who's in charge of game balance GC has done good job overall.

    For me the challenge level is just about right in MoP raids, finishing the tier about month before next one comes out. Not too long downtime before next one, and not impossible either. But then again raid design or the overall game difficulty is not something GC is in charge of, only in advisory position along with other team leads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toadstone View Post
    It's important to remember that it was fan "bullying" that caused the successful Wrath model to be abandoned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    The most notorious example is referenced on this page: His post defending Cataclysm dungeon difficulty (this was roughly when I left Cata, i.e. Jan 2011). It was a thinly veiled "learn to play" dismissal at a player who said LFG was too hard
    GC and various other blue posters have said multiple times they went deliberately for harder PvE content in cata because people whined about easy WLK instances on various forums. And afterwards during MoP beta they also said the difficulty was a big mistake that will not be repeated.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2013-08-16 at 09:38 PM.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  20. #480
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gee View Post
    lolol

    It did NOT work out.
    It most certainly did not and my hope is that the developers come to this conclusion as well. I remember towards the end of cataclysm just before mists came out their was a podcast interview with ghostcrawler where he basically spent the entire interview trash talking cataclysm and maintaining that "they got it" now and mists was the result of them "getting it". Mists is a COLOSSAL failure.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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