Bonus Rolls Were a Bad Idea...

[Zardi]

Get out of here I hate doing every avenue of lesser charm acquisition. Hopefully I count as a heroic raider but you know I don't really enjoy anything about wow other than raiding so if this was an attempt at giving me something to do outside of raiding which already existed beforehand, well, there was a reason I didn't do it before.

If you consider yourself a good raider, you should definitely be seizing every single chance at upgrades and therefore progress. Be that bonus rolls, VP, enchanting, gemming, flasking, profession levelling, reputation farming... anything. If you don't, you're not a heroic raider. Or at least, not the best you could be.

Your contribution to a guild, no matter how hardcore, doesn't end in "smashing buttons and doing lots of dps". You could well have killed Ra-Den 12 times, and still not be a good raider; dragging your own guild down because of sheer laziness.

[Deleted]

Blizzard has always stated that the coins, mogu runes, etc are all optional to give you an extra chance at loot.

An extra chance at loot is never "optional". As soon as you add something like this, it becomes mandatory for every raider who wants to stay on par with his fellow raiders.

I would like to see them removed as well, along with a revamp of the current loot and VP system.

[Fenixdown]

I would have given anything during TBC to have an extra chance to get the Healing Mace from Illidan, we killed him at least 30 and never saw it drop. We did have 3 or 4 Warglaives. One of the really annoying things about raiding during both Vanilla and TBC, if you where unlucky with drops you where SOL, the Healing Mace from Illidan, T4 Priest Leg token, Priest T2 Gloves are items that just would not drop for my raid group.

Off topic completely, but why would you even WANT Tier 4? BiS was Whitemend + Primal Mooncloth.

On topic, I have some 2000+ lesser charms. The only thing, LITERALLY, that I do is pet battle dailies. That's it. Per day (yes, day), I get 40-50 lesser charms.

Furthermore, I'm doing something that I enjoy in pet battles. Now, people like the OP and altruic probably hate pet battles. And dailies. And PvP. And everything in the game that isn't a raid boss. So, then the question becomes this. Why are you even playing this game, let alone why are you whining about bonus rolls? If someone is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to get lesser charms, it's not Blizzard. IT'S YOURSELF OR YOUR GUILD.

Put proper blame where it lies. Bonus rolls were a fantastic idea. I'd say nearly half the gear I have right now I've gotten from bonus rolls. It sure beats the alternative of waiting six months for my BiS cape or three months for my BiS trinket (things that actually did happen). If you don't like every single facet of the game that you can use to get lesser charms, altruic, why do you even log in anymore? No, I'm being serious. There's like four different ways to get lesser charms now and you don't like any of them? That's just pathetic. Go do PvP then, there's no bonus rolls in BGs.

[Erolian]

If you consider yourself a good raider, you should definitely be seizing every single chance at upgrades and therefore progress. Be that bonus rolls, VP, enchanting, gemming, flasking, profession levelling, reputation farming... anything. If you don't, you're not a heroic raider. Or at least, not the best you could be.

Your contribution to a guild, no matter how hardcore, doesn't end in "smashing buttons and doing lots of dps". You could well have killed Ra-Den 12 times, and still not be a good raider; dragging your own guild down because of sheer laziness.

I hope you realize I never said I don't do them. I was only saying that if the reward and helping my team out wasn't attached to obtaining these coins then I would not be doing this content. Its a cheap gimmick to lure people into content they don't enjoy to begin with. The fact that certain activities need these carrots to be played as much as blizzard likes speaks volumes about how bad the content actually is. It can't stand on its own as a fun gaming activity it has to feel like a mandatory piece of a larger machine to see a lot of play time rather than tons of people going in and playing just to play and have fun.

Yes some people do find parts of this fun. I would like for them to keep their fun activities. I would also like their activity to stay away from mine if at all possible.

[Perceus]

Ok I do agree, dailies suck massively hard. So heres what I do every few weeks.

I go to a website called openraid.eu.

I go into quickraid and I look for a lesser charm farming group. I then join it on the toons I need coins for. A few hours and I have enough coins to last several months on multiple toons, especially my lower geared alts that find killing daily mobs a complete chore.

take my advice, will save you alot of time.

[Dontrike]

I don't know about you guys but that doesn't really sound like fun as much as it sounds like a carrot attached to a time sink. Maybe I'm crazy.

Time sink? You mean that hour of playing outside of a raid once per week? They are not hard to get nor require much of any work to get.

What would you consider fun?

[tyrindor]

Pet battles are a much better source of lesser charms. There are options, and pet battles are not nearly as bad as many claim. It's pretty fun when you have a wide range of pets to work with. You also can level new pets easily after you have 2 level 25 pets. They also added lesser charms to elites and level 90 mobs. They drop all over the place, I get far more than the 50 required just by signing on and doing random stuff.

I'm up to 2784 lesser charms, up from around 1400 2 weeks ago. Pet battles, not a single daily outside a few pet tamers, and killing rares. Basically just playing the game...

Honestly if you don't want to do one of the 3 things you can do to get lesser charms then maybe your aren't enjoying the game anymore.

[Erolian]

Time sink? You mean that hour of playing outside of a raid once per week? They are not hard to get nor require much of any work to get.

What would you consider fun?

I honestly think my main issue with it is going from raid bosses to daily quests/rare mobs is that the complexity of the activity drops tremendously which is fine because some people enjoy it more that way but for me its like I'm just mashing buttons for an hour just because. Its like playing a game with invincible mode activated and it isn't really engaging at all. I think for me to have fun gathering charms it would have to come from very difficult mobs that I could enjoy fighting with rather than just watching them vaporize in front of me. Maybe charms from PvP? I'm not entirely sure. As for pet battles, well, it just isn't really my thing.

edit: I've got a good one actually, how about brawlers guild? That was pretty fun while it lasted and would add some replay value.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

The questgiver should have just given you the the greater charms every week from talking to him-like Blingtron. It would still accomplish the same goal of giving people another way to combat RNG for bosses they need without all the annoying and pointless daily farming you had to do beforehand. Dropping it to 50 and making mobs drop it was a little better, I guess.

[Pony Soldier]

Why get rid of something that is a "bonus". Bonus' are usually a good thing, no? It's rewarding the people who took the time to do those dailies. It's like you said it's optional so people who care about getting the points/coins/marks to get the gear will get it and people who don't won't. If people QQ about it that's their problem, the dailies are there for them do and earn those coins so there should be no bitching whatsoever. If you don't like doing dailies then don't do them, you just won't get the extra loot that's all. It's amazing how people care about loot so much. Why can't people just have fun with the game and stop complaining about things they want or can't get all the time? It's like a bunch of 7 year olds play this game (not talking to you OP, the WoW community in general).

[tyrindor]

The questgiver should have just given you the the greater charms every week from talking to him-like Blingtron. It would still accomplish the same goal of giving people another way to combat RNG for bosses they need without all the annoying and pointless daily farming you had to do beforehand. Dropping it to 50 and making mobs drop it was a little better, I guess.

Gimme free stuff, I don't want to play the game. We should just be able to sign on weekly, talk to an NPC, and randomly get 1-3 pieces of loot. Then we can sign off until next week. Seriously though, why should "Bonus" rolls be free? Bonus is something you need to work towards.

Now that it is 50 and you get them from mob/rare drops and pet battles as well, you should get far more than the required amount simply playing the game. I mean not even trying I think I was getting around 150 a week, and that's doing maybe 1-3 dailies a day (all pet tamers). You get so many just from mob kills and rare kills. Then I started pet battling, boring at first but it grew on me, and got over 1000 in a week.

[zeropeorth]

Replace bonus roll with gems/enchants and your entire post is still the same. Remove those too please, cba buying stuff to enhance my gear.

not the same at all. While the OP didn't put forth the idea eloquently (too much bias and potential baiting, intended or not), the idea itself is sound. Using bonus rolls for LFR and world bosses, allows it to be used strictly for optional content, not progression. I leave world bosses in there, because it is better for everyone (especially on lower population servers) to have more people out there attempting those bosses.

With this system, high end progression raiders only mess with LFR strictly at the beginning of an xpac or if a tier set needs completion and it isn't coming any other way.

I'd almost modify it even further to only restrict bonus rolls away from heroic; since that is the real progression, and let them be used in flex/normals; but that would probably cause a stir (which is why I suggested flex and normal, not just flex). To counter this, I'd suggest a bump in the drop rates of items (and possible quantity of) in heroic raids, since they take much more execution and commitment, including the 'heroic thunderforged' versions of gear in the tier.

Basically, take bonus rolls out of heroic, but increase total item drops from each boss and additional 'infused' loot drop rates, as well as moving to a token system that eliminates the disenchanting of tier pieces for people working their asses off in progression; putting forth that effort shouldn't net you with a druid with 4 sets of tier with specific enchants and gearing and the rest of the raid with nothing.


Ms. Derpette;
the reason gems and enchants are not the same as bonus rolls, is because it isn't just 'extra, optional' things any longer. While some of the enchant slots could use a bit more variety and creativity; both gems and enchants have the ability to give choice, variety, and flavor to the game/player. Gems allows you to choose secondary stats that are appropriate for your build/class/spec ... the limited choice, if you see one, comes down more to Blizz needing to be more aggressive at making all stats have an equal value to the classes, so stacking one (or spreading the stats) comes down to personal preference and playstyle, instead of a simmed best (like they tried to do with talents. The same could be said for enchants. Procs, and values of direct primary/secondary stats, need to be set and/or adjusted so that each one can be attractive to most classes specs, so then the choice of them also comes down primarily to player choice on playstyle, and not a spreadsheet telling you one is far superior to the others. I'd say 1% delta is good for 99% of the players to exhibit choice; world first type players/guilds will always pursue those extra 1%, while the people who are completing the content weeks/months later need to worry more about execution, teamwork, communication, practice, and overall raid ilvl ... than a total 3-6% increase across all variables under perfect conditions.



Though I think the overall real issue comes down to player and community attitude, as it has devolved over the last 5 or so years. When the game for the 99% gets taken more serious than real life issues; you will see a decline in subs. The elite, world first players are a special breed, and even they get burned out. But not everyone, no matter their effort, can play at that level, so most need to realize they need to play for fun, and enjoy the challenges presented to them at their own personal level. Ego gets in the way of this a lot of the time; as a lot of people can't see their own limitations and failures, and guild hop because it must be the group, not them. Not everyone is a pro player at their 'sport'; but that doesn't mean you can't go play basketball and have fun, or even be in challenging championships without putting in the time and dedication of a pro player. Insert any sport there.

First have fun, then find the level of challenge appropriate for you. If you don't have fun farming tokens, don't do it. It really is that simple and goes for any part of the game. There is no requirement for you to do anything you don't want to, other than what you place on yourself. You can't blame Blizz, you can't blame your guild; you are the only one to blame for not having fun in the game you pay for. Unfortunately, because of hive minds, lack of self-knowledge, and weak willpower; Blizz does have to design and set restrictions to some parts of their game, when the majority of players going after specific things start griping, even if they should just leave it be for the majority. You can't teach people to be a strong, independent, confident individual who can tell themselves and others 'no'.


I do believe the ones who deserve to call themselves heroic raiders ... do not complain about much at all. They see the tasks ahead, and they set goals, then accomplish those goals. They don't care about millions of people in LFR. They don't care about which tasks they do; they just know hard work and dedication is the path to victory, and get it done; and they know and have proven they have the skill to make all that effort worth it at the end of the day. If you ever feel it isn't worth it, or you aren't getting where you think you should, inflection on whether you really have what it takes to get a boss down within the first week or two of the first kill before projecting anger is the best first step. If you really see you have a higher potential, then that is a time to gather your logs, your videos ... and apply to a guild that you feel is more to your level. They will analyze these things and let you know if they feel if you are of their mettle; keep trying ... and if they all turn you down, then realize that you are still a great player; you just aren't ready for the big leagues yet. Don't hate the game, don't hate the players ... just decide if it is worth more dedication or a step back to a level that you enjoy yourself more.

From personal experience, taking a step back, and being in a guild with ex-high end progressive raiders who are just having fun ... makes the game much more enjoyable, and you still progress much faster than the majority of players. I mean a TON of fun, laughing, and much less time commitment, while still being high ranked on the realm. Once you experience that, you wonder why you dealt with all that stress before ... yes, the intensity is nice, and being at the cutting edge can be extremely rewarding; but sometimes you have to ask yourself 'at what cost?', and how you answer that is related to past accomplishments, your current life situations, how you've changed or not since you first started playing, along with a myriad of other factors that change as you age and mature in life and your goals in life.

I can personally say I spent 10x+ more time in gaming 10 years ago than I do now. What was acceptable or even minimal effort back then; just isn't feasible now and would create waves in both professional and home life; and any game just doesn't compare to real life stuff for me any longer. When you fight yourself over this, you can get very angry about the things in game you used to deem 'mandatory'. It isn't the game's fault, it isn't yours. It is just how life works, and it doesn't matter what your hobby is, unless you get paid for your hobby

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

Gimme free stuff, I don't want to play the game. We should just be able to sign on weekly, talk to an NPC, and randomly get 1-3 pieces of loot. Then we can sign off until next week. Why should "Bonus" rolls be free? Bonus is something you need to work towards.

Now that it is 50 and you get them from mob/rare drops and pet battles as well, you should get far more than the required amount simply playing the game. I mean not even trying I think I was getting around 150 a week. Then I started pet battling, boring at first but it grew on me, and got over 1000 in a week.

The purpose of the coins is to help avoid long bad streaks and give people another chance to get loot they need piece off of a particular boss. You would still have to do the most important thing to get that shot at loot-killing the boss. Further tying it to having to do 45 dailies was a pretty stupid way to enact that purpose. It was sort of fine when the daily grind was needed to unlock the other stuff, but it got pretty tedious after that.

[Ealyssa]

Don't really understand the whole "charms farming"...

You need 50 lesser charms a week.

You usually have 3 braindead daily at the golden lotus every day (where you don't even have to kill mobs...). So 6 charms/days in ~5 minutes. That alone make you 42 charms a week. If you don't just loot the 8 last on any 90+ mobs you naturally kill in one week, just do 4 more dailies or a few pet battle...

It barely take you 40 minutes a week... Really can't see how that is hard faming. I can understand being against the whole bonus roll concept. But arguing against only because of "overwhelming farm" ??? Seriously ?

[schwank05]

If not for bonus rolls, I don't think I would have gotten any gear from LFR this entire xpac, I never get things to just drop for me so. If not for the Bonus rolls Id not be playing as I play for gear.

[Deleted]

they were the worst idea ever

until i bonus rolled my trinket off horridon heroic



i dont like the bonus rolls thingy so when i get the statement piece i want, i just stop grinding them
epic loot has been totally pointless and crap ever since TBC ended.. so anyway to make content easier to clear, is a good input to this game

[l33t]

No thanks, bonus rolls were a great idea, so far I'm having almost 80% of my raid loot gained from bonus rolls, same was in t14. Regular drops in 10 are awful for me, yes.
If you are lazy and don't want to work towards having more loot - you don't deserve more loot. It is just as simple as was the matter of doing or not doing dailies to obtain valor epics. And please, spare us the crap of "having fun". You grind your coins to have the possibility to receive bonus item. If getting a bonus is not fun enough to you, then don't grind coins.

[tyrindor]

The purpose of the coins is to help avoid long bad streaks and give people another chance to get loot they need piece off of a particular boss. You would still have to do the most important thing to get that shot at loot-killing the boss. Further tying it to having to do 45 dailies was a pretty stupid way to enact that purpose. It was sort of fine when the daily grind was needed to unlock the other stuff, but it got pretty tedious after that.

I totally agree back when it was 90 and the only way to get them was dailies it was stupid. No arguments here. However now it is so easy it's not even something you should ever have to focus on/farm.

Don't want to do dailies? Alright, pet battles.
Don't want to do pet battles? Alright, go kill rares and mobs out in the world.
Don't want to kill rares/mobs? Alright, do dailies.

Mix/match these options as desired. If none of these appeal to the player, then I use the same logic a blue post once said.. "Why exactly are they playing the game?"

Outside of heroic raiding guilds, these are completely optional. If you want to gear faster, it's not much effort to get the 50 a week. If your in a heroic raiding guild, well then your going to be spending a lot more than the 30 minutes required to farm these. I probably spend a good 2-3 hours a week farming mats for flasks/pots/300 food.

[Sierra85]

the idea is good, but at launch it was a bit too annoying to do dailies etc.

it's a bit better now that there are other ways of getting lesser charms.

[LocNess]

Bonus rolls are some of the greatest additions to this expansion. So helpful to be able to give your raiders that extra chance on a trinket boss. Saves you on a lot of loot if you get lucky too.