[Spoilers] Why is the horde killing the best warchief they have ever had?

[Airwaves]

And there are quite a few mag'har orcs in his ranks as well.

He is there chieften. So they are honor bound to serve him. I am sure not all of the agree with him but serve him out of there code of honor. Same can be said for the Kor'kron. The blackrock orcs serve him out of there choice.

[Venziir]

He is there chieften. So they are honor bound to serve him. I am sure not all of the agree with him but serve him out of there code of honor. Same can be said for the Kor'kron. The blackrock orcs serve him out of there choice.

Eh, the few mag'har orcs that serve Garrosh with dialogue, like General Crommush - all seem VERY content to help Garrosh kill anything non-orc.

[Deleted]

I remember him from the Cata quest where he kills an Orc General for destroying a Tauren/Night elf Druid Shrine. At that moment he became the Best Warchief in my opinion, But the Lore guys made him into an Racist Orc that has nothing in common with the Warchief of Stonetalon.

[Keristrasza]

oh no my dear, its very cool to do so.

Truth, Garrosh should have been assassinated back in Nagrand before he ever had a chance to become a "thing"

I remember him from the Cata quest where he kills an Orc General for destroying a Tauren/Night elf Druid Shrine. At that moment he became the Best Warchief in my opinion, But the Lore guys made him into an Racist Orc that has nothing in common with the Warchief of Stonetalon.

That moment there, made me think twice about Garrosh. That MAYBE he wasn't such a bad guy, buuuut that idea was shot down REALLY fast.

[Belisaurio]

Oh god, not this "argument" again....

What's the problem that we want war? Since 1994 we played Blizzards Horde (baddies) and killed Alliance guys. They ripped that from us, so when someone appear that had similar things from old Horde, of course that old player feel nostalgics. It's not our fault, it's that we can't chose the "cross side of the coint" when we chose factions, we have red good guys and blue good guys, so in the end, we lose one side.

[Hitei]

He is there chieften. So they are honor bound to serve him. I am sure not all of the agree with him but serve him out of there code of honor. Same can be said for the Kor'kron. The blackrock orcs serve him out of there choice.

Horde players confirmed for having no honor.

[Lynneiah]

Thrall's primary goal was the survival of his people. You know, as in staying alive? Being not horribly slaughtered by the hostile natives everywhere around them?
He gave the Orcs, Trolls and (indirectly) the Tauren a new homeland, and fostered a bond of brotherhood among at least the Kalimdor races of the Horde. He didn't engage the Horde in all-out war against the Alliance because quite frankly he didn't need to, and he knew that such a war wouldn't necessarily be productive to the Horde's survival, even if they won. He was a mediator, and led the Horde through an era of relative peace to prosperity.

Garrosh, by sharp contrast managed to piss just about everyone off, especially his own allies. He's running the Horde into the ground with his pointless war of genocide, and he's tearing it apart from the inside with his orc supremacist policies; all for the sole reason of stroking his own ego. He is rash, reckless, and frankly moronic. He doesn't think of the long-term consequences of his short-term decisions, and he doesn't care about anyone else. Least of all about you, random Horde player.
And now, when it's all coming back to bite him in the arse, people actually wonder why?

[Venziir]

I remember him from the Cata quest where he kills an Orc General for destroying a Tauren/Night elf Druid Shrine. At that moment he became the Best Warchief in my opinion, But the Lore guys made him into an Racist Orc that has nothing in common with the Warchief of Stonetalon.

... So one semi-decent deed (Keep in mind that Garrosh was about to hurl the player off the ledge too), is enough for you to see him as the best warchief? REALLY?!

[Chonar]

Where did Garrosh get enough orcs to successfully conquer the world without allies? Is there a Kor'kron cloning machine or something?

All I'm reminded of is this oneliner in the Vol'jin vs Saurok scenario.

"Yes! The power to shape flesh! To BUILD warriors! THIS.. is what the warchief wants!"

[Lynneiah]

I remember him from the Cata quest where he kills an Orc General for destroying a Tauren/Night elf Druid Shrine. At that moment he became the Best Warchief in my opinion, But the Lore guys made him into an Racist Orc that has nothing in common with the Warchief of Stonetalon.

And then he dropped a bomb on Theramore. Way to stick to your principles, Gary...

[Verdugo]

Where did Garrosh get enough orcs to successfully conquer the world without allies? Is there a Kor'kron cloning machine or something?

Its called "Metzens Asshole". Unfortunately, soldiers emerge from it only when it is convenient for the plot.

[Venziir]

Blizzard just released a new short story, revolving around an orc and a cloud serpent. Now, this orc says all that needs to be said about Garrosh;

"Koak looked to the sky, remembering the Alliance gunship that had shot him down and the search party that never came. "Hellscream abandoned me on this island," he answered. "I will not do the same to my serpent."

"You seem to dislike this Hellscream fellow," Anli observed.

Koak thought at length about how to respond. "The Horde is his army," he said at last, "but we are not his people." It was treason to say so, but only Anli was there to hear him. "Garrosh demands loyalty, but to him that just means dying at his command. He doesn't know what loyalty is. Thrall inspired loyalty. What Garrosh wants is obedience.""

The Order of the Cloud Serpent had taught Koak a valuable lesson. True loyalty can never be enforced; it can only be earned. He had raised and nurtured his serpent, cared for and confided in it, and in return it had saved his life. The Horde had done the same for him: they had taken him in and given him a family when he was orphaned and alone, and now Koak would stand beside them against Hellscream and the Dragonmaw alike.
Doing so would forever mark Koak as an outcast from his clan. But the Horde was born of outcasts and rebels, homeless refugees with no one to depend on but each other. Together, they had built a home for themselves: Orgrimmar.
Together, they would take it back.
"For the Horde!" Koak exclaimed. He remembered now the meaning of those words. To fight for the Horde was to fight for one's brothers and sisters, to fold the strength of one into the strength of many and create a bond that could never be broken.
That was the true strength of the Horde—the strength of steel."

And this is why Garrosh needs to be removed. This is why Garrosh isn't the "BESTEST WARCHEEEF EVAH!". Even a sour, grizzled, Dragonmaw veteran can see this logic.

- - - Updated - - -

What's the problem that we want war? Since 1994 we played Blizzards Horde (baddies) and killed Alliance guys. They ripped that from us, so when someone appear that had similar things from old Horde, of course that old player feel nostalgics. It's not our fault, it's that we can't chose the "cross side of the coint" when we chose factions, we have red good guys and blue good guys, so in the end, we lose one side.

They "ripped" that from you? No. They expanded the story and chose to do their own thing instead of doing the usual "orcs are evil, humans are good" thing. Besides, most people that play WoW (even back in Vanilla) had never played Warcraft 1 or 2, most of them had barely even played Warcraft 3, besides a few online fights or DOTA.

- - - Updated - - -

Horde players confirmed for having no honor.

Garrosh is the one without honour.

[Airwaves]

Horde players confirmed for having no honor.

Way to not read what i fucking wrote. The Mag'har are honor bound because he is there chieften and the Kor'kron are Honor bound because of there role in the horde. Where the fuck did i say the rest of the horde was honor bound?

[Itisamuh]

To be honest, I loved Garrosh, and still do. Every in game quest where you help him, I've always felt he treated you with respect as a good and loyal soldier. I don't think he wants to eliminate or enslave all non orcs, even if he feels they're inferior. But like any leader, he isn't going to tolerate rebellion. I'd happily have fought for him against Vol'jin if the game gave me the chance, until Sylvanas showed up at least. My loyalty to her might be a little bit stronger. I don't think anything Garrosh did regarding the Alliance was wrong at all. They're his enemies, and he's doing what he can to take them down.

However, now he's getting involved with Old God corruption, willingly, and that's crossing the line. It's no better than getting involved with the Legion, maybe worse. I personally won't partake in his ousting, out of principle. But I admit that with his Old God tampering he's crossed a line that makes him a legitimate threat to everyone. The fact that the rebellion was starting already before he did this, though, is why I won't have anything to do with it. I won't aid in the Horde going back to being a reskinned Alliance who won't get anything interesting done. I certainly won't aid in a fool like Vol'jin becoming Warchief.

[Venziir]

To be honest, I loved Garrosh, and still do. Every in game quest where you help him, I've always felt he treated you with respect as a good and loyal soldier. I don't think he wants to eliminate or enslave all non orcs, even if he feels they're inferior. But like any leader, he isn't going to tolerate rebellion. I'd happily have fought for him against Vol'jin if the game gave me the chance, until Sylvanas showed up at least. My loyalty to her might be a little bit stronger. I don't think anything Garrosh did regarding the Alliance was wrong at all. They're his enemies, and he's doing what he can to take them down.

However, now he's getting involved with Old God corruption, willingly, and that's crossing the line. It's no better than getting involved with the Legion, maybe worse. I personally won't partake in his ousting, out of principle. But I admit that with his Old God tampering he's crossed a line that makes him a legitimate threat to everyone. The fact that the rebellion was starting already before he did this, though, is why I won't have anything to do with it. I won't aid in the Horde going back to being a reskinned Alliance who won't get anything interesting done. I certainly won't aid in a fool like Vol'jin becoming Warchief.

... He put a bounty on your head in Ashenvale, threatened to have you hurled off a cliff in Stonetalon, and all his actions against the trolls and the Alliance clearly shows that he wants to destroy everyone and everything that stands in his way - he even says so a billion times.

[Lynneiah]

I don't think anything Garrosh did regarding the Alliance was wrong at all. They're his enemies, and he's doing what he can to take them down.

The Horde and Alliance were in a cold war when Garrosh replaced Thrall. They weren't friends by any means, but they weren't at each others' throats either.
Then Garrosh came to power, singlehandedly decided 'I don't like the Alliance. I want to kill every single one of them' and proceeded to attempt genocide. I trust you know what genocide means? It's not just invading their lands and conquering them. It's not just fighting and defeating their armies. It's butchering every single man, woman and child, soldier and civilian alike, of a certain race, until they are wiped clean from existence. It's widely considered to be the most horrible thing that can be done. And that's exactly what Garrosh intended to do to the Alliance. Even the other leaders of the Horde were all 'erm, dude? No. That's just sick.'

If that's not crossing a line, then quite frankly you need your morals checked.

[Belisaurio]

They "ripped" that from you? No. They expanded the story and chose to do their own thing instead of doing the usual "orcs are evil, humans are good" thing. Besides, most people that play WoW (even back in Vanilla) had never played Warcraft 1 or 2, most of them had barely even played Warcraft 3, besides a few online fights or DOTA.

So, you agree they changed the new Horde from the old Horde, ergo, they ripped that from us (old players that pass wc1/2/3 and moved to wow). Of course they can do that, because it's His game. But we can't deny that Blizzard started something in WC1/2 and Grom's Horde in WC3, and they completly changed the gameplay and Horde paths in wow.
So, don't spect the old players to be in Thrall's side; we loved him in WC3 campaign (frostwolfs clan are amazing), but we are bored. If Blizzard create a new warmonger to lead the Horde, we want to be in his side, if the warmonger is a jerk, well, we only hope to have another warmonger to backstab the first one (something similar happened before), and the old players could help him doing that!! (again, we helped the backstaber before).
But the problem is we can't do that, the new horde are full of good guys. So we can only loot the bad guys and move on.

[Venziir]

So, you agree they changed the new Horde from the old Horde, ergo, they ripped that from us (old players that pass wc1/2/3 and moved to wow). Of course they can do that, because it's His game. But we can't deny that Blizzard started something in WC1/2 and Grom's Horde in WC3, and they completly changed the gameplay and Horde paths in wow.
So, don't spect the old players to be in Thrall's side; we loved him in WC3 campaign (frostwolfs clan are amazing), but we are bored. If Blizzard create a new warmonger to lead the Horde, we want to be in his side, if the warmonger is a jerk, well, we only hope to have another warmonger to backstab the first one (something similar happened before), and the old players could help him doing that!! (again, we helped the backstaber before).
But the problem is we can't do that, the new horde are full of good guys. So we can only loot the bad guys and move on.

What they started in Warcraft 1, was a complete Warhammer rip-off, with no originality or creativity.

Here's the thing (which for some reason is incredible hard to grasp) - in WoW YOU DON'T GET TO BE THE BAD GUY - you get to the heroes that save the planet. You will NEVER get to be the real bad guy (closest thing would be Death Knight 55-58), because that's not what Blizzard wants.

And "the Backstabber"? You mean Doomhammer? The "backstabbing" bit was retconned years ago, move on - if you can.

I played Warcraft 1 and 2 when they were new and fresh, and sure, playing semi-retarded orc grunts who wanted to "zug zug" everything was fun, but about as deep as dinner plate. With Warcraft 3 they went from "black and white" to "grey" - most people enjoy "grey" as it allows for something a lot more creative than just "kill kill kill" and "evil vs good".

Oh and "Grom's Horde"? Erm, you mean that ragtag band of demon junkie Warsong orcs? I'd hardly call that a Horde.

[Poodles]

So, you agree they changed the new Horde from the old Horde, ergo, they ripped that from us (old players that pass wc1/2/3 and moved to wow). Of course they can do that, because it's His game. But we can't deny that Blizzard started something in WC1/2 and Grom's Horde in WC3, and they completly changed the gameplay and Horde paths in wow.
So, don't spect the old players to be in Thrall's side; we loved him in WC3 campaign (frostwolfs clan are amazing), but we are bored. If Blizzard create a new warmonger to lead the Horde, we want to be in his side, if the warmonger is a jerk, well, we only hope to have another warmonger to backstab the first one (something similar happened before), and the old players could help him doing that!! (again, we helped the backstaber before).
But the problem is we can't do that, the new horde are full of good guys. So we can only loot the bad guys and move on.

No, they didn't change the paths at all. Might want to brush up on the Old Horde vs New Horde lore in the RTS games...

If you want the Old Horde, you want the horde that was under the control of the Burning Legion. Thrall's New Horde was never as warlike as the Old Horde. Hell, WC3 portrayed the Humans as far worse with Arthas' rise as the Lich King.

[Lynneiah]

But the problem is we can't do that, the new horde are full of good guys. So we can only loot the bad guys and move on.

What I really want is more morally grey characters on either side.