[Spoilers] Why is the horde killing the best warchief they have ever had?

[Seasz]

Garrosh is sort of like an azerothian hitler.

[2]

[Redmage]

The only people who it would make sense to be pro-Garrosh are orcs.

Any other race, or any orc who cares about the other races, would have to be brain damaged to side with him.

[Trassk]

Thralls Horde maybe, but that was never the real Horde.

The horde your thinking of died after doomhammer was defeated and his horde shattered.
This horde, with tauren, trolls, orcs, forsaken, blood elves and goblins, was built to survive. Garrosh simply tried to make this horde, into the horde only he understood, oh conquest and domination.
And now, the real horde (I am calling it here, the real horde is Thrall horde with the above races), are about to take it back from garrosh.

- - - Updated - - -

The new Horde may have been started by Thrall, but it was well on it's way of ending with him as well.

oh my god, you are pathetically desperate now.

[Deleted]

Even Blackhand was better than Garrosh, he managed to conquer Stormwind.

[Colonel Sandor]

Thrall's Horde was never meant to wipe out the Alliance. It was, as many other people posted, made to survive. Thrall wanted peace with the Alliance, but Varian and his arrogance refuse time and time again. Garrosh wants a evil, racist, warmonger Horde, which is not what Thrall's Horde is.

[Lastlivingsoul]

well thats your fault for betting on the wrong horse.

I agree with this guy,... finally.

Also if Thrall was "Hard" like Garrosh and truly believed that Every Human alive should be killed for being inferior then he would have never trusted the Nightelves or Jaina enough to stall Archimonde at Mount Hyjal and we would be under the Legion's boot by now.

Thrall has MUCH Bigger fish to dry than the Alliance. How about the Dreadlords and Pitlords who corrupted his best friend and enslaved his people. The real humans who actually imprisoned the Orcs in concentration camps were from Lorderon/Forsaken and he like a "Grown ass man" got over it and the Horde is stronger for it.

That is a Horse worth betting on.

[Zulkhan]

You are not a Blizzard employee, and are not part of their writing team. Fanfiction.net is ----> Thattaway.

Stop bringing your own wishfulfillment fantasies into discussions of actual ingame events.
Stop mentioning fanmade factions in the same breath as actually established ones.
Stop bringing roleplay which only a handful of people (assumedly) know about into the big picture under the assumption people have any clue what you're talking about.
Stop.

• Calia is not in-game. Until Blizzard decides to make her a character of any significance, she may as well not have ever existed in the first place.
• The remaining humans of Scarlet Crusade were utterly destroyed in Northrend. The Forsaken started their cleanup in Dragonblight, and the Ebon Blade finished the job in Icecrown. There is no Scarlet Dawn. Only the Fallen remain.
• Greenwood is merely the name of the pass that lead to Silvermoon and Quel'danas. This is now the Dead Scar. Any high elves that fought in defense of it are now either dead, undead, blood elf, or part of the Silver Covenant.
• Danath Trollbane is currently in Honor Hold; Hellfire Peninsula. Despite plenty rumors and faulty assumptions based on data mining, there are no announced plans by Blizzard doing anything with Danath or Stromgarde. Lawd almighty, I wish this wasn't the case, but it is.
• The 'Underworld' is a term no longer used for the Twisting Nether. You do not easily "return" from the Twisting Nether, since you'll be dead and not in possesion of a body that hosts your presence on the material plane. Unless you're a demon. Blizzard has announced no plans surrounding any demonisation or otherwise 'return' of Gul'dan.
• Zandalari are not corrupted to begin with. In actuality, they're in essence the most pure of all Trolls. They are far too proud to join a subgroup of trolls that already was too weak to survive alongside one of the first splinterfactions of the Zandalari; The Gurubashi.
• The island of Kezan is currently for a large portion cooled lava, smothering all buildings and machines to inoperability. There's little to retake and far more to rebuild, though obsidian is actually quite brittle to build on. Not that this would stop goblins.

Nothing you write makes sense. Even working under the assumption that you're roleplaying, every scenario you describe is flawed in some fashion. And even if you were roleplaying, you're on the wrong forum. And even if you were on the RIGHT forum, you're apparently living in an alternate reality of Azeroth, where it is your personal playground where you can decide what is canon and what is not.

Just.
Mothertruckin'.
Stop.

Best post of the summer.

[Chonar]

I think now I understand you, I never thought that my continued pro-Alliance proclamations full of fantasy might offend / annoy someone (especially regarding serious subjects).
I am fully aware that my "stories" are not canonical (although I wish they were) and I regret that it seems I take them so. I intend to create some fantasy that inspires the minds of the people of the Alliance in particular.
In short, what I want is to encourage people to imagine their own stories to fill the gaps in the lore of Blizzard and together we can create a better Warcraft universe (and perhaps maybe someday get the attention of Blizzard itself).
If sometimes it seems that I'm attempting to impose my ideas or taking them fully for granted I apologize for it. I will try to give special emphasis to my roleplaying comments.
Thanks for your answers.

+respect for listening and understanding. Good man.

Now on the flipside (being Alliance myself), I actually would very much like the return of Danath, reclaiming of Stromgarde, and using it as a foothold to assault Lordaeron. When the Shattering happened, I was amazed to see that of all the Eastern Kingdoms, Arathi Highlands was the one zone almost virtually untouched. Hardly a difference to be found, other than the Forsakenification of Galen Trollbane and other minor bits and pieces. This lead me to believe that this zone was being saved for something bigger; Why revamp a zone if you're gonna change it all up again (relatively) soon(tm) again?

Now that after next patch the "humans vs orcs" war will simmer down a bit again, we can hopefully start going back to "alliance vs horde". Many loose ends in Eastern Kingdoms, and since a lot of stuff happened on Kalimdor during MoP, it seems appropriate to me that next expansion, things would start to happen in the Eastern Kingdoms instead. They did say MoP was the calm before the storm... and with an *assault on Orgrimmar and defeat of a dictatorified racial leader*, thats a pretty intense 'calm'.

With that said, I return to the original topic at hand;

How will the Horde vs Aliance war properly flare up again, if Garrosh is replaced? IF INDEED MoP was the 'calm before the storm',. and I do believe this was said in regards to the Horde VS Alliance conflict, not the greater conflict that Wrathion is preparing us for (heyoooo Sageras), it would make sense to me that a fluctuation in the Horde's power structure would push Sylvanas even further in pursueing her own goals without fear of in-Horde ramifications. Garrosh fcked up on a bunch of things, but he did have the right idea in having an overseer keep tabs no Josie and the Pussyc--.. I mean, Sylvie and the Valkyries.

[Deleted]

Did Thrall make everyone a huge softie towards alliance or something? Back when the horde was first made something like the destruction of theramore would be celebrated, not cause an uproar within the horde...

"Back when the Horde was first made..."

You mean the one that papa Gul'Dan established to fulfill his personal lust for power at the expense of orcish freedom and ecosystems of Draenor itself?

The one that the orcs were fooled into so that papa Gul'Dan could scavenge the Azerothian ocean bottom in search for baubles of ultimate power?

My only surprise lies in the fact that 'only' so much orcs decided to raise their hands against their warchief, given that many of them managed to preserve knowledge about what they have lost in order for this war machine to be originally assembled and set into motion.

[Claymore]

Even though there are a ton of reasons to want to kill Garrosh, I personally think it would be a poor choice. It would be like Geoffrey getting killed right away; sure, it's what you *want*, but it's not necessarily what's best for the story. I mean, if Garrosh dies, when what do we *REALLY* have to show for the past two expansions? Like him or not, Garrosh is the only real progression we've seen since the end of Wrath, and killing him off, while tempting, would be doing a huge disservice to the writers, the fans, the fiction, and even Grom Hellscream himself (since his sacrifice would have been completely in vain).

Instead, I'd like to see Garrosh given life beyond this raid. Maybe he awakens from the Sha of Pride's grip, and is imprisoned for the rest of his days. Maybe he's sent back to Nagrang, tail between his legs, left to wallow in shame, this time not for his father's actions but for his own. Hell, maybe he sacrifices himself for the sake of honor, or maybe the complete inverse and opens a portal to a new Legion world in a vain attempt to kill the leaders of this "rebellion".

Whatever the case may be, killing Garrosh would only trivialize the past 3-4 years we'll have put into the game since Wrath ended, making it not just an empty gesture, but an act of regression.

[Belisaurio]

The horde your thinking of died after doomhammer was defeated and his horde shattered.
This horde, with tauren, trolls, orcs, forsaken, blood elves and goblins, was built to survive. Garrosh simply tried to make this horde, into the horde only he understood, oh conquest and domination.
And now, the real horde (I am calling it here, the real horde is Thrall horde with the above races), are about to take it back from garrosh.

I completely agree with that but True Horde. It depend of the horde that you like more, If you like the first bloodthirsty horde, then you want to be tagged the true horde, but it's completely subjective, so I can say that Thrall's Horde is the only real one. For me, it should be the Horde from WC1, but that is because I'm nostalgic and I enjoyed to be the conqueror and not the defender/survivor (this is why I don't liked the Horde in WC2 early campaigns).

But Garrosh with his bipolar-mind should be ripped out or changed completely If he want survive in the "new horde".
So c'ya!!! mr. Garrosh!!, you gave the old players something to laugh and was cool when we started thinking about the old horde again, but the fantasy is over and now we are going to kill that baddie, collect his loot and move on.

[Deleted]

Even the Old Horde was not created for that purpose. The Horde predates the opening of the Dark Portal, and was forged by Gul'dan as a way to better control all the orcish (and later even ogre) clans during the war with the Draenei. Blackhand was named the first Warchief, and was merely a puppet of Gul'dan.

The Horde was forged by Ner'zhul for Kil'jaeden who used the Horde to wipe out the Draenei and then use them to invade Azeroth to weaken the land for the next Burning Legion Invasion.

[Deleted]

Whatever the case may be, killing Garrosh would only trivialize the past 3-4 years we'll have put into the game since Wrath ended, making it not just an empty gesture, but an act of regression.

Actually I take the opposite view.

Garrosh's introduction and development itself has regressed the story.

When WC3 (and later wow) launched the Horde was changed forever thanks to Thrall, and imo it was much better because of it.

It still kicked ass, it still had attitude, but it had more than just generic evil "orc smash!", it also had "strength and honour".

Then we met the whiny brat in Outland. Garrosh was the very guy who had screwed everything up for Mag'har and when we come along to help him we got nothing but crap from him.

Now after all these years of screwing up the Horde and regressed the faction back removing years of development, he's going down, and it couldn't be more welcome.

I just wish that with this blizz finally puts to bed the notion that all the Horde are good for is creating raid bosses (and along with it all the Alliance being good for is creating neutral heroes)

[Deleted]

Another Garrosh fanboy. Sigh.

Some people just want to see the world burn.

[Deleted]

Another Garrosh fanboy. Sigh.

Some people just want to see the world burn.

Wasn't there a short story titled "Blank Scroll" [or something] posted on WoW website which implied that Garrosh's hypothetical triumph over every other race and nation would inevitably lead to full cessation of all Azerothian life and existence at the hands of the Burning Legion?

[docterfreeze]

Another Garrosh fanboy. Sigh.

Some people just want to see the alliance burn.

Fixed your post, hope you enjoy.

[Deleted]

[Spoilers] They are not, They are killing a warchief at the level of insanity of Gul'dan who would gladly kill 99% of all orcs in order to win, he would happily Use slaves, and Terror in order to win. So they are not, Thrall is still alive, so they are not killing the best warchief they ever had, They are killing the 2 and the worst

[Frozenbeef]

Before the horde/ burning legion the orcs were scattered tribes of peaceful shamans/ hunters thrall was trying to return the horde to that peaceful time ...garrosh however was trying to return the horde to when it was influenced by gul'dan / the burning legion.

I actually would prefer a more savage horde rather than their peaceful ancestors so garrosh gains my support, we allready have an entire faction of noble knights,tree lovers and puppy dogs it would be much more entertaining to have clashing forces causing conflict rather than everyone getting along >.<

[Deleted]

[Spoilers] They are not, They are killing a warchief at the level of insanity of Gul'dan who would gladly kill 99% of all orcs in order to win, he would happily Use slaves, and Terror in order to win. So they are not, Thrall is still alive, so they are not killing the best warchief they ever had, They are killing the 2 and the worst

Except Gul'Dan wasn't insane - just enough morally corrupt and simultaneously literal minded to doom entire race worth of his brethren for his own gain while disregarding any chance of there being a puppetmaster behind his own desires.

Garrosh - on the other hand [and here comes what I genuinely consider to be bad storytelling ]- had multiple occasions where others were willing to show him the fine path while he was eager to learn:

TBC: Shaken and depressed Garrosh happily accepts lecture on how his lineage does NOT make him predestined to be consumed by bloodlust and warmongering;

WotLK: Seeking to wipe out Alliance from Northrend as a priority move over defeating common foe, Garrosh is nevertheless lectured by Saurfang on error of his ways and Garrosh is an active listener!

-inbetween- Garrosh is tutored by Thrall himself on how the new Horde is supposed to function and coexist with this world.

Cataclysm: Seeking to exterminate all the Alliance-aligned beings on Kalimdor, Garrosh nevertheless PERSONALLY asks a grief-stricken Tauren chieftain to TEACH him the art of being able to forgive and respect life without carelessly throwing it out over military agenda.

Now: Garrosh is actively seeking to exterminate all of Alliance-aligned beings on both continents and beyond.
[as a food for thought: even the EVIL, demon-enslaved first Horde accepted the surrender of Alterac kingdom and allowed them to live... even if only for some time. Garrosh doesn't allow even a single human to be spared.]

Garrosh seems to have a dire learning problem.

[seije]

for those of you who think Garrosh is the better warchief:

If Garrosh had been the one to lead the orcs across the sea to kalimdor, he wouldn't have allied with vol'jin and brought trolls into the horde. Tauren would have been either enslaved as payment for Garrosh's help, or ignored completey (and then killed off by the centaur). The undead would NEVER have made it into the horde, as Garrosh views the undead as abominations. And without the undead, the blood elves would have no ties to the horde, no one to get their foot in the door. It is also unlikely that the goblins would have been rescued, and like the tauren would probably be enslaved even if they were. All in all, the horde would be orcs only, and every other 'horde' race would be either extinct, enslaved, or separate mini-factions (with the exception of MAYBE the BEs and undead.)

And that's even assuming that Archimonde would still be defeated at the battle for mount hyjal, when the alliance, horde, and night elves all banded together for the sake of Azeroth.



now, has he put the 'war' back in warcraft? sure, you could say that (even though there's plenty of war between both factions and the Big Bad's Armies of each expac). He may make things more interesting for the player, but for the actual inhabitants of Azeroth, he is a terrible leader that would clearly fail, and drag down all those around him as well.