View Poll Results: Do You think Chris Metzen will do what he said in that tweet?

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  • Yes

    112 18.27%
  • No

    402 65.58%
  • Maybe

    99 16.15%
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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Chriz will come to Blizzcom with a shirt with a aliance logo, shouting something silly like "for the alliance" promissing stuff.

    Ohh wait that already happened.
    Maybe this time around he won't do that while carrying a Doomhammer. A man can dream...

    Anyway, this thread has gone in circles. I think we've presented our grievances enough times, and I'm extremely happy I have a few people who posted here ignored otherwise I'm pretty sure this thread would have been at least two pages longer by now. We should probably let it rest and hope and pray the patch after SoO and before the next expansion isn't just Horde's Next Top Model-- I mean, Warchief. Blizzard has one last chance to throw the Alliance a bone. Sadly, I'm not very hopeful for that...
    Trying to argue anything with any sort of nuance over Twitter is the intellectual equivalent of trying to trying to squeeze a cow through a keyhole. Sure, you might even be able to do it with enough brute force, and whatever comes out the other side might even still be considered to be "cow" in the technical sense, but it will be so mangled as to be completely unrecognizable.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Maybe this time around he won't do that while carrying a Doomhammer. A man can dream...

    Anyway, this thread has gone in circles. I think we've presented our grievances enough times, and I'm extremely happy I have a few people who posted here ignored otherwise I'm pretty sure this thread would have been at least two pages longer by now. We should probably let it rest and hope and pray the patch after SoO and before the next expansion isn't just Horde's Next Top Model-- I mean, Warchief. Blizzard has one last chance to throw the Alliance a bone. Sadly, I'm not very hopeful for that...
    Agreed, mod closing incoming please
    Quote Originally Posted by Standsinfire View Post
    Me: whyumad* fixed. Seriously though, it's only because they rapin' eveerbody in here and I don't want you to be snatched out yo' windows.
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    If that were my dog, I'd Hulk Smash the fuck out of that raccoon.
    Or I'd shit my pants.

  3. #623
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    I actually thought about going to the next Blizzcon, but I really don't think I'd feel welcome (or safe) because I'm a non-heterosexual Alliance player.
    Well, you can join the horde, and join us in our campaign to free azeroth from the church of holy nothingness, since humans seems to believe in... nothing at all, seriously, night elves believes in something more solid then they do.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    Anyway that's all speculative. With the status quo we have now, the Nelves should have the upper hand in Kalimdor. Being Horde in Kalimdor forests should feel like being American in the 1960's Vietnamese jungle- no surge should be able to overcome the fact that these are immortal warriors who have been intimately familiar with these forests for thousands of years. To the point the forests of Kalimdor should inspire dread in the Horde- who would prefer to march through Sillithis, Uldum, and Tanaris aand the Thousand needles rather than cut through Feralas to get to Mulgore. Conversely, though, the Horde would enjoy relative strength and safety on the open plains and deserts with no comparable open-field army in Kalimdor to challenge them.
    I love the way you think. This is spot on. Each side has their strengths and weaknesses and it would be nice to see that played up.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I certainly got that from looking at it from a broad view. The pandaren and what happens in pandaria with the sha and the vale is the example the idiocy of war and how it causes nothing but misery.
    But of course nobody cares about that shit, its all about who wins in the end. And when blizzard tells us its not about who wins in the end, its about what we've learned from this and how the horrors of war does bad things.. nobody understands, they didn't learn anything and just wants there side to win.

    Edit: Ironically, Deleth serves as just such an example above this.
    And here we have Trassk coming up with some very, very lame excuses for the whole thing. First of all this is a game, it's for entertainment and going with the whole "We just want to teach people something!" excuse is pretty lame. Not that they're not in the position to teach us anything, nor do they even have the right to attempt so, it in general makes for very bad stories and is extremly poorly done in WoW if it were really their intent.
    They glorify war as long as it's against neutral/villanious factions, they even reward us with shiny loot, gold, titles and awesome mounts for our exploits. When was the last time we sat down with a villain and solved the whole issue using diplomacy? Even in the inter faction war the war was usually shown as "awesome" and "glorified" as long as it came to the Horde.
    There wasn't a single time when I was chided, my action were shown as wrong or the Alliance was presented to me as anything but people whom we can kill without a second thought. During Cataclysm the Orcs ran wild in Ashenvale slaughtering everyone they could get their hands on, the forsaken did similar atrocities (alongside experimenting and torturing prisonders and following a genocidal campaign) and attacked a completly neutral county back then.
    All the stuff we did back then was shown as JUSTIFIED and RIGHT and at no points they had ANY KIND OF CONSEQUENCES this went so far as that the Argent Crusade and Circle of Cenarius were sitting right by as we re blighted the cleansed plague lands, slaughtered people left and right and turned them into undead. The only one to ever call Sylvannas out was GARROSH!

    But as soon as Blizzard is forced to notice that the whole point thing has leaned too much into one direction and they should try to at least get it to where it is somewhat balanced again they take out the big "WAR IS EVIL nkay" stick and happily start beating up on the players, the Alliance players that is. Because their supposed victories are shown as moraly grey and only theirs for that matter and usually cost them as much as they gain. Tell me, why exactly does the faction who was at the receiving end of Garrosh aggression and got steamrolled in Cataclysm ends up having to be "taught a lesson" and take most of the losses this time around aswell?

    Hell, we don't even lose ANY of the gains we've made during Cataclysm while also getting to put blame solely with Garrosh. After doing exactly what Garrosh wanted and commiting all this stuff some even without him asking, like wiping out Nijels Point, we get to blame Garrosh for all the wrongdoings of the Horde and point fingers at the Alliance for not being "moraly superior" during Dalaran.

    This makes no sense whatsoever and is completly idiotic. It's like the Nazis being allowed to keep all their conquests, the British and Americans apologizing and then going back to their respective countries so the Nazis can rebuild for the next war while also holding the moral high ground because 5 minutes before the war would've ended they decided to off Hitler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Amazing how the level of Metzen hatred goes, to the point of ignore that he created the Warcraft universe and 90% of its lore. And that he less involved with Warcraft story writing than he was before.
    Story existed before him, whole thing was stolen from Warhammer in the beginning and even planned as a Warhammer franchise game.

    Quote Originally Posted by composemail View Post
    As a openly horde biased player, openly disgruntled with this whole SoO affair, accepting that it is taking place I'm even more disappointed that the Horde won't be suffering any of the logical conquences of an alliance occupation and strategic upper hand. Because it ruins the verisimilitude of it all; it shatters my suspension of disbelief. I like Garrosh, and seing him go makes me sad; but seeing the Alliance take Orgrimmar, then just shrig and leave it snaps me out of my immersion entirely. I can literally see a giant hand of mandatory gameplay balance restoring the status quo.

    I'm not saying that the status quo and gameplay concerns aren't valid- I'm saying the plot should detour around pitfalls like that, rather than just careen straight into it, then reset itself.
    I'm a Horde player myself, I have exactly one Alliance char solely for seeing both sides and ganking on my server since the Alliance has long since died out around here. The problem for me is, non of this makes any sense. They beat up on the wrong faction with the "War is bad stick" while we get to keep everything and GAIN even more so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The problem is, what constitutes a victory? Something seen in game? Because if that's the case, then yes the Alliance has been shafted quite a bit in that sense. But only because the last time Blizzard tried to set things in stone by showing them in game (Cataclysm), people not only complained because the world they remembered was taken away from them, but also because Alliance victories were ignored. The Alliance pushed all the way through Dustwallow Marsh and into the Southern Barrens, sacked Taurajo and created an entire zone that was once Horde only into a contested zone. Mulgore would have been next if the Tauren hadn't seen it coming and built the Great Wall of Mulgore, which in many ways was a massive loss for the Tauren.
    There's several problems with all of this, first of all there were no real Alliance victories during Cataclysm, just some times they temporarily did not lose. Also every single last "victory" they had was done before players enter the fray, they were off screen with the players not being involved in them in any kind of way.
    While other things such as the battle for Andorhal were ingame and often lost for no apparent reason aside from Thassarian wanting to go after his girlfriend instead of standing and fighting and the forsaken just whipping out the Valkyr as a deus ex machina to win the day when Kolthiras nearly made us lose.

    The same goes for wiping out the Stormpikes, for destroying Nijels point, for blowing up that Druid school in Stonetalon Mountain and so on and on. Our "victories" are actually shown to us, by that time the Alliance has either been told they lost or already moved on to the next zone and never even gets to know that all their efforts were in vain and they were curbstomped by us once more.

    And you mention Southern Barrens, I think you will be happy to hear that in lore all the Alliance troops there are dead/defeated and gone. In lore we won in Southern Barrens and drove the Alliance back, in lore we defeated the guerilla Worgen and did some other stuff. The problem here is, they refuse to even acknowledge the Alliance victory in lore without depicting it in game. Which means we will keep half of Ashenvale, we will keep the entirety of Stonetalon Mountains, we will keep every single last gain we made despite apparently losing the war.

    I will give you Stonard. Stonard was fully assaulted and the Alliance were winning that battle. Why they didn't phase Stonard and make it so it at least LOOKED destroyed after the quest was done is beyond me. Ashenvale, however, was well done if you ask me. The Horde has long been pushing into Ashenvale, even under Thrall's rule. It makes sense that a lot of the zone would be Horde controlled at this point, especially so close to Orgrimmar.
    It's just as close to Teldrassil and the Exodar and Nelf coreland for that matter. The problem here is that for once the Alliance story line takes place AFTER the Horde one. They basically drive us back over half the zone. The problem here again is, there's no phasing. There's one quest where you first come in and wipe out some Horde demolishers and troops attacking an Alliance outpost. You beat them back, but as soon as the phasing is done everything goes back to how it was before you came and you have those Horde demolishers eternally firing at the Alliance base, it just serves to show that Blizzard simply can't be bothered.

    But then I constantly hear about Southshore, and how it's destruction went 'unopposed.' Yeah, it went unopposed in the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, which has long since been getting dominated by the Blood Elves and Forsaken. But your push into the Southern Barrens is easily something that opposes, if not completely nullifies that point. One city in a contested zone which had maybe six quests in return for an entire HALF of a zone which actually was used for questing!
    Actually the Alliance did have quite a few quests in that zone and it served as hub for the entire Northern Easter Kingdoms. With it gone it actually is an extremly big hassle to get up there for the other quests, but apparently Blizzard didn't care about that.

    The big problem here is that Southshore is an very iconic city. Back during Classic there was constant warfare between Southshore and Tarrens Mill between the players. It's why so many players remember both or at least their faction city very fondly. So losing this city off-screen must've hurt players who've been around long enough, losing it to the Horde on top of that must've been a knee to the groin for them. I know how I'd react if we had lost Tarrens Mill in a similar faction.

    And again you bring up the Southern Barrens, we won that in lore and got it back. The Alliance did not.

    But yet these victories are constantly ignored and passed aside like they didn't happen. Which leads me to believe it's NOT just being shown in game that matters. So what constitutes a victory? Slaughtering thousands? Razing cities to the ground? Being the more level-headed faction, or the other way around and NOT being the more level-headed faction? No matter what the Alliance does, they are supposedly ALWAYS on the losing side. This is why I have trouble taking Alliance seriously.
    Oh please. The problem here is that Alliance isn't winning anything at all. What does constitute to a victory? Us nuking the entirety of Theramore, another very long standing and history rich Alliance city. Us driving the Alliance back from Andorhal. Us pretty much taking the entirety of Stonetalon Mountains and so on and on and on.
    And the biggest part of this is depiction IN GAME, our victories and even small wins usually are shown. Just go to the Howling Fjord where we get to drive away an entire Alliance fleet and slaughter the survivors of another fleet that was previously smashed off screen.
    Last edited by Deleth; 2013-08-09 at 03:20 AM.

  6. #626
    As long as any real victory isn't shown in-game, the alliance won't be happy. And rightfully so. Not hard to empathize with tbh

  7. #627
    Quickly browsed the thread and my first thought is.... who cares, just enjoy the damn game.

    Story existed before him, whole thing was stolen from Warhammer in the beginning and even planned as a Warhammer franchise game.
    So Warcraft was inspired partially by warhammer...and warhammer is inspired by what? There is nothing new to see here, everything that has ever been has been inspired by something else.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkstarG View Post
    So Warcraft was inspired partially by warhammer...and warhammer is inspired by what? There is nothing new to see here, everything that has ever been has been inspired by something else.
    It wasn't criticism, the whole game was meant to be part of the Warhammer franchise afterall and it just didn't work out, maybe for the better. It's just to rebuke the whole Chris Metzen = Warcraft argument.

  9. #629
    warhammer is way over the top anyway :P
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  10. #630
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    As long as any real victory isn't shown in-game, the alliance won't be happy. And rightfully so. Not hard to empathize with tbh
    While I dislike this trend, I ultimately feel like if the Alliance get a novel soon and maybe a short story I'll be quite content with the Alliance story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkstarG View Post
    Quickly browsed the thread and my first thought is.... who cares, just enjoy the damn game.
    This makes no sense. People are saying they don't find the story fun. The story is part of the game.
    If you are not interested in the story of an RPG then fine. But it annoys me that people post stuff like this as there are people out there who play the game mostly for the story.

  11. #631
    Banned But I Hate You All's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkstarG View Post
    Quickly browsed the thread and my first thought is.... who cares, just enjoy the damn game.



    So Warcraft was inspired partially by warhammer...and warhammer is inspired by what? There is nothing new to see here, everything that has ever been has been inspired by something else.
    Ummm probably the faction being left high and dry

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    It wasn't criticism, the whole game was meant to be part of the Warhammer franchise afterall and it just didn't work out, maybe for the better. It's just to rebuke the whole Chris Metzen = Warcraft argument.
    What comes from the Warhammer past of Warcraft, the orcs are green. That's pretty much it.

    Heck, one of the most intelligent beings in Warcraft history appears in Warcraft I for the first time, the Warlock Gul'dan, contradicting the idea of "dumb" orcs of Warhammer.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    What comes from the Warhammer past of Warcraft, the orcs are green. That's pretty much it.

    Heck, one of the most intelligent beings in Warcraft history appears in Warcraft I for the first time, the Warlock Gul'dan, contradicting the idea of "dumb" orcs of Warhammer.
    You are completly missing the point, on purpose I assume.

  14. #634
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verash View Post
    actually what we are doing is helping the horde free orgrimmar from a tyrant who has gone mad with power.
    but the alliance are doing it if you follow the lore.

    But I guess that is not enough for an alliance player I guess.

  15. #635
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    Bring Turalyon back.

    He could jump through a portal in siege of orgrimmar and whack garrosh across the face with a hammer, killing him outright, and maintaining his reputation for defeating warchiefs.

    That should make Alliance happy.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by T Man View Post
    but the alliance are doing it if you follow the lore.

    But I guess that is not enough for an alliance player I guess.
    is this confirmed by blizzard? if so, i'd love to see the source. (not trying to be snarky or rude, i simply haven't heard if this was clearly stated by bliz).

    As of now, i have serious doubts to this as it's not Varian we see in the final fight, but Thrall. I find it hard to believe the Alliance will get credit when a horde-originated neutral character (and potentially a returning-horde character) is the only named NPC present (KO'd, but present) at the final fight. Maybe they somehow will show proof of an alliance lore-kill in the cutscene for his death, but i would think that if alliance heroes were meant to get the kill, they would have been part of the fight.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by seije View Post
    As of now, i have serious doubts to this as it's not Varian we see in the final fight, but Thrall. I find it hard to believe the Alliance will get credit when a horde-originated neutral character (and potentially a returning-horde character) is the only named NPC present (KO'd, but present) at the final fight. Maybe they somehow will show proof of an alliance lore-kill in the cutscene for his death, but i would think that if alliance heroes were meant to get the kill, they would have been part of the fight.
    The Alliance got Lei-Shen - or should if they got Jainas staff powered up.

    Overall, I think the story works better if the horde gets to kill Garrosh. If anything, I'd prefer Varian to actively turn down the chance to meet Garrosh in battle again.

    EJL

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The Alliance got Lei-Shen - or should if they got Jainas staff powered up.

    Overall, I think the story works better if the horde gets to kill Garrosh. If anything, I'd prefer Varian to actively turn down the chance to meet Garrosh in battle again.

    EJL
    It's gotta be Jaina, or else it won't have any meaning. As much as MoP has been about Anduin and Varian, it's also been about Jaina and walking down the path she chose, the path that Garrosh chose and the path that Varian nearly chose. There is a certain symbolism about MoP's story, where Varian struggled and eventually succeeded going down a path closer to what Shaohao sought. Garrosh is the example of what happens when someone fails that path, he struggled with the choice as well, only he failed. Jaina has yet to make the choice, and it makes sense that she is the one to choose.

  19. #639
    Field Marshal Talisman's Avatar
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    I am what most of you would call a noob. Started that game around 8 months ago. Been hooked by the story ever since. Between my work and my free time I try to catch up on the lore through YouTube videos. I am a Night Elf zealot or nationalist if you will. Fascinated by 'dem' tree-hugers. But playing through the Alliance Lore in MoP and going through Horde Lore on Youtube I realized the following:

    - The Orcs are on the short end of the stick as they are new comers to Azeroth. Even with Thrall, they should not be calling the shots in Azeroth. As any political minority, they should be hosted by the natives and not be the 'hosters' so to speak. As a result, Horde land expansion (for balance purposes) should not come at the hands of the Orcs, in general, but through already established nations that form the horde, Tauren for example and NOT at the expense of the Night Elves and the alliance maybe more around Taurn lands for example and into neutral territories.

    - Moreover, seeing how the Orcs have been reunited by Thrall and just freed from the BL, it is in their nature to have less land on Azeroth and not as much and their nature is a product of the story tellers. Politically, it makes no sense unless they're Nazi Germany in the early stages of WWII.

    - Coming to the Taurens, I do not understand the logic behind them joining the horde just because thrall taxied them through some centaurs. Turen love the Earth Mother, Orcs have no allegiance to it. They keep eating trees. They seem to have more in common with Nelves than Orcs seeing how they fought in the war of the ancients as well along side the Nelves.

    - From what I saw, I agree that the Alliance is being neglected in-game. I went through some territories on my main (90) and then researched them online and I realized that what was Horde controlled is actually Alliance land. Then again, it all falls through into balance, which actually is not viable because the history of some races does not allow balance by nature.

    - Varian is the stupidest military leader if the current story line holds true for the coming patch. To beat a nation you do not fight it head on, but you let it's different constituents fight each other; thus, making it collapse on itself. There is no point in helping the horde defeat Garrosh by spilling alliance blood without gaining strategically. Giving back Ogrimmar is militarily stupid and if you bring up the balance argument again, Then I say the story is badly conceived and makes the Alliance look like boy scouts. This is utterly stupid. No land will be even recovered.

    - I went through the Thrall quests in Hyjal only to end up seeing him getting married. The goal behind it was to have me sympathize with him I assume and to be honest, I was annoyed. Here I am slaving to save the Orc whose Horde occupied most of my lands and is killing my people in Ashenvale. His Horde or Garrosh's doesn't matter. Orc is Orc. The point is, Thrall is not saving the world out of nobility, Thrall is saving the only world he knows which gives him no other choice. There is no nobility in it. To me he symbolizes hypocrisy.

    Same applies for Hordies questing in the Firelands with Malfurion. We have common grounds on saving the world an yet alliance keeps losing land. Just doesn't add up.

    - Another point undermining the Alliance and that is internally. One scenario in Pandaria ends with Varian, MR. Anger Management, schooling Tyrande, who was brought out to look like a rookie, in military affairs. Tyrande is ancient. She was around long before Varian's great great great great great great great great ... great [...] granddaddy as a seamen ever existed. She fought and defeated the BL twice and won. I do not see why Nelves could be so undermined and Humans are so overused in the Alliance.

    Just a few feelings on the story so far. Hope you were'nt bored.
    Last edited by Talisman; 2013-08-14 at 08:13 AM.

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