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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    With 5 BoG stacks we are at (assuming ~50% mastery, buffed, which will be reachable next tier with haste cap too )
    (711 + 8.19% * SP)*7
    4977 + 57.33% * SP
    ^ is the HoT tick.
    For a 300k tick you would need ~515k Spell Power.
    Spell Power is half of the paladins attack power.
    That means this would need ~1M Attack power.
    My math is really terrible so please correct me in case I made any mistakes:

    711 + 8.19% * SP is the base value for EF at one HP.
    So shouldn't it be 711 + 8,19 % * SP * 3 * 2 (for EF selfcast) * 2.6 (for 5 BoG Stacks)
    In which case we'd need roughly 440k AP (which translates to about 350k vengeance) to get 220k SP to reach the 300k HoT.
    That's a 300k Hot every ~1.8-1.9 seconds.
    Sacred Shield would absorb roughly 180k every 3.8 seconds at the same Spellpower value.

    So we're comparing a 300k hot every ~1.9 seconds to a 180k absorb every 3.8 seconds.

    How do we ever reach 50% Mastery, by the way? Wouldn't that require 25k Mastery on top of the.. what.. 22k(?) Haste we need to reach the Haste cap.
    Last edited by Snuzzfizzle; 2013-08-06 at 09:04 PM.

  2. #62
    o_O

    Let's see this again:

    ~30% mastery seems alright if we haste-cap first, extra 40% healing / BoG stacks. We have 50% + 10% Spell haste.

    Then we are at:

    [ 711 + 8.19% of Spell Power ] +100% + BoG * 40% + 10% SoI bonus / HoPo used
    Every 3/1.6 = 1.875 s + spell-haste buff

    3 BoG:
    [ 711 + 8.19% of Spell Power ] *2 *2.2 *1.1 / HP
    [ 711 + 8.19% of Spell Power ] *4.84 / HP
    3441 + 39.64% SP / HP
    10323 + 118.92% SP / 3HP

    5 BoG:
    [ 711 + 8.19% of Spell Power ] *2 *3 *1.1 / HP
    [ 711 + 8.19% of Spell Power ] *6.6 / HP
    4693 + 54.05% SP / HP
    14078 + 162.16% SP / 3HP

    vs.

    Sacred Shield: (every 6/1.6 = 3.75s )
    (343 + 117% * SP)*0.7
    240 + 81.9% SP

    This looks bad... the raw output of a 5BoG EF is ~4 times bigger than that of SS. ( If I didn't messed up this somewhere again. ) Even with a terrible overheal-rate this might be worth it. But I'm not sure about the 3 BoG vs 5 BoG one... how much of the additional HPS would be lost? Although, obviously, this might be changed dynamically, depending on the incoming damage.

    AP / SS* / 3BoG / 5BoG
    100k: 41.2; 69.5; 95.1;
    150k: 61.7; 99.2; 135.6;
    200k: 82.1; 128.9; 176.2;
    250k: 102.6; 158.6; 216.7;
    300k: 123.1; 188.4; 257.3;
    (*SS 'ticks' are twice as long! )

    PS: If this goes live like this, then it will be nerfed hard.

  3. #63
    It's more or less like that.

    I took my stats from Live and toyed around a bit to see what they would look like, and at the moment SS vs EF are at 28k vs 35k HPS, assuming 100k SP and 3 stacks of BoG. This was done with 17,58% mastery and 43,76% spell haste. EF already pulls ahead on HPs alone, but when you take into account overhealing it becomes incredibly less efficient, while SS gets untouched.
    On the PTR, same stats, I'm getting 19,6k (SS) vs 49k (EF) HPS. Yeah, the overhealing still is a problem, but if this is the result, it will pull ahead by a large margin. You need to be at over 50% overhealing for SS to become more efficient. I don't know how often you're topped off tbh, it looks like EF will be really stronger.

    The "good" news are that EF seems to pull ahead even in respect to the live version of SS. With 49k HPS vs 28k HPS of the current SS, we're still looking at a 30% margin.
    It will all depend on how much of it is overhealing. If it had an absorption effect when you're full, like WoG had in the past, it would already be better right now.

    Also, the higher your Mastery goes, the more EF gains over SS. At 30%, that 49k becomes 59k. Three times SS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  4. #64
    Quick Q re: EF - can the ticks crit, and/or if the initial cast crits, do the ticks scale off of THAT value?

    I've honestly never played Holy, nor used EF ever, so I didn't check those details. Not that it would be game-breaking, in terms of us stacking Crit, but it would mean that EF scales with haste, mastery AND crit, versus SS only scaling with haste.

    I guess the issue is that, unless you're just NOT tanking, SS overheal is extremely low. Even with EF givign a raw healing output of 3x SS, you're going to have a lot of time intervals where that healing (from EF) is 50-100% overheal. This is from both outside assistance AND SOI healing.

    Now, what's interesting is that you could lower the overheal issue by using BH glyph...but with that nerfed to shit, I don't think that'd really be worth much now

    I'm still not sold at all on EF > SS, purely on nature of absorbs and the fact that EF is just sniping heals that would/should be covered anyway. I can see it's use in certain high-sustained damage situations where its overheal values will be low, but thus far in MoP, we haven't had much of that. Plus the whole "opportunity cost" of not using a ShotR (t16 bonus notwithstanding).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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    20k and counting...

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Quick Q re: EF - can the ticks crit, and/or if the initial cast crits, do the ticks scale off of THAT value?

    I've honestly never played Holy, nor used EF ever, so I didn't check those details. Not that it would be game-breaking, in terms of us stacking Crit, but it would mean that EF scales with haste, mastery AND crit, versus SS only scaling with haste.

    I guess the issue is that, unless you're just NOT tanking, SS overheal is extremely low. Even with EF givign a raw healing output of 3x SS, you're going to have a lot of time intervals where that healing (from EF) is 50-100% overheal. This is from both outside assistance AND SOI healing.

    Now, what's interesting is that you could lower the overheal issue by using BH glyph...but with that nerfed to shit, I don't think that'd really be worth much now

    I'm still not sold at all on EF > SS, purely on nature of absorbs and the fact that EF is just sniping heals that would/should be covered anyway. I can see it's use in certain high-sustained damage situations where its overheal values will be low, but thus far in MoP, we haven't had much of that. Plus the whole "opportunity cost" of not using a ShotR (t16 bonus notwithstanding).

    Eternal Flame ticks can crit.

  6. #66
    I can't really see us ever wanting to choose an outright heal & then HoT, EF over an absorb, especially considering how the healing vs absorb system has been working this expansion. Just look at how well disc priests are doing on meters in comparison to other specs because of this. Absorbs can completely negate the need to actually heal, meaning less stress on your healers, meaning the rest of the raid will also be topped thanks to SS, as oppose to using EF.

    A healers not going to wait & see if you EF, they're going to top you off again, whilst you're getting heals from your SoI ticks & probably from their ticks as well. Regardless of the nerf, I still think that SS is going to be the outright winner overall when 5.4 hits. We really don't need anymore HoTs or a big heal, I mean we already have WoG in our toolkit for the big heal & LoH if things get really sketchy, so I'd take the absorb from SS any day to help mitigate further damage.

  7. #67
    The only real answer to how much of it is actually wasted is parsing, and parsing, and parsing. I guess I could even start from a couple live LFR runs just to fill time, but it would be best if someone parses it (or has parses of) on PTR Siege. Then we'll know. If this will be a downright nerf, a mere shift in talents, or even a slight buff, it will all depend on the effective overhealing percentage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  8. #68
    Short answer it will differ from fight to fight.

    Generalized

    Any fight where you are in risk of getting one shotted -> SS
    Any fights where there is no a snowballs chance in hell that you will get one shotted -> EF

    For T15 I would have done something like

    SS: Jin, Hor, Tortos, Ji-Kun, Durumu, DA, Twins, LS
    EF: Counc, Megaera, Primordius, Qon

    if these changes were live. Now, that is just at quick glance without too much thought going into it, probably overlooked something which makes 1 talent superb on a fight that I didnt mention.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-08-07 at 02:58 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #69
    Welp, Ret nerf to SS reverted. Guess that answers two things:

    1) They are aware that the nerf to ret was ridiculous and unwarranted
    2) They seem to think that a 30% nerf to SS, coupled with the V changes, is acceptable for Prot

    #1 makes me , but #2 makes me
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Welp, Ret nerf to SS reverted. Guess that answers two things:

    1) They are aware that the nerf to ret was ridiculous and unwarranted
    2) They seem to think that a 30% nerf to SS, coupled with the V changes, is acceptable for Prot

    #1 makes me , but #2 makes me
    It feels to me like they are messing with 2 many things, lowering vengeance gain overall, lowering vengeance gain from multiple mobs, lowering SS etc. They are tinkering with too many "small" nerfs that overall it can add up to be quite big changes.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It feels to me like they are messing with 2 many things, lowering vengeance gain overall, lowering vengeance gain from multiple mobs, lowering SS etc. They are tinkering with too many "small" nerfs that overall it can add up to be quite big changes.
    It sounds like you're saying that they don't know what they're doing and are simply throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

    Do you really think they'd do that?

    Just tinker with shit for the sake of it?

    What's next? Writing up a list of mage nerfs, just to revert them, in order for people to think they're "balancing" mages in PVP?





    owait...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #72
    Nooo! Blizzard would never throw shit at the wall to see what sticks, they always know what they are doing.

    5.2:

    -We are nerfing battle-healer, it was intended to be a retribution glyph.
    -But rets dont use seal of insight?
    -Ehr.... NOT WORKING AS INTENDED

    5.4:

    -We are nerfing battle-healer because it was meant to be a holy paladin glyph
    -But sir! You said in 5.2 that it was intended to be a retribution glyph?
    -Ehr, no, said not such thing, it was always a holy paladin glyph!
    -But, if the glyph was for holy paladins, why make it splash healing from physical damage when the majority of the damage a holy paladin use is holy damage? The only physical damage is their melee hits and crusader strike, which you actively nerf to make sure they dont use them? So why make a glyph based around spells that a spec should not use in your philosophy?
    -We are nerfing it, okhay?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #73
    Never mind that the only spec that ACTUALLY uses/used it was the one spec never called out for having it intended.

    Because logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #74
    Its like, I could have bought it being a retribution glyph if the battle-healer applied to all your seals, not just seal of insight.
    I could have bought it being a holy glyph if it was like 50-100% of your denounce, or maybe 50% of your judgement+denounce, but not physical damage.

    The entire glyph just made no sense for anyone but prot.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #75
    I even liked that it was changed to the 5.4 v1 edit, which allowed it to be a meaningful heal on the raid with an interesting opportunity cost to us.

    Now, 5.4 v2, it's just utterly pointless.

    Well done, Blizz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #76
    I really don't get a lot of these changes. It's like making changes for the sake of making changes.
    Last major patch of the expansion. Expected them to lighten up...and let folks enjoy the last tier of raiding.
    Instead...its got me wondering if I even have the desire for it anymore.
    Last edited by Nelrock; 2013-08-08 at 03:51 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    and how does this "change" make it even remotely competative with SH for Ret?
    It was pretty obvious it was a nerf made to hit prot and not ret, so that's what i was talking about. They did remove the nerf for ret now, which any should have realised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Welp, Ret nerf to SS reverted. Guess that answers two things:

    1) They are aware that the nerf to ret was ridiculous and unwarranted
    2) They seem to think that a 30% nerf to SS, coupled with the V changes, is acceptable for Prot

    #1 makes me , but #2 makes me
    Yeah. It was intended to hit prot, and i think it's fair enough. Specially considered you get instant shield now, making it far less of a nerf.
    not bothering to look at it, so i might be wrong, but it might be possible that you overall can take less damage than before, despite the nerf to the shield. We'll see soon enough. Not that i think most will bother doing it.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    It was pretty obvious it was a nerf made to hit prot and not ret, so that's what i was talking about. They did remove the nerf for ret now, which any should have realised.


    Yeah. It was intended to hit prot, and i think it's fair enough. Specially considered you get instant shield now, making it far less of a nerf.
    not bothering to look at it, so i might be wrong, but it might be possible that you overall can take less damage than before, despite the nerf to the shield. We'll see soon enough. Not that i think most will bother doing it.
    Unfortunately, no.

    The "instant on" part may make it slightly more user-friendly for those unfamiliar with the Prot lifestyle, but it is in no way less of a nerf to any good Protpal. We SS pre-pull so the shield is rolling, then refresh prior to it falling off in combat. The ONLY change would be the first application after a V increase (and it'd have to be a BIG increase), where we get the new SS value ~3sec earlier. Over the course of a fight, this may happen 1-3 times, so you're looking at ~10 seconds of change.

    It's a flat 30% nerf, though I don't know the specifics of it, WRT 30% coming off of the baseline or the scalar. I'd assume the scalar, since baseline 30% would be almost indetectible in real situations, but one can hope!

    TL;DR - We (prots) will take 30% more damage with the SS change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    TL;DR - We (prots) will take 30% more damage with the SS change.
    I'm curious how much of that 30% will just be seen in a reduction in overhealing taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  20. #80
    Did they change SS to apply as shield instantly now? Should give some throughput increase for when you reapply it.

    Though that 30% nerf is of course bigger than that gain
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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