3 Unique Specs

[ophion1990]

I'd suggest a revamp come if the role system were revamped (this would be enough to make a new game on its own, let alone the major selling point of an expansion) to include support roles.

Rogues (and hunters for instance) I think would make great support classes.

Mmm, I feel like rogues and hunters are actually the most "loner" classes of WoW tbh, it feels that way for me atleast. Survival is a loner surviving out in the woods, going all rambo on his opponents. BM relies on his pet and pet alone, marksmanship hunters shoot their opponents from a range, all we are is distraction basicly. Sub feels like survival, hiding out and striking at an opponents weak moment, taking it out quickly. Assasination is kinda the same but with the use of poisons (like poisoning someones food or w/e). Combat is probably the only spec I see that somewhat relies on his allies. But even a combat rogue would see his allies as disposable.

Like the discription rogues get (or used to get) in the character creation screen: "His loyalties only last as long as his contract" or something along those lines.

[Redecle]

OP you do realize that rogues playing combat spec now, dislike playing assassination as much as assasination rogues dislike combat.
In my opinion, combat already has more variation on weapon choices than ass or sub, yet i propably wouldn't remove any of the specs as they are.
Just make them more distinctive. Game has more than enough healing specs and tanks and ranged dps, beside we now have tool for ranged dps and many for fast gap closing. Specs just need tweaking in. Bake SnD in to baseline for all rogues or remove it completely. For example:

Assassination - Make the spec completely about poisons. Damage is based on the poisons and finishers using them. Finisher that deals instant poison damage like Envenom now and another that consumes poisons from target. haste effects poisons more as it does now. Mastery improves poisons as it does now. Aoe based on poisons as Fan of knives now does.

Subtlety - Spec based on bleeds. Haste effects bleeds and mastery improves them also. Rupture style finishers, one that's length is based on combo points and another that's standard length apply just hits harder the more combo points used. Aoe based on bleeds as Crimson Tempest is now.

Combat - Base it on good old armor penetration, not the stackable stuff from gear, more in the line of abilities that improve it, haste could provide basic attack speed and mastery improve armor penetration. Eviscerate style finisher that hit on armor but use arpen to improve the effectiveness plus revealing strike style of combo builder that would apply the target for arpen debuff over time like Sub Find Weakness now does and then another finisher that would base it's arpen directly on the amount of combo points. Evi would be better when used with RS debuff, but needs the debuff to be effective and CB based finisher would be useful directly for when there's no time to wait for over time effects. And as aoe I would chance Killing spree into something more useful in aoe situations that would use arpen and remove Blade Flurry, KS would ignore armor and make more assaults with more targets, smart aoe in a way, 1 target 1 attack, 10 targets 10 attacks just not on the same target and basicly be spammable like fan of knives and crimson tempest, but it would not be beneficial to attack same target more, you know, to remove it's murderous effectiveness in pvp on single target. It would be killing spree in the real meaning of the word, like attacking on 10+ targets, but more on the damage levels of fan of knives.


In general - I would make improved stealth available to all specs through talents, Tier 4, Shadowstep, Cloak and Dagger and Shadow Dance for example, choice would be yours. Shuriken toss baseline, and replace it with Vendetta, Marked with Death and Anticipation in Tier 6. Or at least make Deadly Throw, Shuriken Toss and one more ranged ability a talent tier of their own, choice would be yours, combo builder based, finisher or something else. Nerve Strike, Prey on the Weak and Dirty Tricks one tier, cc tier. Adrenaline Rush could be used as cd for all the specs.

Just my two cents..

[Deleted]

OP you do realize that rogues playing combat spec now, dislike playing assassination as much as assasination rogues dislike combat.
In my opinion, combat already has more variation on weapon choices than ass or sub, yet i propably wouldn't remove any of the specs as they are.
Just make them more distinctive. Game has more than enough healing specs and tanks and ranged dps, beside we now have tool for ranged dps and many for fast gap closing. Specs just need tweaking in. Bake S'n'D in to baseline for all rogues or remove it completely. For example:

Assassination - Make the spec completely about poisons. Damage is based on the poisons and finishers using them. haste effects poisons more as it does now. Mastery improves poisons as it does now.

Subtlety - Spec based on bleeds. Haste effects bleeds and mastery improves them also. Rupture style finishers, couple different ones since SnD is baseline.

Combat - Base it on good old armor penetration, not the stuff from gear, more in the line of abilities that improve it, haste could provide attack speed and mastery improve armor penetration. eviscerate style finishers that hit on armor but use arpen to improve the effectiveness.

Just my two cents..

I have to say I like these ideas. With some extra things added around those mechanics.

[Linneth]

Snip

I fail to see the difference between poisons and bleeds from a gameplay standpoint. Rogue archetype is rich enough so it doesn't have to rely on carbon-copied specs with 3 changes thrown in.

There are many things from RIFT and GW2 Thief that would greatly improve how the class feels. The lack of Stealth on PvE is a major fail in my book.

Also, Rogue AoE is so screwed up with useless skills on certain specs that they should just start from scratch. WotLK's FoK worked fine as Combat, being a high-cost high-damage ability. Crimson Tempest should be something different than a glorified FoK; why not make it a real Tempest and make it Channeled like Spinning Crane Kick?

[Woceip]

I don't understand why you're so against adding more utility to the rogue class.

They don't need more. That's probably why. Fine line between versatile and required.

[LilSaihah]

Leave it as is.

Assassination = Poison
Combat = Physical
Subtlety = Stealth

Easy.

[lunchbox2042]

You guys aren't getting that big of a revamp. I doubt they'll change how the class functions beyond maybe putting more of an emphasis on slower harder hitting attacks for combat while leaving the faster attacks for sub and mut.

[Deleted]

Rogues could get 1 ranged spec.. that would be huge.
But something unique, not just 4th hunter spec

[Redecle]

Made some adjustments in the previous post.

While poisons and bleeds are dots, the difference comes from that bleeds are physical damage, where are poisons magic. Assassination would work well with the old Envenom that consumed the poisons, poisons would be automatically applied still from auto attacks where as the bleeds would need to be maintained. Assassination could propably use stacking poisons exclusively like Deadly poison was in the past, improved deadly poison if you will, where you would use envenom to do more damage depending on the the poison stacks and another finisher that would do direct poison damage based on cbs.

A slight adjustment for aoe, Fan of knives and Crimson Tempest could be used as subtlety aoe, cb builder and bleed finisher and Assassination could preferably use aoe based more in the sense of DKs Death and Decay, a Poison Bomb if you will, aimable, spammable but energy based location aoe.

And by talenting Shadow Dance the stealth part of rogues would come more handy in pve. Shadowstep would provide gap closing, Cloak and Dagger sort of provides attack and escape mechanic and Shadow dance would provide possibility to attack in melee range without being targeted, basicly like tanking cd as an continuation to Evasion, emergency tanking. Evasion provides evading where Shadow Dance would provide untargetability for short add tanking in a boss encounter for example and of course more cc possibilities.

For me using stealth in pve is more about pve and boss mechanics than about stealth mechanics in itself. Well actually in raid enviroment that is. Stealth already is the best pve mechanic in the game, you can get to nearly anywhere without fighting mobs, that's pretty great in my opinion.

[the9tail]

Most of those poll choice are really dumb as they are just theme changes. The theme of combat is completely different from assassination or sub (at least as different as any of those choices). What is important is unique gameplay. Now you have 3 relevant choices and the rest are garbage because only 3 are about gameplay and not theme / flavor.

I don't really see why combat is the spec people would want to drop anyway. I'd rather drop 1 of the 2 dagger specs.

Yes they are theme changes because Combat's theme is flavorless. Gameplay is obviously important and uniqueness to that with resources and how they are spent are equally important. But a swashbuckler/gladiator/bard/etc has flavor and can give the flare the spec needs to help it stand out with the crowd. You could attack with a Sinister Strike or you could be a ninja with Katana Slash or Lariat as a Wrestler.

It can be a time for new beginnings.

- - - Updated - - -

Leave it as is.

Assassination = Poison
Combat = Physical
Subtlety = Stealth

Easy.

Physical? How do you define physical as a spec?

[Redecle]

Flavorless is a strong word, for me as combat rogue just the fact that i can use fist weapons or swords instead of god damn daggers is the choice that makes me play combat main spec for 7 years in a row. Spec needed for encouter is a whole other story, there you play what you're needed for the good of the raid, but when you have a choice, my daggers are in the bag, forever. Dont matter what the spell name is that i press to make dps.

[Cazlar]

Your poll is missing the proper option here. A combination of Pirate and Rogue, the Duelist.

One handed (no off hand) tanking spec. It would be hard to balance, probably feel like Bear tanking with more focus on Parry and Dodge since you really can't bring a shield into the mix. Regardless the result is pure baddass.

[Sylreick]

Assassination:
Short bursts of big damage with slight wait times in between, gets a bonus to damage within kill range (the usual -35%HP bonus).
Poisons and powerful strikes.
Damage bonus to begin combat in stealth.
Might have ranged throwing options, even if limited.

Combat:
Become the true swashbuckler it was meant to be.
Swashbuckler is a tank, dealing heavily with parrying, with a minor emphasis on dodge.
Throwing insults as a taunt, or making use of a portable canon as a threat modifier.
Dual wielding the larger one-hander weapons, swords/axes/maces.
Making use of ropes/water/parrots to debuff enemies, or buff themselves.
Less use of stealth.

Subtlety:
Deals heavily with tricks and tools, less reliance on actual weapons.
Uses smokescreens, caltrops, wires, bleeding strikes, and stealth abilities.
Not as fast as assassination, and not as sturdy in defense, but the stealth and slows from caltrops/wires makes up for it.
Stealth works a little differently, while in combat it acts as a defensive tool and gives access to some tools to take advantage of the situation while not going into a complete invisibility mode. While out of combat, stealth works the same as it does now, and for other specs.

[Redecle]

Reading all these posts, Blizzard should seriously consider making pirate their next class. Oh wait they have that, it's called playing a rogue and a monk dual class. Throw in a wooden leg and an eye patch, select the abilities that say yarr and there's the pirate.

If you want a parry, dodge leather wearing dualwielding tank, i really really suggest you check out brewmaster for monk.

And the ranged class, oh wait we have one of those and it's called hunter and there's more, yes they suffer from the exact same dilemma than rogues, 3 similar specs.
So why an earth do we need 4th spec that's the same just for different class. Make some alts people! It's really not that hard.

Sorry for the sarcastic nature of the post.

Rogues are rogues for a reason, even the name states that they use conceiled unfair attacks to further their cause.
Sneaking around and surprising people and mobs, stealing abilities and items and using them against their enemies themselves. Thiefs, Assassins, Spies, Double agents, Murderers. Swift, merciless, ruthless and STEALTH. In and out before you say hello. Stab you in the armpit where you have no plate armor protecting several times until you bleed to death.
One thing they could add to subtlety or any rogue for that matter, what would be nice, ability to steal appearances. Only problem is the tooltip that would give it away. Not much use in pve though, but would be nice in pvp to pickpocket an appereance and then storm an enemy looking like a Death Knight. Confusing the enemy.

We don't need another resource like monks have chi, pure energy is fine. Different specs just need a different ways to revitalize themselves. Adrenaline Rush as cd could be global or just keep it as combat's method. Recup adds survivability to subtlety and also energy regen which is nice. Slice and Dice is a little outdated in my opinion, doubtful any assassination rogues want it to themselves, maybe something new for their energy regen is in order. Leeching poison is already in to heal, maybe something that would benefit from using poison stacks on enemy and consuming them to regain energy. As I described earlier, finisher that would exchange combopoints to enemys remaining poison stacks for a little damage and more energy regen.

[zurm]

Rogues are rogues for a reason, even the name states that they use conceiled unfair attacks to further their cause.
Sneaking around and surprising people and mobs, stealing abilities and items and using them against their enemies themselves. Thiefs, Assassins, Spies, Double agents, Murderers. Swift, merciless, ruthless and STEALTH. In and out before you say hello. Stab you in the armpit where you have no plate armor protecting several times until you bleed to death.

And I think this is where the real issue lies: stealth. It's been handed out like hooker pamphlets on the streets of Las Vegas, and has no meaning outside the opening of an encounter anymore. Vanish is in most cases just a means to enter stealth for a very short period of time (use another opener, with cloak to run away during a wipe or gank, etc). So our signature ability, Stealth, really plays such a tiny role in our typical PvP or PvE endgame playing.

Here's how I see the specs should play out (ignoring exact balancing):

First, across the board, massive reduction in "free" damage. Auto attacks and poisons should NEVER, FOR ANY CLASS, go over 25% damage. This ruins the skill cap on any class.

Assassination: Similar to the current form, but able to re-enter stealth on a regular (but not very frequent) basis during combat. Heavy reliance on poisons (less on the poison dot, more on poison effects like envenom) and powerful executes (increase energy cost on dispatch but make it hit harder). Reworked so mutilate and dispatch are a much higher percentage of damage. Add a new "poisoned" mechanic that works exactly opposite of WW Monk mastery (starts max stack, slowly fades, have to reapply but at a cost), but remove use of rupture.

Combat: Leave it mostly unchanged but poisons should play a smaller part. Possibly make this into a tank, but it would end up being too similar to monk or druid. The ability to actively lower cooldowns with finishers, along with combat potency, makes this unique enough that it warrants staying as-is.

Subtelty: Ability to frequently re-enter stealth in combat (think guild wars 2 theif style, with low-cooldown ability that returns you to stealth if you hit your target) and more powerful stealth than anyone else. Not able to to be knocked out of stealth with DoTs, requires active damage ability or CC. Heavy use of visual tricks and high mobility, lots of bleeds, but very low burst damage. Designed specifically for PvP, not PvE viable. Shadow dance puts you in actual stealth, and you stay in it for the duration.

Finally, an overhaul to all PvP related CC in the game. There is absolutely no excuse to have any form of CC last more than 3 seconds: almost no esport does it (look at LoL figures) and most successful PvP mmo's don't have it either (again, see GW2).

[Redecle]

Another thing that just came to mind, mechanic that's already being used in the game by druids, Symbiosis. As I talked about rogues stealing items, why not abilities.

Rogues could steal an ability from the enemy, kinda like Spellsteal but longer like Symbiosis. Could be pre class spesific as Symbiosis is, but it's not taken from party or raid member, it's taken from enemy.

It could work in pvp and pve both. Most mobs use abilities to do damage, i'm not talking about some big boss game ending ability, rather something in the lines off mob types mechanical, beast, humanoid, etc.. In return there could be possibility for the enemy at least in pvp to gain one of rogues abilities, but maybe weaker version of the ability.

[Sesshou]

Yes they are theme changes because Combat's theme is flavorless. Gameplay is obviously important and uniqueness to that with resources and how they are spent are equally important. But a swashbuckler/gladiator/bard/etc has flavor and can give the flare the spec needs to help it stand out with the crowd. You could attack with a Sinister Strike or you could be a ninja with Katana Slash or Lariat as a Wrestler.

Sorry, but thats a really ignorant statement. For starters, combat is a swashbuckler spec if you read the description so its impossible for combat to be flavorless and a swashbuckler have flavor when they are one and the same. And the point of the thread was unique specs. The theme of combat (swashbuckler that stands toe to toe with foes) is just as unique from assassination or sub as gladiator/bard/ninja/etc so your idea changes absolutely nothing and is a waste of time. And they could absolutely keep the same old similar mechanics shared by our current 3 specs with any of those and it will be the exact same state we are in. We need specs that are unique in feel and playstyle because we already have specs that are distinctly different in theme.

[nightfalls]

First, across the board, massive reduction in "free" damage. Auto attacks and poisons should NEVER, FOR ANY CLASS, go over 25% damage. This ruins the skill cap on any class.

I wouldn't say Rogue has no skill cap, even if only auto-attacking/poisoning can do a reasonable amount of damage compared to a rotation.

[Bigbamboozal]

jeez you ppl if you want range spec reroll WL HUNTER MAGE there are plenty range classes/specs if you want a tank spec REROLL a tank class its simple rogue should stay melee but very in gameplay and not become something completly new

I'm sorry, I can't hear your logic over your raging fear of change.

OT: Dirty wrestler sounds so bad haha...though i do believe deadeye makes some good sense, piracy as well, though i think that was the original intent of combat, it doesn't feel very piratey, it's just got no yarr to it.

[Aphrel]

wtb ninja spec, using dagger tied to a rope, making the spec a shortrange dps class (say 15-20yards).
or make it a ninja ranged dps spec (throwing knifes )