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  1. #121
    Sure it can; there's nothing intrinsic to the ALliance that makes it incapable of carrying a plot; it's just a matter of execution.

    A story is a machine; it has components that interact, you input characters, mix in some conflict, and mash it around until you get some form of entertainment. Like a machine, any of these elements can enhance or detract from the output.

    With the alliance, the problem is mainly a lack of internal conflict, coupled with a deficiency in characterisation. Fortunately the solution is simple, all Blizz need to do to make the Alliance interesting and capable of carrying great plotlines is to invest more time defining and expressing key characters in the Alliance, and to make them want different things to one another.

    Example:

    Have Greymane flirt with the Scarlet Crusade remnants and characterise him with increasingly alienating zealousness in expunging the Forsaken not only from Silverpine, but where-ever they're found. Standing by him would be the newly militaristic Jaina, whose faith in peace and the Horde has been replaced by a very tender wound. Across the aisle stands Velen and Mekkatorque each suing for peace and understanding against the majority, albeit for different reasons. Velen very much believes in mercy, forgiviness, and unity as children of the light. Mekkatorque on the other hand is tiring of sending his people to die in a seemingly endless conflict with no advantage to gnomekind, and no reclamation of Gnomeregan in sight. He is seriously considering dropping out of the Alliance all together; only his ties to the Bronzebeards stay him from doing so, but theur influence on Ironforge is slipping.

    Moira is rallying more and more of the disparate Dark Iron factions under her son's (her) rule, bolstering what was once a dismissable refugee faction into a comparable force within Ironforge alongside the Wildhammers and Bronzebeards. Anti-dark-iron sentiments are rife, and the inevitable issue of Dagran Thaurissan II's succession is a divisive one. Moira herself is overtly pursuing a 'Dowager Empress' role, with credible threats of civil war being the only thing that prevents this fantasy from coming to fruition, for now. Peace remains in Ironforge, for now, but the tension is thich enough to cut with a knife. Tyrande wrestles with internal questions of confidence in her rule, with accusations that she is a supplicant to Varian's will, and is not the ruthless leader she once was. Though in her heart she trusts in Varian, and supports Velens lofty hope for peace in Azeroth, she is deeply conflicted; part of her truly wishes to do the popular thing and mobilise Darnassus at full capacity to purge Kalimdor of the Horde, abandoning the defensive front entirely.

  2. #122
    Alliance has tons of rich lore. Its not a question of it not being there or not being strong enough to stand on its own. Its all down to Blizzard to actually use it and craft it. There are tons of great lore characters, Alliance specific they can draw upon and use. Such examples as Turalyon, Alleria, Khadgar and Danath - could all be brought back and used to great affect. I'd also say

    The biggest problem is Blizzard try to make content for both factions. Siege of Orgrimmar was probably initially very Alliance centric, until Blizzard adapted it in order for it to make sense for Horde players to lay siege to it. Then it naturally went from being an Alliance story, to a Horde one. Especially so since 5.3 was all about the Horde rebels. Had they actually bothered to craft Alliance specific quests to undermine Garrosh's forces without aiding the rebels, it probably would have worked out better storywise.

    Its also very likely that if content such as Kul' Tiras is ever introduced to the game, Blizzard will attempt to butcher it so it makes sense for Horde to be there, similar in a lot of ways to Dalaran.
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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Xucuroz View Post
    if Kul' Tiras is ever introduced to the game, Blizzard will attempt to butcher it
    I believe [though I am not too sure about that as of now] that somewhere there was a bluepost [or maybe an article section?] about how the event of Cataclysm has effectively destroyed Kul'Tiras once and for all.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    Night elfs and Draenei had lots of potential, but they killed it all of with Illidan and the rest of Burning Crusade. Maiev has been just as emo as Sylvanas has been in WoW, so she is a dead character to me.

    The rest of the races either have terrible leaders or the entire race is meaningless.
    Dwarves and Gnomes are pretty awesome. Maybe they could join the new Horde after we take out Garrosh, and we could finally make the rest of the Alliance into an NPC faction.

  5. #125
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omgarsh View Post
    Dwarves and Gnomes are pretty awesome.
    taurens and gnomes on the same side just doesn't seem right though does it?
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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    Garrosh is probably one of the most developed characters since TBC, he has had spotlight after spotlight starting in TBC.

    He's had more screen time than any Alliance leader.

    Vanilla was in Alliance's favour i'll agree, but the new 1-60 is far more interesting as a Horde player, and Cata and MoP, IMO, has had more interesting storylines and much more focus than the Alliance.

    "we got screwed over once so you should" is not an approach Blizzard should be taking, it feels like it's constantly Horde and Alliance arguing over who should get a good storyline when it's Blizzard who should be writing both a good storyline.
    This is actually a really good point and I agree. I tried to go Alliance in Cataclysm and just couldn't get into it really. I like enough of their races, and I even like some of their lore... but it's impossible to really like the Humans because of how they've been developed, and the races I do like (Dwarf, Gnome, Draenei) practically do not exist in lore outside of Brann Bronzebeard being the most overused character ever.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    I believe [though I am not too sure about that as of now] that somewhere there was a bluepost [or maybe an article section?] about how the event of Cataclysm has effectively destroyed Kul'Tiras once and for all.
    I think you might be mistaken on this, but I'm gonna start looking for it. All I've heard about it is that it's still out there and they said a couple times we may end up seeing in Cata, but that obviously never happened.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    taurens and gnomes on the same side just doesn't seem right though does it?
    They could have a combo racial: Cannonball Special, just like in the old X-Men comics!

  9. #129
    Blizz needs a better method of lore delivery. Lots of people who play the game love the lore, I'd risk a guess that the vast majority of players are at least passingly interested (yes, even you lolsaplol). The books were an attempt at that; to deliver a huge payload of lore. The problem is that it doesn't reach most players, and it happens outside of the games.

    What Blizzard really ought to do is have an in game equivalent of weekly webisode releases; by that I mean equivalent in terms of effort, frequency, and density. An example? Once per week each faction gets a new lore episode- it works like a daily quest, you pick it up off some lore character, help them to do something, and it culminates in a short in-game cutscene with ~ 1 minute of voice acting. Speak to Chromie of the Bronze dragonflight to catch up on past episodes.

    This wouldn't be a huge outlay of work, though admittedly isn't insubstantial; but I think it would add immense value to the game for people who love the lore, as well as increasing the value and relevance of the overall narrative for most players. It would be a reason to log in once a week, a reason to stay subbed 'just one more month' (omg, will Moira make good on her threats to Muradin?!).

    The current method of massive updates in xpacs and patches necessarily tied to game design and balance doesn't cut it.

  10. #130
    Scarab Lord UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    This faction bullshit is so tiring.
    Even as an Alliance player, I will take literally any lore I can in the game from any perspective about character.

    Garrosh, just like the LK was, is a world problem. The difference with Garrosh is simply that he has now been in 4 expansions and been built up for WoW players, even becoming the most important Horde leader, the Warchief. Whereas Arthas/the Lich King was mostly in WC3 and then only seen in 1 expansion as nothing but a villain (please don't tell me the CoT was "Alliance lore heavy") so most players had no idea who the fuck he was without going on to Google and searching for info.

    In the end, all lore is Warcraft lore. The problem is what Blizzard has been writing.

    I do always love the Horde players coming in to these threads and telling Alliance players to shut up whining about it. It's easy to do so when you effectively get the lion's share of lore over the last few years. You are telling people to stop whining because A) you are happy with the lore and B) you want more of the same.

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  11. #131
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    alliance has an untapped reservoir of storylines to tap into. Worgen characters, Draeni, the list goes on.

    After so much horde focus i am sure we will see some interesting Alliance development in the next few expansions.
    HA! Not from Blizzhorde you won't. I gave up on that pipedream by Cataclysm. It's so bad now that I never even finished the Northern Barrens chain to get my "Hordebreaker" title. I was just going to do it all for the pet, anyway, but I bought it off the AH for pretty cheap so I said screw this. I didn't even do the first collection part.

    Only story that's interested me in any fashion is the Wrathion story and the Pandaria story. This whole Garrosh thing interests me about as much as sticking my penis into an electrical socket does. Wake me when I get a storyline that I can say I'm actually involved in, and not just playing the part of a janitor in.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Vensu24 View Post
    The question is does Blizz not think the Alliance can have an interesting enough storyline that doesn't involve the Horde somehow? and if so are they right?
    They did so in Warcraft 3, right? The Alliance had to deal with the Scourge instead of the Horde.

    Regarding WoW though, the Alliance had their own storylines in vanilla, TBC and WotLK but lately they seem to be connected to everything the Horde does. And that is understandable as they are at war currently. There is still a storyline they could play out with Moira and the different Dwarven clans, and the Night Elves could be up to something stupid again. There is plenty of room for opportunity in the next expansion. And the Alliance should be more focused on its own since the Horde is busy recovering anyway. I say wait it out before you pass judgement.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I do always love the Horde players coming in to these threads and telling Alliance players to shut up whining about it. It's easy to do so when you effectively get the lion's share of lore over the last few years. You are telling people to stop whining because A) you are happy with the lore and B) you want more of the same.
    Oh yeah, I loved the Horde having almost zero development in vanilla and WotLK and that the Alliance is sieging my city and defeating my leader. Yeah, totally Horde bias!

    Anyway, Alliance actually seems to get the most development, vanilla, WotLK and MoP all favour them. It's just that their storylines aren't as interesting as Horde side and that's probably because Alliance is too much the caricature, flawless good guys. Most Horde races have their flaws, and that makes it easy to write interesting storylines for them.

    Actually, from an Alliance perspective Varian coming back as a hotheaded warrior who starts a new war with the Horde is the best development you ever got. It's just that now he's reverted back into his goody two shoes role.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Anyway, Alliance actually seems to get the most development, vanilla, WotLK and MoP all favour them. It's just that their storylines aren't as interesting as Horde side and that's probably because Alliance is too much the caricature, flawless good guys. Most Horde races have their flaws, and that makes it easy to write interesting storylines for them.

    Actually, from an Alliance perspective Varian coming back as a hotheaded warrior who starts a new war with the Horde is the best development you ever got. It's just that now he's reverted back into his goody two shoes role.
    Wat? Have you ever even played both sides? The story line around Sylvanas and the forsaken during Wotlk, the Taunka and Garrosh's involvement were far more prominent and better done and some of them had actual relevance for future story developements. The Alliance story line wasn't all that great, the main villain was just as much ours as he was the Alliance's.

    And Vanilla did not really have a story worth mentioning, it was overall fairly rushed and not very well done. Real story only started with the BC, which was a complete belf wankfest shafting the Draenei completely and going so far as to giving mayor chunks of their lore (which was an asspull to begin with) to neutral factions or us. Hell Blizzard even apologized for this.

    I don't think we actually have to talk about Cataclysm and as for Pandaria. I've been enjoying the Horde side vastly more. Up to Thunder Island it might have been about even, but again the only Alliance race actually featured are human which the other one's being mostly absent. While Belfs and Trolls both get mayor lore developements.

  14. #134
    Scarab Lord UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Oh yeah, I loved the Horde having almost zero development in vanilla and WotLK and that the Alliance is sieging my city and defeating my leader. Yeah, totally Horde bias!

    Anyway, Alliance actually seems to get the most development, vanilla, WotLK and MoP all favour them. It's just that their storylines aren't as interesting as Horde side and that's probably because Alliance is too much the caricature, flawless good guys. Most Horde races have their flaws, and that makes it easy to write interesting storylines for them.

    Actually, from an Alliance perspective Varian coming back as a hotheaded warrior who starts a new war with the Horde is the best development you ever got. It's just that now he's reverted back into his goody two shoes role.
    At no point did I say "Horde bias". I even said that Garrosh was a world problem, so not just Horde lore...

    I agree that the Alliance seem too... connected, to the Horde lore right now. That's the problem most people seem to have. Because the Horde are easier to write for, the Alliance are sort of shoehorned in to that story so that they are there. If anything, the Alliance should be ransacking Orgrimmar after Garrosh is taken down. At least that would also show they are not the stupidly "righteous" people.

    Blizzard seem able to start good Alliance lore but then it goes wrong. Your Varian returning example is a good example of that. Though it can be seen as progression for his character to have calmed down now. It's just that all Alliance leaders are... complacent, for lack of a better word.

    I play both factions, mostly Alliance, and I like the lore we've had since WC1. Well, not so much TBC lore... that was just a mess. So I'm in no way favouring one faction over another. Lore is lore to me ;D

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  15. #135
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    I say wait it out before you pass judgement.
    That was what we were told through Cataclysm, though. Waiting did nothing, we were promised a "fist-pumping" moment which we have since been told was the Purge of Dalaran, a scene where we are essentially killing civilians. We were told we would get the "High King Trials" to witness Varian growing as a leader and proving himself in the eyes of the other Alliance leaders that he was capable of leading the combined forces of the Alliance in a "Supreme Commander" role; scrapped because the first supposed step of this was depicting Tyrande as a complete and utter moron and Varian correcting her and the community complained, quite tightly, that it was just plain shit.

    Waiting really won't solve anything, and while you're right in saying that the lore for both factions next expansions should almost entirely be their own as the Horde will be recovering from the effects of the Siege of Orgrimmar and the Alliance will be bolstering their own position while the Horde recover, but if the previous two expansions are anything to go by we'll probably still see Stormwind smoldering from Deathwing's attack while the Horde rebuild Orgrimmar bigger and grander while also being shown that they're also doing something meaningful in the world at the same time.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurwyn View Post
    Non-constructive nerd rage really doesn't contribute to the discussion at all.
    HAHAHAHHAHA How ridiculous. You people waste your creativity in stand stuck in the same place EVERY TIME. How expressing that you blaming Blizzard for your own internal problems, hence pointing fingers to the innocent, trying to shift YOUR blame is nerdrage?

    So much waste....

  17. #137
    Most times, Alliance lore is only interesting when it is based on the Horde. It was like this in Warcraft 1, Warcraft 2 and for most parts of WoW. Only in Warcraft 3 their lore was REALLY independent, too bad it was to give birth to the Lich King and in the end the Alliance was simply destroyed.

    There are potential for some independent stories, like the Defias, the state of Westfall with all the poor and famine, the struggle of the night elves with the loss of their immortality, the internal conflicts between the Dark iron, Bronzebeard and the Wildhammer. But honestly, it is not enough... Even if the Horde is not directly envolved, you have Blackrock Orcs appearing in large chunks of the Alliance lore, like in Redridge.

    For Alliance to be intersting, I think there should be another powerfull antagonist... It was what happened in Warcraft 3, where the main antagonist changed to the Scourge, then to the Burning Legion, then to Arthas. Meaning, Alliance needs an antagonist to work properly. And most times, this antagonist is the Horde...

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    This faction bullshit is so tiring.
    Even as an Alliance player, I will take literally any lore I can in the game from any perspective about character.

    Garrosh, just like the LK was, is a world problem. The difference with Garrosh is simply that he has now been in 4 expansions and been built up for WoW players, even becoming the most important Horde leader, the Warchief. Whereas Arthas/the Lich King was mostly in WC3 and then only seen in 1 expansion as nothing but a villain (please don't tell me the CoT was "Alliance lore heavy") so most players had no idea who the fuck he was without going on to Google and searching for info.

    In the end, all lore is Warcraft lore. The problem is what Blizzard has been writing.

    I do always love the Horde players coming in to these threads and telling Alliance players to shut up whining about it. It's easy to do so when you effectively get the lion's share of lore over the last few years. You are telling people to stop whining because A) you are happy with the lore and B) you want more of the same.
    NO, I'll make a border thing and put it in all caps, so you can't pretend anymore it wasn't said (how ridiculous of me, youactually ALWAY PRETEND TO NEVER READ THAT):

    I PLAYED CHARACTERS IN BOTH FACTIONS THROUGH MoP, THE PROBLEM ISN'T BLIZZARD'S, IT'S YOURS. BECAUSE YOU'RE CONCENTRATING TOO MUCH IN CONTAINING HORDE DEVELOPMENT THAT YOU'RE MISSING YOUR OWN FACTION DEVELOPMENT. ALLIANCE DEVELOPED A LOT, THE RACES OF ALLIANCE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHT AS MUCH AS THE RACES OF THE HORDE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHTS INSIDE THEIR FACTION.
    YOU'RE WORRYING TOO MUCH IN BEING BACK TO VANILLA RATE OF 65% CONTENT FOR ALLIANCE AND 35% FOR HORDE, AND MISSING YOUR PRESENT 51%, WHILE BITCHING ABOUT 14% EXTRA STUFF HORDE RECEIVES TODAY. THE BALANCE CAME TO STAY, DEAL WITH IT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT CHANGING.


    Seriously, there is so much to discuss, it's annoying that for the last 2 years EVERY headline list contain at least ONE Alliance whining threat. Don't you people NEVER get tired of being Emo? Because you already tired Horde and the non-emo share of your own faction.

  19. #139
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    There is plenty of room for opportunity in the next expansion.
    I'm getting deja vu from Cataclysm.
    Seriously though, there is a lot of stuff that can be done. It's whether or not Blizzard actually decide to act upon them.

    There was a post of the official forums that layed out the Alliance players feel atm, although his argument I find deteriorated when he start discussing "fist pump" moments he did have a point. He discussed how currently the precedent of Alliance lore is negative, thus people will go into new lore such as the destroyed SW harbour negatively simply because that's the precedent Blizzard have set for the story atm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    THE RACES OF ALLIANCE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHT AS MUCH AS THE RACES OF THE HORDE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHTS INSIDE THEIR FACTION.
    Hang on one sec. This is wrong and you know it. Currently the Alliance story is dominated by Humans.
    The Worgen and Genn. Not seen or even heard of. The Draenei and Velen, no development and the only instance of Velen being mentioned is not followed up.

    Whereas every race so far on the Horde side has had will have development in 5.4.

    The lack of diversity amongst the Alliance racial storyline and identity is something I don't I've seen anybody dispute simply because it's obvious within the game.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-08-06 at 02:40 PM.

  20. #140
    Scarab Lord UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    NO, I'll make a border thing and put it in all caps, so you can't pretend anymore it wasn't said (how ridiculous of me, youactually ALWAY PRETEND TO NEVER READ THAT):

    I PLAYED CHARACTERS IN BOTH FACTIONS THROUGH MoP, THE PROBLEM ISN'T BLIZZARD'S, IT'S YOURS. BECAUSE YOU'RE CONCENTRATING TOO MUCH IN CONTAINING HORDE DEVELOPMENT THAT YOU'RE MISSING YOUR OWN FACTION DEVELOPMENT. ALLIANCE DEVELOPED A LOT, THE RACES OF ALLIANCE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHT AS MUCH AS THE RACES OF THE HORDE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHTS INSIDE THEIR FACTION.
    YOU'RE WORRYING TOO MUCH IN BEING BACK TO VANILLA RATE OF 65% CONTENT FOR ALLIANCE AND 35% FOR HORDE, AND MISSING YOUR PRESENT 51%, WHILE BITCHING ABOUT 14% EXTRA STUFF HORDE RECEIVES TODAY. THE BALANCE CAME TO STAY, DEAL WITH IT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT CHANGING.


    Seriously, there is so much to discuss, it's annoying that for the last 2 years EVERY headline list contain at least ONE Alliance whining threat. Don't you people NEVER get tired of being Emo? Because you already tired Horde and the non-emo share of your own faction.
    What the fuck are you babbling about? I always pretend to never read something? :S

    I have no problems with the lore. If you actually read what I posted, you'd actually comprehend that fact.
    I play both factions. In what way would I want to "contain" Horde lore? (I can't believe you actually said this... Horde have had no lore "contained" lol)
    As I said, all lore is Warcraft lore. I enjoy it all.

    In no way am I "worrying" over anything at all in this game. Also, your current percentages are vastly inaccurate. May want to pull some others out of your ass...

    When have I ever actually "whined" in my last few posts? I'm also far from emo lol
    If you swapped Horde story for Alliance story, Horde players would complain just as hard.

    You really need to actually read what people write before you jump into a moronic hate-filled post like that. Seriously, just read before hitting reply. Also, using the caps lock button to make a point will generally fail at doing so.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2013-08-06 at 02:01 PM.

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