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  1. #141
    Love it how Horde players always seperate the "Old Horde" (Warcraft 1+2) and the "new Horde".
    Yet "Alliance of Lorderaen" and "The Alliance" get grouped together when talking about faction heroes gone bad.

    Arthas - Alliance of Lorderaen. Not the alliance we know
    Kel'thuzad - Alliance of Lorderaen, left Kirin Tor and became the Lich Kings (Ner'zhul - OLD Horde) servant.
    Illidan - non, since Night Elves weren't part of the Alliance then. And they also weren't part of the Alliance when Malfurion BANISHED Illidan from Kalimdor
    Kael'thas - Was about to be executed by the Garithos and the remains of the Alliance of Lorderaen. Kirin Tor not lifting a finger. He only helped the alliance cause of old debts between High Elves & Stromgarde.

    Also, how is Wrath an Alliance expansion?
    Sure Arthas who belonged to a different Alliance than the current one was the LK (after mindstabbing Ner'zhul in his mind in the novel), but most of the scourge was created when Ner'zhul was LK. Not to mention that the major factions going after the LK were 2 NEUTRAL organizations. The Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade. Alliance & Horde only going there cause the LK assaulted the Alliance and Horde capital city.
    Questing wise there was nothing about alliance dominance. Think the only anti-horde quests in the game were Battle for the Undercity and the quest in Howling Fjord where we destroy some Forsaken plague machines.
    Wrath was both factions with the help of 2 neutral organizations dealing with the LK.

    Cata was Horde takes over many contested zones (to balance leveling zones out), Thrall marriage, Old Gods/Deathwing and ending the xpack with Theramore.
    Alliance had hardly any development. Worgen get shunned away to Darnassus to 1 tree, 1 3-house base in Blasted Lands with 2-3 npcs and 1-2 quests. Goblins get formerly "contested" Aszhara with Bilgewater Harbor as a city (not capital) to play around in when leveling.
    Maybe if we a named alliance NPC confronted Benedictus instead of Thrall and Worgen getting some development after their starting zone like the goblins, it would be somewhat more fair.

    MoP. 5.0 was somewhat neutral. 5.1 is almost 50/50 alliance/horde wise (although Dagger in the Dark was imo the superior faction scenario)
    5.2 is 50/50 again with the "debatable" alliance fist pumping that is known as The Purge of Dalaran.
    5.3 was better developed for the Horde, Alliance got shafted.
    5.4 seems thus far to be hordecentric, with MAYBE alliance development of the SoO aftermath in 5.5

  2. #142
    Alliance lore is good, it's just not interesting; it's not interesting because there's no tension; there's no tension because there's no conflict (or at least, not enough).

    It's a super simple formula. Give us two alliance characters who have conflicting goals. This creates tension, we get invested in possible outcomes, and dread others. Then you build this tension until there is a climax (the peak of tension; opposed plot momentum from multiple conflicting character goals). Then you resolve the situation with an ultimate outcome, audience feels relief, characters react and come to terms with the resolution, hopefully growing a little bit.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Example:

    Anduin Wrynn would like very much for there to be peace between the Horde and the Alliance; Genn Greymane would like very much to retake Gilneas and Silverpine for his people. Varian, the external authority, forbids either course of action on the premise that the Alliance Military is needed in Pandaria. Each takes increasingly greater (and secret) steps to achieve their opposing goals, increasing tension; Anduin Wrynn reaches out to the Horde for peace talks, Genn Greymane funds holdouts and builds a secret invasion force of Worgen saboteurs; the two have a confrontation with no resolution, with the Prince dismissing the Worgen as commited only to mutual destruction, and the Worgen accusing the Prince of naivety and a lack of concern for Worgen needs. The Climax occurs when Anduin has succeeded in gaining an audience with Sylvanas, under the protection of Baine Bloodhoof, proposing a detente and Silverpine DMZ. Meanwhile Genn Greymane has assembled his surprise attack force, and launched the strike upon the Silverpine High Command... the very place Anduin is holding his secret peace talks!

    What happens next? Does Greymane's attack succeed? Or does it fail and result in both his and Prince Anduin's capture? Surely the peace talks will fail, now? Or will they? What if Greymane is captured but Anduin is not? What if turning over Greymane is Sylvanas' price for peace in Silverpine and Gilneas? What if the attack is a glorious success, but the future King disavows Greymane for shattering a very real chance at peace?

    All of these outcomes would be engaging.

    Conflict -> Tension -> Climax -> Resolution -> Repeat.

  3. #143
    Back on topic here,

    I believe the alliance has great potential for singular story lines without the horde.
    Examples of such are.

    1) Jaina disagree's with Varians style of leadership and tactics begins to take a more hostile approach towards the horde. She openly talks of taking the fight to the horde and dismisses the idea of truces and peace talks. While she does not fight against Varian she leads a counter offensive against the Dark lady using Dalaran as her staging point.

    2) Dwarve lore, We know that Varian implemented the council of three anvils until Moria was able to rule justly and have the wisdom to do the best for all the dwarves under her power. Imagine the dark Iron that did not come with Moria to the alliance make an attempt on her life but fail and during the chaos manage to kidnap her son in the hopes of returning the Heir of the dark Iron back to his true people. This could be a great dwarf moment for the council of come together and finally "hammer out" (sorry had to be said) the last of the renegade dark irons.

    3) Draenei - So much could be done here regarding the legion. Since they had so little lore upto now they still have the potential for a fantastic storyline to evolve.

    4) Worgen - Possibly join Jaina and help take the fight to the forsaken, or better yet they could tie in with the night elves and open a huge storyline with the emerald dream. We know malfurion banished the original worgen to the emerald dream, imagine if they were needed to combat their feral breathern within the dream.

    5) Night elf - EMERALD DREAM nuff said

    6) Gnome - Seeing the potential of the thunderking and the ability to create an army of constructs the gnomes begin to reinforce their armies within gnomeregan with the purpose of creating a grand army for the alliance.

    7) Humans - Kul Tiras, with the events of Seige over Varian decides that he does not want the alliance to splinter apart like the horde. With this in mind he opens up talks with kul tiras to reinforce them and in turn open them up to the alliance players

  4. #144
    The Lightbringer Sesto's Avatar
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    To people saying Arthas wasn't a part of the Alliance: it doesn't matter.

    Arthas still affected the human population greatly. Many who fought on the Alliance's side were fighting not simply to rid the world of another evil, but to kill the man who betrayed Lordaeron. It doesn't even matter that it was an entirely different kingdom. They were still humans, and the humans in the Alliance wanted to avenge the fallen. To say that Wrath wasn't an Alliance eccentric expansion is incredibly stupid.

    Yeah, Blood Elves and Forsaken also had their own avenging to do, but other than Wrathgate and the short quel'delar chain, they got nothing.

    Also, remember who became the new Lich King? Oh yeah, the guy who had been the Reagent of Stormwind for years.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Hang on one sec. This is wrong and you know it. Currently the Alliance story is dominated by Humans.
    The Worgen and Genn. Not seen or even heard of. The Draenei and Velen, no development and the only instance of Velen being mentioned is not followed up.

    Whereas every race so far on the Horde side has had will have development in 5.4.

    The lack of diversity amongst the Alliance racial storyline and identity is something I don't I've seen anybody dispute simply because it's obvious within the game.
    No, it's NOT WRONG. In the Horde the story is ALSO dominated by Orcs and now Trolls. BOTH FACTIONS HAVE A FAVORED RACE INSIDE THEIR LORE. It's not happening "only inside alliance". I'll just save myself the annoyance and start to put more people in my ignore list, because you're not worth of my time.

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  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Also forgot to add how the dwarfs are now united (dark iron and wild hammer and the iron forge ones) - but every dark iron dwarf you meet outside of ironforge is still fully hostile to any dwarf or alliance player, while they should be (at worst) neutral since almost all dark iron dwarfs now live in iron forge - not to mention that there are almost no dark iron dwarfs IN iron forge, despite lore sayings that most of their population is now in iron forge.

    Or how most of Stormwind got repaired by now since the starting of Cata (when deathwing attacked Stormwind), but none of it is actually reflected in the game - there are still huge molten lava claw marks of deathwing at the gates of stormwind, while (story wise) nearly all damage done to SW has been repaired (not counting NEW damage done in 5.4).

    Or how the high elves and the night elves finally reunited, and night elves not only accepted arcane magic but also allowed high borne to move back into night elf cities - but again, just like with the dwarves, none of this is actually displayed in WoW. There are barely 3 high borne elves in Teldrassil, if even that.

    I really can't think of more examples at 6 AM, but it is definitely a fact that Alliance lore is lately just implied and "in the books" - while Horde stories tend to be fully implemented in WoW for all to see.
    Don't forget that the IF airport is still under attack. No phasing has been done to show that the DIs are a part of IF now.

  7. #147
    Don't forget that the IF airport is still under attack. No phasing has been done to show that the DIs are a part of IF now.
    Aren't those Dark Irons renegades, serving Ragnaros? So far as I know we drive them back and later arrest the conspiratorial chancellor. Why not phasing that out? I 'dont know.. but we could ask the same question about every questing area in general.

  8. #148
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk123 View Post
    Love it how Horde players always seperate the "Old Horde" (Warcraft 1+2) and the "new Horde".
    Yet "Alliance of Lorderaen" and "The Alliance" get grouped together when talking about faction heroes gone bad.

    Arthas - Alliance of Lorderaen. Not the alliance we know
    Kel'thuzad - Alliance of Lorderaen, left Kirin Tor and became the Lich Kings (Ner'zhul - OLD Horde) servant.
    Illidan - non, since Night Elves weren't part of the Alliance then. And they also weren't part of the Alliance when Malfurion BANISHED Illidan from Kalimdor
    Kael'thas - Was about to be executed by the Garithos and the remains of the Alliance of Lorderaen. Kirin Tor not lifting a finger. He only helped the alliance cause of old debts between High Elves & Stromgarde.

    Also, how is Wrath an Alliance expansion?
    Sure Arthas who belonged to a different Alliance than the current one was the LK (after mindstabbing Ner'zhul in his mind in the novel), but most of the scourge was created when Ner'zhul was LK. Not to mention that the major factions going after the LK were 2 NEUTRAL organizations. The Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade. Alliance & Horde only going there cause the LK assaulted the Alliance and Horde capital city.
    Questing wise there was nothing about alliance dominance. Think the only anti-horde quests in the game were Battle for the Undercity and the quest in Howling Fjord where we destroy some Forsaken plague machines.
    Wrath was both factions with the help of 2 neutral organizations dealing with the LK.

    Cata was Horde takes over many contested zones (to balance leveling zones out), Thrall marriage, Old Gods/Deathwing and ending the xpack with Theramore.
    Alliance had hardly any development. Worgen get shunned away to Darnassus to 1 tree, 1 3-house base in Blasted Lands with 2-3 npcs and 1-2 quests. Goblins get formerly "contested" Aszhara with Bilgewater Harbor as a city (not capital) to play around in when leveling.
    Maybe if we a named alliance NPC confronted Benedictus instead of Thrall and Worgen getting some development after their starting zone like the goblins, it would be somewhat more fair.

    MoP. 5.0 was somewhat neutral. 5.1 is almost 50/50 alliance/horde wise (although Dagger in the Dark was imo the superior faction scenario)
    5.2 is 50/50 again with the "debatable" alliance fist pumping that is known as The Purge of Dalaran.
    5.3 was better developed for the Horde, Alliance got shafted.
    5.4 seems thus far to be hordecentric, with MAYBE alliance development of the SoO aftermath in 5.5


    That's something I've been astounded by in this thread. Horde players point to WC3 and Arthas as proof the alliance has lore. But they're not acknowledging that Alliance has no lore going forward.
    Unsubscribed 3/10/2014 - 8/14/2014.
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  9. #149
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    But they're not acknowledging that Alliance has no lore going forward.
    They can always create a new story, new lore and new adventures. That's one of the things that makes wow great, it's ability to adapt and expand.
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  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    NO, I'll make a border thing and put it in all caps, so you can't pretend anymore it wasn't said (how ridiculous of me, youactually ALWAY PRETEND TO NEVER READ THAT):

    I PLAYED CHARACTERS IN BOTH FACTIONS THROUGH MoP, THE PROBLEM ISN'T BLIZZARD'S, IT'S YOURS. BECAUSE YOU'RE CONCENTRATING TOO MUCH IN CONTAINING HORDE DEVELOPMENT THAT YOU'RE MISSING YOUR OWN FACTION DEVELOPMENT. ALLIANCE DEVELOPED A LOT, THE RACES OF ALLIANCE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHT AS MUCH AS THE RACES OF THE HORDE HAD THEIR SPOTLIGHTS INSIDE THEIR FACTION.
    YOU'RE WORRYING TOO MUCH IN BEING BACK TO VANILLA RATE OF 65% CONTENT FOR ALLIANCE AND 35% FOR HORDE, AND MISSING YOUR PRESENT 51%, WHILE BITCHING ABOUT 14% EXTRA STUFF HORDE RECEIVES TODAY. THE BALANCE CAME TO STAY, DEAL WITH IT, BECAUSE IT'S NOT CHANGING.


    Seriously, there is so much to discuss, it's annoying that for the last 2 years EVERY headline list contain at least ONE Alliance whining threat. Don't you people NEVER get tired of being Emo? Because you already tired Horde and the non-emo share of your own faction.
    I know you grew up being able to scream until you got your way, it's how arrogance like yours builds up, but it doesn't work the same over text.

    To say that we ignore our story is flat out bullshit. Our story has been nothing but Varian turning into how Jaina USED to be, a personality swap isn't at all deep. Then the rest of our story developed into help you fix your problems.

    Hey Varian, how can I help in Pandaria... oh wait you mailed me and told me to keep doing dailies to help the Horde, thanks.
    Last edited by Millie; 2013-08-06 at 04:51 PM.

  11. #151
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    No, it's NOT WRONG. In the Horde the story is ALSO dominated by Orcs and now Trolls. BOTH FACTIONS HAVE A FAVORED RACE INSIDE THEIR LORE. It's not happening "only inside alliance". I'll just save myself the annoyance and start to put more people in my ignore list, because you're not worth of my time.
    Blood Elves had a large portion or 5.1 and practically of 5.2, they are also showing up in 5.4. Or did you forget?
    This isn't simply about more races simply appearing more than others. Unlike their racial equivalents Worgen and Draenei just flat out do not receive any story.

    Off the top of my head:

    Anduin - Human
    Varian - Human
    Jaina - Human
    Moira - Dwarf
    Tyrande - Night Elf
    Mekkatorque - Gnomes

    3 Humans along with 3 other races.

    Garrosh - Orc
    Thrall - Orc
    Vol'jin - Troll
    Sylavans - Forsaken
    Baine - Tauren
    Lor'themar - Blood Elf
    Rommath - Blood Elf

    2 Orcs along with 4 other races with 2 Blood Elves to counter balance the Orcs.

    Operation: Shieldwall - Human headed multi racial faction
    Dominance Offensive - Orc headed multi racial faction
    Kirin Tor Offensive - Human head multi racial faction
    Sunreaver Onslaught - Blood Elf faction

    Job done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    I know you grew up being able to scream until you got your way, it's how arrogance like yours builds up, but it doesn't work the same over text.
    He is one of the worst posters in this thread. As it stands his contribution to this thread has been "ALLIANCE ARE WHINING" without actually arguing why people who say there is a problem are wrong and instead simply tells them they're wrong. He got close to couples posts ago, but when I replied he told me he'd stick his fingers in his ears because obviously he can't possibly be wrong.

    I can understand if people believe the problems in the story are not as pronounced, but he flat out denies they exist.
    I can look at forums like SoL that had some of the best lore posters I've seen on a Warcraft forum where people there agree that there's a problem, they just don't like constantly reading about it on the forums. Which is understandable.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-08-06 at 05:28 PM.

  12. #152
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    yea lets take some villages from the horde while they prepare a weapon to anihilate anythin they want
    You do realize whats in game at the moment is the robot cat and gathering the plans layng around right? I'm not talking baout the entire expac there it was about the 5.4 pre SOO questline that we were given.

  13. #153
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    They can always create a new story, new lore and new adventures. That's one of the things that makes wow great, it's ability to adapt and expand.
    They can, there's also lore they can bring back.

    But plain and simple Blizz has no desire to appear bias against theor favored faction, even if it means being bias against 1/2 the playerbase.
    Unsubscribed 3/10/2014 - 8/14/2014.
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  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    No, it's NOT WRONG. In the Horde the story is ALSO dominated by Orcs and now Trolls. BOTH FACTIONS HAVE A FAVORED RACE INSIDE THEIR LORE. It's not happening "only inside alliance". I'll just save myself the annoyance and start to put more people in my ignore list, because you're not worth of my time.
    Babby's first troll? Or is it a part of an ongoing trolling effort?

    You may claim as often as you would like that Alliance has just as much enjoyable content and storytelling potential as the Horde does...

    ...but so far a regular Alliance player - when presented with what Guild Wars 2 has provided to a fantasy human city state and race - knows that a decision between Stormwind and Divinity's Reach is not a case of equalized alternative.

  15. #155
    Herald of the Titans FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    At no point did I say "Horde bias". I even said that Garrosh was a world problem, so not just Horde lore...
    However, this is where you are wrong..
    Garrosh is NOT a world problem..

    Garrosh is no more a problem to Alliance, than Varian Wrynn is to Horde.. The problem is, Wrynn IS NOT a problem for Alliance, but Garrosh IS a problem for Horde..

    Garrosh is a purely internal matter, and Alliance have no business meddling with it. Horde don't interfeer with Alliance political matters, and Alliance should extend the same curtisy to Horde.

  16. #156
    The Lightbringer UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    However, this is where you are wrong..
    Garrosh is NOT a world problem..

    Garrosh is no more a problem to Alliance, than Varian Wrynn is to Horde.. The problem is, Wrynn IS NOT a problem for Alliance, but Garrosh IS a problem for Horde..

    Garrosh is a purely internal matter, and Alliance have no business meddling with it. Horde don't interfeer with Alliance political matters, and Alliance should extend the same curtisy to Horde.
    Nope, he is a world problem. Hence the reason the Alliance are involved. If he isn't stopped, he plans on taking over Azeroth. I'd say that classes as more than an internal Horde issue.

    Rarely updated...

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    However, this is where you are wrong..
    Garrosh is NOT a world problem..

    Garrosh is no more a problem to Alliance, than Varian Wrynn is to Horde.. The problem is, Wrynn IS NOT a problem for Alliance, but Garrosh IS a problem for Horde..

    Garrosh is a purely internal matter, and Alliance have no business meddling with it. Horde don't interfeer with Alliance political matters, and Alliance should extend the same curtisy to Horde.
    Garrosh made sure that he was an Azerothian problem, when he nuked Theramore and went on a WMDs search. The rebellion is an internal issue, Garrosh wanting to destroy the Alliance and make Azeroth his to control is not.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    They can always create a new story, new lore and new adventures. That's one of the things that makes wow great, it's ability to adapt and expand.
    They can, but most of the time they don't in the last 2 expansions with the alliance.

    The Alliance is sitting on a shit ton of heroes who've done literally nothing for years and years simply because Blizzard can't be fucked or fit it into their horde storyline.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Nope, he is a world problem. Hence the reason the Alliance are involved. If he isn't stopped, he plans on taking over Azeroth. I'd say that classes as more than an internal Horde issue.
    He is right on some level - Blizzard did such a piss-poor job at explaining in-game on the level of faction leaders and lore characters as to how it is urgent for Alliance to dispose of Garrosh, that sudden help from Alliance seems like an 'I'M BEING RANDOM' endeavour.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buu View Post
    No, it's NOT WRONG. In the Horde the story is ALSO dominated by Orcs and now Trolls. BOTH FACTIONS HAVE A FAVORED RACE INSIDE THEIR LORE. It's not happening "only inside alliance". I'll just save myself the annoyance and start to put more people in my ignore list, because you're not worth of my time.
    Baine, Lorthemar, Vol'jin and Sylvanas have all had serious lore love in the last 2 expansions with their characters developed and storylines based around them.

    The alliance got 1 scenario where Moira shows up at the end to kill a troll.

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