Should LFD have ever been implemented?

[Deleted]

How can Blizzard influence that though? It's in the heads of players.

Good question.
They can indeed. I remember reading a blue post off someone, gc or zarhym I don't know can't remember.
He was surprised that what most gamers focus on its efficiency. I thought about it for a while and it's true.
Even in the earlier days you would do all you could to maximise efficiency when levelling. Picking up all quests before entering a dungeon? Grabbing all quests in a hub to avoid going back twice?
It's true. We gamers like efficiency. We like hearing the ding.
So where does blizzard fit in this? They did a big mistake. Huge mistake. They gave in to the request of more efficiency. And here you go you get aoe fest heroics, dumbed down content, lfd...
They are the ones that were supposed to keep the balance between fun, challenge, and efficiency, and they did not. They decided to make the game MUCH more efficient; way more than needed.
This, to me, is how blizzard "influenced" our choices.

[Deleted]

I think LFD killed WoW in a sense, the whole mmo is kind of pointless when you just queue up and wait with no interaction with others. but what really ruined my leveling experience was hierlooms. pulling 10 mobs and facerolling them. getting a small group for hogger? forget that, one shot him, tell me what the point in LFD is when you share no excitement with your group about getting that drop, no one says gz anymore when you got the need roll. you just pass on it cause your hierloom is 10x better than it. i remember spamming deadmines to get my blackened defias set. now its just clear dungeon and quests and move on.

[Deleted]

I think LFD killed WoW in a sense, the whole mmo is kind of pointless when you just queue up and wait with no interaction with others. but what really ruined my leveling experience was hierlooms. pulling 10 mobs and facerolling them. getting a small group for hogger? forget that, one shot him, tell me what the point in LFD is when you share no excitement with your group about getting that drop, no one says gz anymore when you got the need roll. you just pass on it cause your hierloom is 10x better than it. i remember spamming deadmines to get my blackened defias set. now its just clear dungeon and quests and move on.

That's true again and another proof of blizzard giving up to gamers requests. Why should leveling be faster? It's not "how fast can you level an alt" that improves replayability, it's "how interesting is the levelin process".

Linearity, easier content, minimised travelling time... All these improve the efficiency of the game by a ton but they really do hit other aspects.
Wow's itemisation was fantastic. Heirlooms (but also bags after random lfg) are great but they got rid of that particular aspect of the game. What for? So you can level alts faster? Would it help the game long term? Not sure.

[Deleted]

& this is why LFD is so bad.
just been in a group with 4 other girls/guys to stormstout brewery. someone says hi at the start of the instance & 3 of us say hi back with exception of the tank (doralinn-outland eu), who obviously thought we were all below such words. not another word was said throughout the instance, which was ok & not such a big thing. we clear the place pretty quickly & at the end we all say ty for the run, again with the exception of the tank who proceeds to need on gear lower than what he already has (obviously to vendor) & then leaves the group without a word.
if this was to happen without LFD, then the tank would quite quickly get a reputation as being quite anti social & indeed a ninja.
while the rest of the group i would quite happily have grouped with again, the tank i most certainly would not have.
this is just one example of what goes on on a daily basis & is the cause of LFD being made up of ignorant people who dont even have the manners to say even a simple hi/hey/hello.

[LeperHerring]

All these improve the efficiency of the game by a ton but they really do hit other aspects.

Improving efficiency and "quality of life" improvements make no sense to me. They're something you do in the real life, but a game is as a whole an artificial challenge. You are rewarded for overcoming those challenges, but actually those rewards only have value because of the challenge to obtain them. Why do you need to kill a boss to get a piece of gear? It would be much more efficient just to buy it from a vendor.

[ZeroWashu]

The social interaction (at least in leveling) into getting a group was one of my favorite times in WoW, but was removed for convenience when LFD came in. So, if you could travel back in time, and stop LFD from ever being implemented, would you?

Cleaned up the thread title to stop any more grammar nonsense [ML]

For those on lower populated servers it was a godsend. for those on higher populated servers nothing forced them to NOT QUEUE as a five man.

Frankly every argument I see against this system is defeated by one fact, you can always queue a full group

[Deleted]

You think a simple 'hi' is enough to count as social interaction?
I almost feel stupid for asking people how their day was -_-'

Even in TBC nobody cared if a tank needed on some loot.
The only remembrance of a ninja is when people took something from you personally, not if he ninja'd a random person.
At least, that's how it worked on my server.
I think we had to many people to remember every single person who stole a low-quality item.

Sorry what?! What kind of server were you on? Ninjaing in argent dawn-eu would have get you a bad reputation in no time and it did. Same in hellfire and defias brotherhood.

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Improving efficiency and "quality of life" improvements make no sense to me. They're something you do in the real life, but a game is as a whole an artificial challenge. You are rewarded for overcoming those challenges, but actually those rewards only have value because of the challenge to obtain them. Why do you need to kill a boss to get a piece of gear? It would be much more efficient just to buy it from a vendor.

Exactly. Absolutely true.

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For those on lower populated servers it was a godsend. for those on higher populated servers nothing forced them to NOT QUEUE as a five man.

Frankly every argument I see against this system is defeated by one fact, you can always queue a full group

What an original point. Pretty sure it wasn't countered 18 times in the thread so far.

[Gwiez]

Improving efficiency and "quality of life" improvements make no sense to me. They're something you do in the real life, but a game is as a whole an artificial challenge. You are rewarded for overcoming those challenges, but actually those rewards only have value because of the challenge to obtain them. Why do you need to kill a boss to get a piece of gear? It would be much more efficient just to buy it from a vendor.

Loitering in Ironforge/Shattrath/Dalaran/Stormwind/Shrine hoping you can form a pug isn't the kind of challenge that's fun to experience. I suspect you weren't around to sit in IF for a 2 hours+ spamming chat, only to have your group fall apart while you were flying across the continent to the dungeon. That wasn't "social interaction". Terrible nuisance does not mean the same thing as challenge.

However, there was some accountability. You knew which individuals and which guilds' members not to group with. LFD should have an option where you can prioritize getting people from your own server. That way all the people whining about how rosy their nostalgia is compared to now can wait 3 hours for a group.

[Divine Path]

I voted YES.

5-man dungeons (as well as Quests) form the backbone of the World Of Warcraft. There needed to be a method to make grouping for dungeons easier and I believe LFD has been an extremely worthy addition to the game. It really added depth to the PVE elements of WoW.

I don't get these "it sucks for PVP game play" or "it takes world exploration out of WOW" arguments. There are so many options for PVP already - Battlegrounds, Arena, dedicated PVP areas etc., and exploration is done through quests, which pretty much everyone does at least a few of.

I would go as far as saying that LFD is one of the best features to have been implemented, as well as Dual-Spec (IMO).

[Deleted]

Loitering in Ironforge/Shattrath/Dalaran/Stormwind/Shrine hoping you can form a pug isn't the kind of challenge that's fun to experience. I suspect you weren't around to sit in IF for a 2 hours+ spamming chat, only to have your group fall apart while you were flying across the continent to the dungeon. That wasn't "social interaction". Terrible nuisance does not mean the same thing as challenge.

However, there was some accountability. You knew which individuals and which guilds' members not to group with. LFD should have an option where you can prioritize getting people from your own server. That way all the people whining about how rosy their nostalgia is compared to now can wait 3 hours for a group.

Can you please exaggerate more when you're trying to get a point across? 2+ hours isn't bad enough. 4+ hours would have been better. I mean if you're making stuff up or applying your experience of the game as a social awkward person you might as well go the extra mile.

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I voted YES.

5-man dungeons (as well as Quests) form the backbone of the World Of Warcraft. There needed to be a method to make grouping for dungeons easier and I believe LFD has been an extremely worthy addition to the game. It really added depth to the PVE elements of WoW.

I don't get these "it sucks for PVP game play" or "it takes world exploration out of WOW" arguments. There are so many options for PVP already - Battlegrounds, Arena, dedicated PVP areas etc., and exploration is done through quests, which pretty much everyone does at least a few of.

I would go as far as saying that LFD is one of the best features to have been implemented, as well as Dual-Spec (IMO).

Well saying that LFD added anything apart from efficiency is bad, but saying it added "depth to pve" is actually shocking. Lfd itsef is a tool, even helpful if properly managed, but lfd as we have it now if anything took away "depth" from pve and replaced it with "quality of life".

[Akka]

Improving efficiency and "quality of life" improvements make no sense to me. They're something you do in the real life, but a game is as a whole an artificial challenge. You are rewarded for overcoming those challenges, but actually those rewards only have value because of the challenge to obtain them.

Thanks for expressing exactly what I thought but always fail to convey with such elegance.

[Deleted]

Apparently a server with more than 50 people on it.

You mean argent dawn and defias brotherhood are small servers?

[Thunderball]

Let's see.
Pros:
- Lower wait time
- Other than that, none.
Cons:
- Leavers
- Bad mouthing
- Lower player skill/experience, looked like everyone who couldnt do dungeons for some reason suddenly started to do it
- Insurge of non-geared players, who wouldnt be able to get into group before, which you couldnt get rid of.

For me it's quite clear.

[DeadmanWalking]

Let's see.
Pros:
- Lower wait time
- Other than that, none.
Cons:
- Leavers
- Bad mouthing
- Lower player skill/experience, looked like everyone who couldnt do dungeons for some reason suddenly started to do it
- Insurge of non-geared players, who wouldnt be able to get into group before, which you couldnt get rid of.

For me it's quite clear.

You mean people who were not elite players were able to experience the content they were paying for!? Say it ain't so! You should definately quit over it, I mean dungeons and heroic dungeons are supposed to the the daughter you lock up in her room because shes still got all her teeth and someone might want to steal her so she can make dem a sammich!

[Deleted]

You mean people who were not elite players were able to experience the content they were paying for!? Say it ain't so! You should definately quit over it, I mean dungeons and heroic dungeons are supposed to the the daughter you lock up in her room because shes still got all her teeth and someone might want to steal her so she can make dem a sammich!

You don't need to be an elite player in order to handle the previous heroic dungeons, all you needed was an actual desire to complete it, work as a team and to improve upon your own personal skill. If you lack this however, then perhaps you should focus on single player content where you have all the time in the world to complete whatever it is you desire without having to feel the need to live up to someone else's expectations.

[Rielthas]

Except that there isn't any alternative. Again, the illusion of choice. You can choose not to use the Dungeon Finder tool, but then you won't get any Valor Points. You can choose not to do Raid Finder, but with the pugging scene being dead and Normal raids requiring* a raiding guild, LFR is the only way to enter raids and get epics. You claim that there are alternatives to these anti-social features, but really there aren't.

* = not strictly requiring, but it's nigh impossible without having a spot in a raiding team.

Am I missing something here? Does WoW not how have multiple ways to get Valor points? You can even do Heroic Scenareos with your friends if you like that sort of thing, and you get likely the most efficient means of valor acquisition there is? Sorry, you're point about illusion of choice to do lfd is invalid if you base it on some false belief that there is no other way to get valor in WoW. Its not even the most efficient way anymore.

Secondly, you say you are forced to do LFR to get raid gear if you don't have a raid team. I think that's the point. People who don't have a raiding guild want to do the LFR, because otherwise they wouldn't get to raid at all, duh! LOL. If you don't have a raid team, be glad you have something to do, because what else would you do? Become a pet battling champion? lol. If you have a raid team, then the point of "you don't have to do LFR" comes right back - it is ultimately a choice. LFR is there to server exactly the audience and the purpose it was meant to serve, and not having a normal raid team option 'is' as much the main reason as any.

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You don't need to be an elite player in order to handle the previous heroic dungeons, all you needed was an actual desire to complete it, work as a team and to improve upon your own personal skill. If you lack this however, then perhaps you should focus on single player content where you have all the time in the world to complete whatever it is you desire without having to feel the need to live up to someone else's expectations.

Perhaps not, because I happen to like World of Warcraft just the way it is for this. Its players like you who have such problems with the game, not us who like it just fine.

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Let's see.
Pros:
- Lower wait time
- Other than that, none.
Cons:
- Leavers
- Bad mouthing
- Lower player skill/experience, looked like everyone who couldnt do dungeons for some reason suddenly started to do it
- Insurge of non-geared players, who wouldnt be able to get into group before, which you couldnt get rid of.

For me it's quite clear.

Hmm,
Pros:
- not having to pug

Cons:
-having to Pug
-if you have a beef over any other cons of LFD, see Con number 1

Pretty clear to me too:

I hate f' ing pugging, and so do a lot of other players who love WoW in every way otherwise.

Our preferences are different than yours, if you like pugging, go pug, in fact, get the Pug outta here! lol. Blizzard understands that they have a huge playerbase, and a good number of them hate pugging as much as I do. Not everyone cup of tea. As long as there are a large number of players who hate pugging for various reasons, LFD and LFR will be critical to WoW's survival, and if they had never been implemented, WoW might never be what it is today.

[Lord Blackmore]

Yeah, because teleporting a dungeon with 4 randoms to button smash in silence (possibly interrupted by obscenities) for 15 minutes makes you feel like an adventurer?

I didn't say that. My point was simply that finding people to group with wasn't part of the fun of running dungeons.

[Rielthas]

Why? because not everyone, regardless of how social they consider themselves as a person as a WoW player, or what they consider social in the first place would prefer to give a squirt of spit to the work and time it takes to pug. For many of us, its the complete opposite of fun. For me, fun is hacking my way through dungeons and LFR's quickly and efficiently, and not having to wory who I have to work with - I'll do my best to work with pretty much anyone that a random generator can stick in my group. I find sitting around pugging and waiting to be no fun, waiting in an insta que while I do other stuff and then hacking my way through rapid fire content - much more fun. Its all a matter of preference.

Since getting rid of LFD and LFR would ruin the fun for a large portion of the player base, and since keeping them in need not spoil your fun in any way shape or form, which method do you think Blizzard will always chose? That's why so many of us love Blizzard right now, and why you probably are developing a distaste for Blizzard and WoW. Not our problem, sorry!

[Lord Blackmore]

You mean argent dawn and defias brotherhood are small servers?

It goes back to something I wrote earlier. It's not possible to know who all unreliable (or reliable) players are. On big servers, especially, many, perhaps most players are going to not even show up on someone's radar.

[draykorinee]

mop

Except that there isn't any alternative. Again, the illusion of choice. You can choose not to use the Dungeon Finder tool, but then you won't get any Valor Points. You can choose not to do Raid Finder, but with the pugging scene being dead and Normal raids requiring* a raiding guild, LFR is the only way to enter raids and get epics. You claim that there are alternatives to these anti-social features, but really there aren't.

* = not strictly requiring, but it's nigh impossible without having a spot in a raiding team.

you can do dungeon finder with a fullet pug group, there is no illusion, the choice is clear, I do full guilds runs for valor or if I'm not too fussed I'll run a random