1. #1

    Question PvP Realms have been withering away. Ideas?

    Disclaimer: These ideas are supposed to make PvP gameplay in quest areas fair and fun. It's focused on short skirmishes between random players in questing areas. If you aren't interested in the issue or pessimistic about the premise, you're hereby set free and don't have to read any more. Hooray!


    I don't think policies or mechanics on PvP realms have been changed since 2004, though there seems to be a dire need for it. But if random BGs can be fun, so can be confrontations around quest areas.


    First off, lets think about the environment the realms were launched in in 2004:
    • The difference between a full T3 set and random lvl30 gear would have been something like 50 ilvls (= ~4 times as strong).
    • Obtaining strong gear took a looong time.
    • Leveling also took a long time, so chances were pretty high a moderate amount of people would be hanging out around quest hubs.
    • Most classes could not heal themselves.
    • There were no flying mounts, and even getting epic mounts would take time and lots of precious money.
    • Classes were not balanced.
    • The lack of comprehensive guides on the internet left most players unaware of how their character would best be utilized.

    So, you were relatively safe in quest hubs, you could get roadblocked and corpse camped to no end, players would stick together more often, getting killed by a high level player would not be quite as annoying as there was a relatively high chance they would be retaliated against by random people, not have any means of getting away quickly for their lack of flying mount, and be stuck doing a corpse run for a while.



    Comparing that to today it should be pretty clear PvP servers would need some retuning. So much has changed.
    • The difference between a full T15 set and random lvl30 gear are 500ilvls (= almost 100 times stronger).
    • Leveling takes a short time, is stretched out over more content, and a load of LFD/BG queues are being used, so you'll only find few if any people in quest hubs, even with cross realm phasing.
    • Almost every class can heal themselves, so getting locked in combat by guards or slowly having your life chipped away by lower level players is not dangerous anymore.
    • Almost everyone has a flying mount and can descend from the heavens upon any target they wish to while remaining completely safe from attacks themselves.
    • Every class can PvP viably.
    • Loads of guides make it possible for a much larger percentage of players to max out their class.
    • Gearing up is easier and doesn't take as long as it used to, so there is a higher percentage of strong players than there used to be.



    So, I hope we can agree some changes are in order. If you don't think so, I'd love to hear what you want to say.



    I've had some ideas and want to offer them regardless. They aren't single suggestions but supposed to be implemented all at once:

    Characters can't interact with others if they're too high level for a zone.
    Independent of phasing, if somebody is more than +x ilvls away from the zone's set value, they aren't visible to players who're in range for that zone. This doesn't prevent ganking, as players with enchantments, dungeon/PvP gear, better class knowledge or even just territorial advantage still have the upper hand on others - there's just boundaries to it now where you won't die to one instant cast ranged attack by a random lvl90 in LFR gear even while sitting in a friendly quest hub amidst 10 guards of your faction.


    Both Yellow and Green guards intervene in any PvP-fights in range.
    IIRC, most quest hub guards and quest givers do nothing to help players who're getting killed in front of their eyes. This makes quest hubs completely unsafe and players open to attacks not just "out in the wild", but pretty much anywhere outside their own friendly low-level territory, which becomes a problem especially later on in the game when the majority of quest hubs forces both factions to hang around in the same areas. All quest hub NPCs should ruthlessly mangle any aggressors so players can catch some breath there.


    Killing higher ilvl players grants a lot more honor.
    I don't know the current formula but always getting between 0.5 and 1.5 honor points regardless of how strong your opponent is doesn't cut it. If you kill someone on higher ilvl than you and receive a couple of honor points at once (I'm thinking up to around 10), two birds are killed with one stone: Players feel like they have been rewarded accordingly, and high ilvl players suddenly find themselves being high value players who're more likely to be chased, prompting them to be more careful.


    Flying mounts fly faster when they're close to the ground. Attacking flying players eventually dismounts them.
    Flying mounts are great for getting around quickly but mess up PvP. Currently, players on flying mounts are save from incoming attacks because they can just fly away or keep a large distance from the ground, allowing for great, unhindered mobility to corpse camp, stalk or otherwise harass other players. They are a necessary addition to the game in its current state because you'll have to get around high level players a lot, but change #1 deals with that, so they're open for tweaks.
    Them flying faster when close to the ground encourages players to stay in attack range of other players, but doesn't force them to. They'll have to take risks in order to get around fast.
    Attacks dismounting players makes sure they aren't safe when flying close to the ground. On the other hand, players who deliberately attack others high up in the air will not succeed in dismounting the victim as it takes more than just one strike and find themselves plummeting to death (this would require adjustments to blink, shadow step, war stomp, slow fall and other fall damage removers so the aggressors actually die).



    <If nothing else helps> Players automatically have their PvP Stats normalized in a fight
    I'm grasping at straws here but PvP can be a lot of fun if it's not unfair from the get-go. If nothing else does the job, automatically setting PvP Power and Defense to equal values between two players would at least take some of the brunt of strong player's attacks.




    Well, I hope this hasn't been to much of a hassle to read though, I've entered a trance at around paragraph 3.
    Can PvP realms be helped at all? What do you think?
    Last edited by Astaia; 2013-08-09 at 03:48 AM.

  2. #2
    PvP out in the world is going to be inherently unfair, and that is a big part of the PvP realms philosphy.
    If there is a PvP problem, there is a PvP solution.

    Flying mounts did not hurt world pvp in any form.
    It was dying due to lack of interest, in that there were simply more rewarding alternatives such as battlegrounds.
    Flying mounts offer a huge potential for reinforcements or surprise attacks.
    Try hitting a city with 40 summoned players, or do it with flying mounts.

    Individual ganking is what flying hurt, and really that is not what I call world pvp, but really a cowardly act even if deemed acceptable.

    I saw a discussion on twitter recently where an alliance group literally controlled two horde cities for a period of several hours.
    PvP happens if there is the desire for it.
    That is what is lacking.

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans DiscoGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    PvP out in the world is going to be inherently unfair, and that is a big part of the PvP realms philosphy.
    If there is a PvP problem, there is a PvP solution.
    turn into a giant roaming gank gang. the oposite faction will get iritated to the point of retaliation and eventually enough people will get together to try and beat you. but you need to loiter in placed like razor hill or goldshire.
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  4. #4
    High Overlord MrMayor's Avatar
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    Quite like this post and I have gained a few ideas while reading it:
    -With the new item squish they could reduce the stats dmg and the difference between lvl ( so that a average 88 player could kill a bad 90 or something like that)
    -The flying mount idea is pure genius and another one would be ,that you gained an ability that could be used while mounted that would dismount you and the enemy while both gaining parachutes - 10 yard range instant cast
    -I agree that not every questing hub should have guard , that said some strong guards should stay at starting zones, Honor hold , and the entrance to Hyal
    Otherwise I mostly agree with what's written

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMayor View Post
    Quite like this post and I have gained a few ideas while reading it:
    -With the new item squish they could reduce the stats dmg and the difference between lvl ( so that a average 88 player could kill a bad 90 or something like that)
    Use to be possible in BC. Can't tell you how many would-be gankers running around in welfare s2 gear descended upon me leveling lvl 60ish toons only to have their asses handed to them. I think my fondest memory of those times was being on a lvl 62 mage only to have a lvl 70 mage jump me while I was in the middle of ganking a warrior my level. Sheeped the warrior, spell stole the mage's barrier and ice ward and went on to ravage his attempts to free cast and then the warrior afterward. Poor guy didn't even realize you could blink out of nova
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  6. #6
    With the advent of faction transfers and Blizzard doing next to nothing about faction balance it maybe time to just declare world pvp a outdated concept. I know it's still popular for some but it seems clear from the way players have acted to be something not so popular.

    At the very least once a server hits something in the range of 9 to 1 faction balance, it should be made a pve server and people that are still looking for a pvp server experience should be given a free server transfer off to a pvp server.
    Last edited by Robert3620; 2013-08-09 at 03:28 AM.

  7. #7
    No surprise really. PvE gear holds the advantage in World PvP since patch 5.3 Most PvPers are not seeing the point in getting getting raid gear to PvP so many don't see the point in staying.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Astaia View Post
    <If nothing else helps> Players automatically have their PvP Stats normalized in a fight
    I'm grasping at straws here but PvP can be a lot of fun if it's not unfair from the get-go. If nothing else does the job, automatically setting PvP Power and Defense to equal values between two players would at least take some of the brunt of strong player's attacks.
    I think something like this is the only one that would actually be effective. I believe GW2 has a similar system?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    PvP out in the world is going to be inherently unfair, and that is a big part of the PvP realms philosphy.
    True, but there is no reason for the game to make something that is already inherently unfair vastly unfair. If level and gear wasn't an issue then it would still be unfair in that the person attacking has the advantage of surprise and can get the jump on you at a bad time, or even have a group of friends with him. Today none of that is necessary if you're a level 35 being attacked by a level 90.

    I think the only reason world PVP persists in its current form is that it's simply not a big enough issue to warrant development resources. If Blizzard were to make WoW2, I'd be willing to bet some kind of level normalisation for PVP would be introduced from the start.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Try hitting a city with 40 summoned players, or do it with flying mounts.
    I got my "kill all ally city leaders" achievement in wrath, on a server that is HEAVILY ally favored, when you couldn't fly to any of them.

  10. #10
    Pvp is super annoying when you're questing. I want to be left alone so I can optimize my questing time, not being randomly attacked by some high level idiot who thinks it's funny to kill me and the quest npc's I need repeatedly. They should disable world pvp completely in quest hubs, so they're safe zones and neither you nor the quest npc's can be attacked by enemy players. Only when you're out in the world, can you be attacked (and only on pvp realms ofc).

    I wouldn't hide higher level players, just make it they can't target you if they're more than 3 levels higher or so.

  11. #11
    The Patient Vamandrac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torais View Post
    No surprise really. PvE gear holds the advantage in World PvP since patch 5.3 Most PvPers are not seeing the point in getting getting raid gear to PvP so many don't see the point in staying.
    Bingo! If Blizzard wants PvP to be popular and grow then they need to stop treating it like a red headed stepchild to PvE.

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  12. #12
    Here is what I think they should do and it is by no means a fine idea or solution but something that might help things:

    1. Everyone scales to the level of the zone in PvP servers. Fuck PvE. If you want to farm and do other pve crap in the zone tough luck fight for it like everyone else.
    2. People who are flying cannot engage in combat. They must land for 30-60 secs before they can engage in combat. If they are attacked first than this debuff is dropped.
    3. Players cannot fly away after engaging in combat till they have been out of combat for 5 minutes.
    4. Guards should scale to the level of the zone.
    5. Cities and Towns should be treated as max level zones with lower level players scaling up to that level. This way all players can be involved in town attacks or defense.

    These are my thoughts on promoting at least some fairness in world pvp.

    One thing I think they should do is remove all the self healing. Let's go back to the days where you actually had to eat and drink and in a pinch you used a bandage. All that has gone the wayside and it is a shame.

  13. #13
    High Overlord MrMayor's Avatar
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    Last night i got ganked in Hyal by a noobie 90 hunter , got so pissed called my whole PvP guild and we started patrolling for gankers.
    After a while the hordies did the same and we had 12-18 ppl battles at the wolf place.

    It was one of the most epic nights in a while.
    On the subject i don't mind if i'm ganked by the same lvl or a lvl above me, don't get me wrong its annoying if he camps you but what really pisses me off are higher lvls that just 1 shot you for the sake of it.

  14. #14
    I completely agree with the OP - open world PvP is the bread and butter of every MMO.

    I mean how is WoW even an MMO these days - there are hardly any players out in the open (if I see anyone on my low populated server I usually jump around them and dance with them for joy, cause this happens once in a blue moon).

    I loved world PvP in Vanilla and TBC, even in WOTLK. I only do PvP in this game and my best memories are from ganking and being ganked (but managed to escape or get reinforcements). Most of the funnest battles were when things were imbalanced and I managed to find a way to beat them or escape.

    I would love to see open world PvP have some sort of a comeback so I welcome all recommendations. A game where all player interaction is in instances cannot be called an MMO, it is definitely not massive.

  15. #15
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Give each zone a pvp zone, let level people learn pvp.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowygoodness View Post
    Use to be possible in BC. Can't tell you how many would-be gankers running around in welfare s2 gear descended upon me leveling lvl 60ish toons only to have their asses handed to them. I think my fondest memory of those times was being on a lvl 62 mage only to have a lvl 70 mage jump me while I was in the middle of ganking a warrior my level. Sheeped the warrior, spell stole the mage's barrier and ice ward and went on to ravage his attempts to free cast and then the warrior afterward. Poor guy didn't even realize you could blink out of nova
    It's still possible. Was leveling my paladin in four winds (lvl 86) when a level 90 druid came and tried to gank me, only to get killed. Bad player and not the best gear around either against someone who at least knew what to do with it's class/spec.

    Your lower level will give you some "perks" like higher % from ratings, making your heavy hitters (and dps CDs) do a lot of damage. Things like higher crit %, etc.

    As a matter of fact, things are even worse now since you can have some sick BoA gear/weapons from Archaeology and etc. (like those 463 weapons that you can upgrade to 471 and can be used at 85!).

    In the case of a low level bad player against high level bad player... well... anything can happen, but probably the bad 90 will win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverspark View Post
    Pvp is super annoying when you're questing. I want to be left alone so I can optimize my questing time, not being randomly attacked by some high level idiot who thinks it's funny to kill me and the quest npc's I need repeatedly. They should disable world pvp completely in quest hubs, so they're safe zones and neither you nor the quest npc's can be attacked by enemy players. Only when you're out in the world, can you be attacked (and only on pvp realms ofc).

    I wouldn't hide higher level players, just make it they can't target you if they're more than 3 levels higher or so.
    A fun fact is that usually the pvp player hates questing and even think that it shouldn't even exist.

    But they actually love to screw others that are there just wanting the same thing... wich is getting over with the level asap. lol.

  17. #17
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revik View Post
    1. Everyone scales to the level of the zone in PvP servers. Fuck PvE. If you want to farm and do other pve crap in the zone tough luck fight for it like everyone else.
    2. People who are flying cannot engage in combat. They must land for 30-60 secs before they can engage in combat. If they are attacked first than this debuff is dropped.
    3. Players cannot fly away after engaging in combat till they have been out of combat for 5 minutes.
    4. Guards should scale to the level of the zone.
    5. Cities and Towns should be treated as max level zones with lower level players scaling up to that level. This way all players can be involved in town attacks or defense.

    These are my thoughts on promoting at least some fairness in world pvp.

    One thing I think they should do is remove all the self healing. Let's go back to the days where you actually had to eat and drink and in a pinch you used a bandage. All that has gone the wayside and it is a shame.
    These suggestions will simply kill PvP realms, you'll see droves of either xfers or quits. Bad idea, basically today's world it's "not going to happen."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    These suggestions will simply kill PvP realms, you'll see droves of either xfers or quits. Bad idea, basically today's world it's "not going to happen."
    If what you say is true then people then world PvP is already dead. People just want to gank with no possibility of reprisal.

  19. #19
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revik View Post
    If what you say is true then people then world PvP is already dead. People just want to gank with no possibility of reprisal.
    It's not even that, but you are punishing all players for the whims of a few. Zone scaling and flight restrictions specifically. Basically you're making it harder to simply play a toon for anything on a PvP realm just in the name of "world PvP"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It's not even that, but you are punishing all players for the whims of a few. Zone scaling and flight restrictions specifically. Basically you're making it harder to simply play a toon for anything on a PvP realm just in the name of "world PvP"
    Well that's what the OP is asking for isn't it? Also not really seeing what's so much harder. If you want to engage in wPvP then yeah you're not going to just be able to gank people without chance of reprisal. PvE stuff like farming is one of the few sources of which wPvP can happen because don't want the other person farming so you need to fight for your territory this cannot happen unless the baseline is fair.

    Keep in mind people do not engage in combat are not affected by any changes. They can freely fly, land, and fly so I am not really seeing an issue.

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