Question about Lunar vs Solar openers

[Deleted]

Earlier I was having a discussion with another moonkin and he still uses the lunar opener for all fights (whereas I personally switch depending on the fight) however that is irrelevant. My question is, how much of a dps increase is the solar opener over the Lunar opener assuming RPPM trinkets, meta gem etc. I use the lunar opener for fights in completely depending on timing of individual mechanics on each boss. How much of a dps increase would it be on say a fight like durumu. I tried to pick a boss which wasn't clearly biased in either way towards either opener.

thanks in advance

[moveth]

The Lunar opener is consistent. You will consistently pull at least ~450k burst in Heroic gear. (Using my numbers and gear. 546 ilvl.)

With Solar, on a GREAT pull, I can pull 650k burst.
With Solar, on a BAD pull, I break 300k (sometimes)

So from personal experience, if you want constant consistency, I would go with Lunar. However, Im a gambler and like to complain about how much I hate blizzard. So I go with Solar.

[Deleted]

The Lunar opener is consistent. You will consistently pull at least ~450k burst in Heroic gear. (Using my numbers and gear. 546 ilvl.)

With Solar, on a GREAT pull, I can pull 650k burst.
With Solar, on a BAD pull, I break 300k (sometimes)

So from personal experience, if you want constant consistency, I would go with Lunar. However, Im a gambler and like to complain about how much I hate blizzard. So I go with Solar.

I have the same ilvl anyway OT, what do you mean by a good or a bad pull? number of ss procs / crits, if so thats just rng xD if its rppm procs, they are up for the 15 sec duration of CA, not sure what you mean mate. and finally if its the meta gem proc not overlapping surely that issue is still there with lunar opener

[moveth]

I have the same ilvl anyway OT, what do you mean by a good or a bad pull? number of ss procs / crits, if so thats just rng xD if its rppm procs, they are up for the 15 sec duration of CA, not sure what you mean mate. and finally if its the meta gem proc not overlapping surely that issue is still there with lunar opener

If you've never had a pull where your Wushoolays / Breath of the Hydra takes 20-25 seconds to proc, you are one lucky son of a bitch. It completely obliterates all form of burst we have if a trinket decides it doesn't want to proc while CA is up.

[Aboubacar]

@OP can't really give an answer without seeing your gear/trinkets. Seems like you have the general idea anyway though with how to change it fight-fight.

If you've never had a pull where your Wushoolays / Breath of the Hydra takes 20-25 seconds to proc, you are one lucky son of a bitch. It completely obliterates all form of burst we have if a trinket decides it doesn't want to proc while CA is up.

with those 2 trinkets generally open pre lunar ofc. There is no one size fits all so no one should be telling you to always open in solar, something that varies situationally.

[Deleted]

Currently running with Cha-ye's HC TF and Breath of the Hydra HC, armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%A9n/advanced
I find both of those trinkets are up on pulls, honestly never noticed many attempts where they haven't been up on the pull via weakauras etc.

The question wasn't specifically about me per say, I have a different opener for each boss but I was trying to explain to this other moonkin it varies on a fight to fight basis due to mechanics and was basically wondering how much of a dps increase it was . The fights I currently use Lunar and the reasoning for it is:

(note these are hc versions not sure about normals)

1. Jin'rokh - can get a full eclipse cycle in and be back at lunar for INC at the start of the first pool.
2. Horridon - Cycle to solar during inc, pop ca and have CA dots up on boss and 2 adds before duration ends.
3. Tortos - Same as horridon except I get CA dots off on Tortos + 3 turtles.
4. Jikun - lunar inc rotation with lust / feed young.
5. Durumu - Lunar with lust can push to solar during inc without going under 15 secs etc
6. Primo - same as jikun essentially
7. Qon - as above

So essentially I use lunar for the majority of the fights 7/13 hc usually, I tried to think through my rotation etc on a boss to boss basis but I was just hoping someone randomly had some numbers they had crunched to back up my theories

[Mirri]

Kinda doubt it can be mathed as burst only lasts for 30 sec at the start of the fight. If your rppm stuff proc, then u'd be better off using solar, else lunar on patchwerk fights.

I can't think of a way it can even be accurately mathed honestly. Ss procs, trinkets dual proccing/not proccing can induce so much variation in the final result.

[Deleted]

The Lunar opener is consistent. You will consistently pull at least ~450k burst in Heroic gear. (Using my numbers and gear. 546 ilvl.)

With Solar, on a GREAT pull, I can pull 650k burst.
With Solar, on a BAD pull, I break 300k (sometimes)

So from personal experience, if you want constant consistency, I would go with Lunar. However, Im a gambler and like to complain about how much I hate blizzard. So I go with Solar.

I must be a giant slacker, but I just read on here that solar opener was better and just went with it. Never really understanding why it would be better in the first place. So it is better because your trinkets are most likely up when you have CA up? As to lunar opener, they prob ran out by the time you pop CA?

God that makes sense. Never really thought about it. Just read what the theorycrafters come up with, and roll with it :P

[durrtygoodz]

I must be a giant slacker, but I just read on here that solar opener was better and just went with it. Never really understanding why it would be better in the first place. So it is better because your trinkets are most likely up when you have CA up? As to lunar opener, they prob ran out by the time you pop CA?

God that makes sense. Never really thought about it. Just read what the theorycrafters come up with, and roll with it :P

Not to be insulting but you'd probably improve your gameplay a lot if you learned why you do things, not just how to do them.

[Aboubacar]

I must be a giant slacker, but I just read on here that solar opener was better and just went with it. Never really understanding why it would be better in the first place. So it is better because your trinkets are most likely up when you have CA up? As to lunar opener, they prob ran out by the time you pop CA?

God that makes sense. Never really thought about it. Just read what the theorycrafters come up with, and roll with it :P

That's the problem with multiple forum members making general statements without fully explaining the reasoning behind it. As stated multiple times before your cooldown usage varies entirely on the situation. Your trinkets, the boss, etc. It's conscious decision making sometimes determined by your RNG that pull as well, the health of the boss, or a phase transition. You cannot math it out for every scenario. It's common sense.

Ever since I first suggested changing the usage of opener cooldowns in particular (it was already accepted practice to use 2nd or 3rd set of CDs immediately no matter the eclipse in order to get your 3rd or 4th) 3-4 months ago (in reaction to the initial rppm bad-luck protection changes) I've seen multiple posts by people suggesting to always spec INC, start IN a solar eclipse and use INC, CA, Berserking, synapse springs, etc. This is less than ideal in many situations.

Next time I see a post with the phrase "everyone uses solar opener" going to just report it, hoping it gets removed for being ridiculous.

[Hucio]

Some time ago i just rerolled to a druid as a boomkin spec. I like this class very much - happy owl . I have tried to read as many posts as i can, but i still didnt find the whole theorycrafing about this solar opener. Can someone explain it to me or give me any clue about any post about it? Is it better to start it when u have FoN or or when you have INV as well? Can you explain why it is better?

What about starting with CA+Inc+Bersekering on fights like twin consorts or council where there is a chance to dot up as many things as possible?

[moveth]

I must be a giant slacker, but I just read on here that solar opener was better and just went with it. Never really understanding why it would be better in the first place. So it is better because your trinkets are most likely up when you have CA up? As to lunar opener, they prob ran out by the time you pop CA?

God that makes sense. Never really thought about it. Just read what the theorycrafters come up with, and roll with it :P

Yes. The amount of procs we have off the pull make it exceptionally good when everything procs. However with my Wushoolays, I get more benefit from the Lunar opener (Because my stacks are at 5-6 on Wush when I hit CA, so everything hits harder). But there are tons of factors to take into account when deciding which opener you should use for which fight.

[Juvencus]

Solar and Lunar openers by themselves (assuming you use Inc) are virtually the same in all aspects (DPS, damage, # of Starfalls, everything).

Factoring in RPPM trinkets and LMG the stacking effects cause the Solar opener to be more powerful. That's the only reason. Keep in mind the Lunar opener is 1 cast before Lunar while the Solar opener is while IN Solar. or anywhere where the eclipse arrow points left.

Any fights that you do not use cds at the pull then opening with Lunar will yield more dps.

Always remember, whatever the opener to save the last Starfall before your CDs come back up so you can use it like the pul (3 Starfalls)

[Hucio]

Solar and Lunar openers by themselves (assuming you use Inc) are virtually the same in all aspects (DPS, damage, # of Starfalls, everything).

Factoring in RPPM trinkets and LMG the stacking effects cause the Solar opener to be more powerful. That's the only reason. Keep in mind the Lunar opener is 1 cast before Lunar while the Solar opener is while IN Solar. or anywhere where the eclipse arrow points left.

Any fights that you do not use cds at the pull then opening with Lunar will yield more dps.

Always remember, whatever the opener to save the last Starfall before your CDs come back up so you can use it like the pul (3 Starfalls)

So u start with solar + inc (lost of nature grace) then go tu lunar, then from lunar when u hit 0 go to CA?

[Blizzyb]

So u start with solar + inc (lost of nature grace) then go tu lunar, then from lunar when u hit 0 go to CA?

Negative. Starfall-> (Inc+)CA-> starfire a little while->refresh starfall when first ends-> refresh dots before CA ends-> wrath to lunar-> starfire more-> starfall when the second one ends-> normal rotation.

[Juvencus]

Negative. Starfall-> (Inc+)CA-> starfire a little while->refresh starfall when first ends-> refresh dots before CA ends-> wrath to lunar-> starfire more-> starfall when the second one ends-> normal rotation.

Exactly. The role of Solar is not to be used but to point you towards Lunar once the CA resets it.

[Hucio]

Got it! Thanks. What about doing Inc+CA like 3 seconds before pull to precast starsurge? Then dot up as many targets as possible, starfire, dot up again everything before CA fades?

[splosher]

No that wastes 3 seconds of ca. The perfect opener for solar is be 75 presolar, use astral communion at 5 on the countdown to get ng for wrath casts, pot+starfall, wrath (boss wont pull until it actually hits him), wrath(standard precast), after you finish the second wrath cast and it is in the air then the first should be hitting the boss and pull it(this should activate all rppm), inc+ca, dot, ss, standard rotation

[Hucio]

No that wastes 3 seconds of ca. The perfect opener for solar is be 75 presolar, use astral communion at 5 on the countdown to get ng for wrath casts, pot+starfall, wrath (boss wont pull until it actually hits him), wrath(standard precast), after you finish the second wrath cast and it is in the air then the first should be hitting the boss and pull it(this should activate all rppm), inc+ca, dot, ss, standard rotation

GREAT! Thank you for the clarification. Awsome job man! That is all i wanted to know .

Would be good to update all the guides with the opener you have mentioned here

But this one wille make us almost as annoying as mages, dks or even affi locks on the pull with high count number GOOD!

[Mirri]

No that wastes 3 seconds of ca. The perfect opener for solar is be 75 presolar, use astral communion at 5 on the countdown to get ng for wrath casts, pot+starfall, wrath (boss wont pull until it actually hits him), wrath(standard precast), after you finish the second wrath cast and it is in the air then the first should be hitting the boss and pull it(this should activate all rppm), inc+ca, dot, ss, standard rotation

You prepot 4 seconds before pull ? I would much rather have my extra 4 second of pots in my burst phase.