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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Adornus View Post
    When everyone defends with the statment "it's just the start of the numbers pass," my response is: "if WW were too low, they'd buff hard and nerfed back down to where they should be". The fact they nerf us to start leads me to believe they think we're too high, which means there is a gigantic disconnect where we actually are and where they think we are. From everything I've gathered, right now 545+ WW are doing 20% less on the PTR vs live (if they have RoR). The fact we just got nerfed back down scares the crap out of me.
    That was before a few weeks ago before they reverted us to 3 Chi per TeB and 10 stacks and 20 max. Until this patch we were a bit above where we are on live. The changes are a nerf but workable in terms of tuning. The previous version of TeB felt almost like a Rogue Slice and Dice where you are trying to keep it up as often as possible. The ability was originally designed as a cd to use for burst dps. By lowering the 3 Chi per TeB to 4 Chi returns the ability to it's burst roots. But in order to increase the chance to get 10 stacks, they buffed the Mastery (2% every 600 Mastery to 2.5% every 600 Mastery).

    The Tier 16 4-piece made for some awkward gameplay if you had 10 stacks going. having your next 3-4 abilities only cost 1 each caused some Chi capping issues. Having it only work every 10 makes it not as awkward, but they may have over-done it on the nerf. Need to do some math on it. I'm thinking (though I like I said I don't have the math in yet) it's only going to provide 3-4 extra Chi per minute. not a whole lot if you ask me; compared to the 6-8 or so it was before.

    Overall, I'm still holding out another week. There maybe some later tuning to abilities that might help.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-08-13 at 09:33 PM.

  2. #62
    Would probably do this thread good (and the PTR forums one) If we didn't go "Counterproductive mongoloid feedback" (AKA: ZOMG NERF BLIZZARD HAS NO CLUE ZOMG OMG OMG PARTICIPATION OMG OGM OMG OMGOMG) And instead have patience, there is another build coming this week (this build contained half, something they are doing now adays to make changes more accurate, small builds, then they get feedback on that so they can adjust it).

    Sorry needed to be said. Aside Blizzard hotfix nerfed us on day 1 of 5.2 live so they might hotfix buff us, tweet gc/Devolore about it in a constructive manner going "HUH I GUESS YOU HATE WW NOW COZ NO RAID UTILITY" is just /facepalm... I am aware that is is pretty known, but some things needs to be repeated twice or thrice for people to get into their craniums.
    Monk main Retired til warlords beta/release, undecided about it.

  3. #63
    Wow these nerfed tier bonuses are kind of crazy, the 4 piece is worth roughly the same as T15 2 piece now. I knew when thy were discovered that it was a terrible idea, I really wish they'd stop giving the one spec in the game with the lowest haste hard cap resource generation set bonuses.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Wow these nerfed tier bonuses are kind of crazy, the 4 piece is worth roughly the same as T15 2 piece now. I knew when thy were discovered that it was a terrible idea, I really wish they'd stop giving the one spec in the game with the lowest haste hard cap resource generation set bonuses.
    Read my Post again....the Tier 15 4-piece is a tooltip correction. MMO-C had it incorrect for a month now (Wowhead had it correct the whole time).

    Link to MMO-C thread from a month ago when I called it out:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ece?p=21791526
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-08-13 at 09:40 PM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Garush View Post
    Would probably do this thread good (and the PTR forums one) If we didn't go "Counterproductive mongoloid feedback" (AKA: ZOMG NERF BLIZZARD HAS NO CLUE ZOMG OMG OMG PARTICIPATION OMG OGM OMG OMGOMG) And instead have patience, there is another build coming this week (this build contained half, something they are doing now adays to make changes more accurate, small builds, then they get feedback on that so they can adjust it).

    Sorry needed to be said. Aside Blizzard hotfix nerfed us on day 1 of 5.2 live so they might hotfix buff us, tweet gc/Devolore about it in a constructive manner going "HUH I GUESS YOU HATE WW NOW COZ NO RAID UTILITY" is just /facepalm... I am aware that is is pretty known, but some things needs to be repeated twice or thrice for people to get into their craniums.
    patience? you kiddin?
    I was patient since the end of t14. got me nothing except more nerfs.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Garush View Post
    Would probably do this thread good (and the PTR forums one) If we didn't go "Counterproductive mongoloid feedback" (AKA: ZOMG NERF BLIZZARD HAS NO CLUE ZOMG OMG OMG PARTICIPATION OMG OGM OMG OMGOMG) And instead have patience, there is another build coming this week (this build contained half, something they are doing now adays to make changes more accurate, small builds, then they get feedback on that so they can adjust it).

    Sorry needed to be said. Aside Blizzard hotfix nerfed us on day 1 of 5.2 live so they might hotfix buff us, tweet gc/Devolore about it in a constructive manner going "HUH I GUESS YOU HATE WW NOW COZ NO RAID UTILITY" is just /facepalm... I am aware that is is pretty known, but some things needs to be repeated twice or thrice for people to get into their craniums.
    You are right, it is much better to plug our ears and go "lalalalalala can't hear you" then look at any of the numbers that suggest:
    1) WWer participation is awful in a tier where one of the stated dev goals was to bring them up to par
    2) WWer healing is a joke

    The frustration you see now is that there was plenty of constructive numerical criticism of both of these issues, and now that numbers tuning phase has started its clear that it has been completely ignored.

    When you can't raid on a spec in H10 (again, 1 out of every 20 kills on the later H10 stuff has a WWer) there is nothing mongoloid about raising the issues.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Read my Post again....the Tier 15 4-piece is a tooltip correction. MMO-C had it incorrect for a month now (Wowhead had it correct the whole time).

    Link to MMO-C thread from a month ago when I called it out:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ece?p=21791526
    Sorry that was unclear, I was referring to the T16 4p, hence the comparison with resource eneration.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Read my Post again....the Tier 15 4-piece is a tooltip correction. MMO-C had it incorrect for a month now (Wowhead had it correct the whole time).

    Link to MMO-C thread from a month ago when I called it out:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ece?p=21791526

    Holy crap. Yes, we know you pointed out the error a month ago. You're spamming it every chance you get. But just like the first time you fail linked it, the person you quoted is clearly referring to tier 16 4 piece now being on par to tier 15 2 piece.

    I knew when thy were discovered that it was a terrible idea, I really wish they'd stop giving the one spec in the game with the lowest haste hard cap resource generation set bonuses.
    ^ How does that make you think he is referring to tier 15 4-piece, when he specifically mentions how terrible tier bonuses are that act as resource management for Monks (i.e. not the bonus to TEB from tier 15, but the reduced cost to attacks from tier 16 4 piece). I know reading is hard, and you are overeager to spam your month old thread but no one is going to care about tier 15 set bonuses when the patch hits since we'll be gearing into tier 16.



    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Sorry that was unclear, I was referring to the T16 4p, hence the comparison with resource eneration.

    It was perfectly clear to anyone who actually stopped to read it.
    Last edited by Savage Misanthrope; 2013-08-13 at 11:16 PM.

  9. #69
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    So, today Eein helped me implement our T16 bonus (thanks a ton, d00d!).

    Running the sim with today's changes, I'm seeing some pretty HUGE drops in DPS. For one thing, my live sim shows about 258K; with T16 4pc, my PTR sim shows... 211k. Well, that's better than 210K without the 4set, but still a freaking terrible 4pc nerf.

    No idea what they were thinking with that nerf, but yah - it's a pretty big one.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    So, today Eein helped me implement our T16 bonus (thanks a ton, d00d!).

    Running the sim with today's changes, I'm seeing some pretty HUGE drops in DPS. For one thing, my live sim shows about 258K; with T16 4pc, my PTR sim shows... 211k. Well, that's better than 210K without the 4set, but still a freaking terrible 4pc nerf.

    No idea what they were thinking with that nerf, but yah - it's a pretty big one.
    I think it's clear that they nerfed it to hell because of the problems with haste having so much free chi creates, but that just highlights how terrible of a set bonus it was to begin with. I expect some serious reworking in the next expansion to alleviate the fact that WW is resource capped at only ~25% haste.

  11. #71
    The Patient pattison's Avatar
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    Having a low haste cap isn't really a problem. You just need to ensure that we have something else to go for, i.e. Crit and Mastery. That's where the bigger problem is - we don't really scale with either of those stats particular well. I mean Crit is good, but it doesn't do anything more than giving us more Critical hits, compared to say a Fire Mage. Hopefully they will buff our Mastery, but then that just brings us to the same problem as we had before with having a really high uptime on TeB. I don't really know where they are going to go with this one.

    I think they might have gone a bit overboard on the 4set nerf. Probs should be 1 per 5 TeB.
    Last edited by pattison; 2013-08-14 at 12:40 AM.

  12. #72
    Stood in the Fire Rife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callypso View Post
    I love your optimism, but i highly doubt we will see more than 1 more PTR build before it is pushed to a release candidate
    My optimism is fading fast now that 5.4 has been confirmed for 27th of August.

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  13. #73
    Field Marshal Gulvan's Avatar
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    It wasn't confirmed that the 27th is the release date, just that it is the scheduled day for the end of the PVP season.
    Host of Monkcraft Podcast and Co-Host of Groupquest
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Gulvan View Post
    It wasn't confirmed that the 27th is the release date, just that it is the scheduled day for the end of the PVP season.
    https://twitter.com/holinka/status/367349083943350272

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Gulvan View Post
    It wasn't confirmed that the 27th is the release date, just that it is the scheduled day for the end of the PVP season.
    Except that every single pvp season has ended that way for the last 5 years...

  16. #76
    Field Marshal Gulvan's Avatar
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    I shall quote you will a tweet as well!

    https://twitter.com/holinka/status/367401124296273920

    Until there is official word of "patch this week" I am going to be skeptical.
    Host of Monkcraft Podcast and Co-Host of Groupquest
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    Watch me raid live S-TH 7pm PST on Twitch.tv/gulvan
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  17. #77
    Yeah, true, they could postpone it, that's rare but not unheard of. Still, for Blizzard to come out with even estimated release date means that they're very confident with the patch. There will be numbers tweaks still, but the problem is that they'd need to totally overkill our buffs to make up for the lack of raid cooldowns in 10H.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by pattison View Post
    Having a low haste cap isn't really a problem. You just need to ensure that we have something else to go for, i.e. Crit and Mastery. That's where the bigger problem is - we don't really scale with either of those stats particular well. I mean Crit is good, but it doesn't do anything more than giving us more Critical hits, compared to say a Fire Mage. Hopefully they will buff our Mastery, but then that just brings us to the same problem as we had before with having a really high uptime on TeB. I don't really know where they are going to go with this one.

    I think they might have gone a bit overboard on the 4set nerf. Probs should be 1 per 5 TeB.
    This is the biggest issue. Honestly I think it needs to start with unhooking mastery from TeB period. Its caused nothing but headaches since they connected the two, if not redesigning TeB from the floor up if they want to keep the two related. Hell, the spec could use some overhauling period, but I doubt Blizz is gonna put the effort into it.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    Running the sim with today's changes, I'm seeing some pretty HUGE drops in DPS. For one thing, my live sim shows about 258K; with T16 4pc, my PTR sim shows... 211k. Well, that's better than 210K without the 4set, but still a freaking terrible 4pc nerf.
    Just to clear this up: The differences between live and the PTR sims is:

    - Mastery/TEB changes
    - Tier bonuses
    - ?

    Since the tier bonuses are worth pretty much nothing in 5.4 and definitly not 47k dps on live, that would imply the 47k dps loss comes from the mastery change. That sounds a bit excessive? Did you account for a different reforge/gem build, replacement for Rune (or at least a crit build) etc?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    So, today Eein helped me implement our T16 bonus (thanks a ton, d00d!).

    Running the sim with today's changes, I'm seeing some pretty HUGE drops in DPS. For one thing, my live sim shows about 258K; with T16 4pc, my PTR sim shows... 211k. Well, that's better than 210K without the 4set, but still a freaking terrible 4pc nerf.

    No idea what they were thinking with that nerf, but yah - it's a pretty big one.
    I think you need to double check SimC. I compiled the dev version and the Chi spending rate was the same with/without the 4pc bonus, and the "Focus of Xuen" wasn't getting picked up in the dynamic buffs list, yet I see it in the codebase. If you are getting <1k DPS difference, that sounds like standard deviation error more than a bad bonus.

    Just to clear this up: The differences between live and the PTR sims is:

    - Mastery/TEB changes
    - Tier bonuses
    - ?

    Since the tier bonuses are worth pretty much nothing in 5.4 and definitly not 47k dps on live, that would imply the 47k dps loss comes from the mastery change. That sounds a bit excessive? Did you account for a different reforge/gem build, replacement for Rune (or at least a crit build) etc?
    254k DPS seems a little excessive live, especially since I don't think there are any single WOL logs that come even anywhere close to that number in a single target scenario. My SimC shows me 244k with a default action list (Light Movement, Good skill) and that even sounds like an outlier. I'd put the number closer to 235k on live for a human with great RNG luck.

    Dropping the same profile into Dev SimC (2pT15) I get 220k DPS. So the mastery change was about an 11% or 24k damage nerf from live to current PTR comparing PTR and live SimC.

    Tier bonuses are roughly the same % bonus tier to tier, so swapping T15 and T16 is a wash. The main benefit of T16 bonuses is the ilvl of the gear upgrades.

    Nothing else has changed on the PTR save a probable buff to Xuen (which isnt showing up in SimC yet), and the RJW change. None of our attacks have been touched, only the mastery has changed between then and now.

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