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  1. #121
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    That's kind of sinking in. I was only ever in 10-man guilds, none of them could ever field 25 people to begin with, I think I was 25 only at the start of Cata and the end in DS, everything else was 10.
    Correct it's easy to see when you go to the achivements on the armory. Another thing is it's been YEARS since then and peoepl don't remeber how far back they wer or wtv.

    An example is you were an ICC Raider but it was 10 man. From your posts in this thread I asusme (not a good thing to do I know) that you were under the impression you were a decent raider back then and cleared stuff in 10 man thus a normal mode raider at a good pace. However looking at the achievement dates is what peopel need to go back and look.


    I'm not doing htis to single you out just a s a referene as many seem to only think back and go "yea I cleared that no problem but raids are way harder now I cant do them now and I could then!!"

    you got heroic frostwing halls 10 man on 08/22/2011
    I got heroic frostwing halls 25 man on 11/26/2010
    8 month difference

    Even something like Onixya lair 10 man
    You got the kill 06/10/2010
    I got it on 09/24/2009
    Just about 9 months difference

    If you go back to TBC you can see that back then raids were like today
    SSC
    you got the lady vashj kill on 10/09/2011
    I got it befor 10/14/2008 but that is the earlyset the achieve can go back so were talking years not months

    Even the black temple
    10/10/2010 vs 10/14/2008

    This isnt a "Im way better than you" but I feel many that are in the same boat as you fail to go back and look at those dates and fail to realise they were tiers/ months behind the raiders of that era! They also had allot of valor gear and or in some cases the next tier gear buffing them in many cases and allot of them did things with a huge buff ala ICC... ALL things you will not have in current tier raiding on normal mode and this is what is steem rolling the previous "normal mode raiders".
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-08-19 at 05:02 PM.

  2. #122
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I think the issue here has been more along the lines of "people want to raid with people they like*" and normals have been the only option.
    Even more than that, I think it's more like being told that normal is the right option, and now it's Flex. If Flex had been around from the start, I don't think there would even have been this issue as those of us who used to normal and now can't would never have tried normal, we would have been content with Flex. However, what we have right now is something like an amusement park with a "you must be this tall" sign that all of a sudden raised the minimum height by 6", so a lot of people who used to be able to get in now are shown away towards a different ride that's similar but not quite the same enjoyment.

    Basically, Flex should have been thought of and done at the start of Cataclysm, with the statement that 10N is now tuned much harder than before due to the shared lockout, so if you were a 10N raider in Wrath, you want to focus on Flex and dabble in Normal modes. Instead, that was never really mentioned so you had and still have a bunch of 10-man guilds that were comfortable in Wrath struggling in normal modes in Cata and Mists (DS notwithstanding ofc), when in reality from T11 on, 10N wasn't the right content for them at all (however as we know there was no alternative).

    For me at least, the goal is going to be reasonable progress in Normal, and Flex to supplement. Have some real life issues coming up (girlfriend and two young children are moving in with me) that might affect raiding seriously, so have to see. I do know that I probably won't be content to struggle in Normal and treat Flex as the new content though, so if and when that comes I guess I will have a choice to make
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-08-19 at 05:07 PM.
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  3. #123
    The issue won't be difficulty of mechanics, it will reside in gear.
    The raid was tested at like 520 ilvl, maybe even lower for the first few.
    Any serious raider is at least 535-540, with high end being closer to 550.

    What pugs do you expect to find with 520 ilvl?
    Maybe they exist on the server you are from, but there are zero people on my server outside any of the better guilds that are anywhere near the ilvl as those that are in it.
    That's just how gear has worked these last tiers.
    So pugs will likely be 500 ilvl, and you WILL struggle, if not because of dps requirements but because health pools.
    Can probably kill the first boss. Wouldn't expect the get farther than that.

    The people saying the bosses are "faceroll" mean their 25 man guild that has farmed 13/13h for months won't have any issues.

  4. #124
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Correct it's easy to see when you go to the achivements on the armory. Another thing is it's been YEARS since then and peoepl don't remeber how far back they wer or wtv.

    An example is you were an ICC Raider but it was 10 man. From your posts in this thread I asusme (not a good thing to do I know) that you were under the impression you were a decent raider back then and cleared stuff in 10 man thus a normal mode raider at a good pace. However looking at the achievement dates is what peopel need to go back and look.


    I'm not doing htis to single you out just a s a referene as many seem to only think back and go "yea I cleared that no problem but raids are way harder now I cant do them now and I could then!!"

    you got heroic frostwing halls 10 man on 08/22/2011
    I got heroic frostwing halls 25 man on 11/26/2010
    8 month difference

    Even something like Onixya lair 10 man
    You got the kill 06/10/2010
    I got it on 09/24/2009
    Just about 9 months difference

    If you go back to TBC you can see that back then raids were like today
    SSC
    you got the lady vashj kill on 10/09/2011
    I got it befor 10/14/2008 but that is the earlyset the achieve can go back so were talking years not months

    Even the black temple
    10/10/2010 vs 10/14/2008

    This isnt a "Im way better than you" but I feel many that are in the same boat as you fail to go back and look at those dates and fail to realise they were tiers/ months behind the raiders of that era! They also had allot of valor gear and or in some cases the next tier gear buffing them in many cases and allot of them did things with a huge buff ala ICC... ALL things you will not have in current tier raiding on normal mode and this is what is steem rolling the previous "normal mode raiders".
    While this is true, I'm also seeing people who cleared t11 being left behind. It's a gradual "rising tide" of difficulty thing, pervasive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Even more than that, I think it's more like being told that normal is the right option, and now it's Flex. If Flex had been around from the start, I don't think there would even have been this issue as those of us who used to normal and now can't would never have tried normal, we would have been content with Flex. However, what we have right now is something like an amusement park with a "you must be this tall" sign that all of a sudden raised the minimum height by 6", so a lot of people who used to be able to get in now are shown away towards a different ride that's similar but not quite the same enjoyment.

    Basically, Flex should have been thought of and done at the start of Cataclysm, with the statement that 10N is now tuned much harder than before due to the shared lockout, so if you were a 10N raider in Wrath, you want to focus on Flex and dabble in Normal modes. Instead, that was never really mentioned so you had and still have a bunch of 10-man guilds that were comfortable in Wrath struggling in normal modes in Cata and Mists (DS notwithstanding ofc), when in reality from T11 on, 10N wasn't the right content for them at all (however as we know there was no alternative).

    For me at least, the goal is going to be reasonable progress in Normal, and Flex to supplement. Have some real life issues coming up (girlfriend and two young children are moving in with me) that might affect raiding seriously, so have to see. I do know that I probably won't be content to struggle in Normal and treat Flex as the new content though, so if and when that comes I guess I will have a choice to make
    I did strict 10 man in wrath and it was no joke, fwiw. Everyone remembers it being faceroll because they had 25 man gear to nuke it with. It was definitely easier, but it wasn't that much easier.
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  5. #125
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I did strict 10 man in wrath and it was no joke, fwiw. Everyone remembers it being faceroll because they had 25 man gear to nuke it with. It was definitely easier, but it wasn't that much easier.
    I'm not qualified to speak about it, I only started playing the week before ICC came out so by the time I was leveled and geared (like any newbie I took my time leveling since the whole experience was new to me) the nerfs had already started to kick in, and except perhaps for ToC everything else was obsolete.
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  6. #126
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm not qualified to speak about it, I only started playing the week before ICC came out so by the time I was leveled and geared (like any newbie I took my time leveling since the whole experience was new to me) the nerfs had already started to kick in, and except perhaps for ToC everything else was obsolete.
    I did 10 man the whole way through wrath. The first chance I got to not have to herd 25 cats I took it, loot be damned.

    And yes, 10 man was easier, no question. Just not quite the cakewalk everyone who massively overgeared it with 25 man loot and who took only the best 10 players from their main raid remembers it as.

    Flexi is going to be the default mode of raiding. it's just too easy to fall out with people over if you don't take them. Bob the guildmaster who wants to leave 4 people in orgrimmar so he can get 10 man normal progression is going to be seen as Bob the selfish asshat and shortly afterward Bob that guy whose guild I used to be in because he didn't do flexi mode first thing after each reset.
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  7. #127
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I did 10 man the whole way through wrath. The first chance I got to not have to herd 25 cats I took it, loot be damned.

    And yes, 10 man was easier, no question. Just not quite the cakewalk everyone who massively overgeared it with 25 man loot and who took only the best 10 players from their main raid remembers it as.

    Flexi is going to be the default mode of raiding. it's just too easy to fall out with people over if you don't take them. Bob the guildmaster who wants to leave 4 people in orgrimmar so he can get 10 man normal progression is going to be seen as Bob the selfish asshat and shortly afterward Bob that guy whose guild I used to be in because he didn't do flexi mode first thing after each reset.
    To be honest I don't think either normal or flexi will gain that much. Like i do think flexi will draw some from normals, way more so than from lfr. It's a little bit more fluid than that I think but I do agree you'll see a few normal guilds and formaly normal guilds step down to flexi but I think raid participation even inside of lfr is just gonna keep dropping. Players keep leaving the game so it's bound to happen but more than that I think people are sick to death of raiding.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #128
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    To be honest I don't think either normal or flexi will gain that much. Like i do think flexi will draw some from normals, way more so than from lfr. It's a little bit more fluid than that I think but I do agree you'll see a few normal guilds and formaly normal guilds step down to flexi but I think raid participation even inside of lfr is just gonna keep dropping. Players keep leaving the game so it's bound to happen but more than that I think people are sick to death of raiding.
    WB subnet!

    I don't think it will be about gains or losses as much as a shift! There will bea shift from many normal mode teams now without an alternative to shift to flexi raiding and once they get flexi down then they will start to look at serious progress on normal. If the initial test are correct then I believe this is how the majority if the raids will go

    Start on normal mode for easy first boss ->progress through untill you hit wall -> drop down to flexi and go as far as you can.

    I believe this will be the general rule of thumb for most normal raiding guilds but for many of the guilds that got rocked by horridon this tier it may go

    Start at flexi and do it untill cleared then try normals OR Kill first boss in normall ->swap to flexi

    What is nice is there is now a choice and gear alternative route > bash head in wall!

    so I don't think you will see many gains or losses but more of a shift in where most are spending there raiding time. and flexi gives you the oportunity to take the guildies that have time but didnt fit into your 10 man and use to be LFR / standby only so might see a slight increase but not much there.

  9. #129
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    The one thing I do think Flexi will help with is to smooth out the situations where you have "core" and "standby". Keep people on standby enough and unless you're like the top guild on the realm, they're going to leave especially if you don't have a second 10-man (which in itself can be a problem as it almost always turns into an "A" team and a "B" team). Flexi at least lets you bring those people on standby to organized events without leaving them at the mercy of LFR and pugs.
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  10. #130
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The one thing I do think Flexi will help with is to smooth out the situations where you have "core" and "standby". Keep people on standby enough and unless you're like the top guild on the realm, they're going to leave especially if you don't have a second 10-man (which in itself can be a problem as it almost always turns into an "A" team and a "B" team). Flexi at least lets you bring those people on standby to organized events without leaving them at the mercy of LFR and pugs.
    I actually heard a funny negative to this part of flexi from a group that has 2 10 mans. One of the raiders said that flexi will suck becuase now all 20 will raid togethere and the best from both groups will naturally gravitate towards eachother so where they have 2 balanced groups now they forsee issues where the top 10 of the 20 will want to make a "team a".

    thought it was an interesting negative take on what seems like a good thing!

  11. #131
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    I actually heard a funny negative to this part of flexi from a group that has 2 10 mans. One of the raiders said that flexi will suck becuase now all 20 will raid togethere and the best from both groups will naturally gravitate towards eachother so where they have 2 balanced groups now they forsee issues where the top 10 of the 20 will want to make a "team a".

    thought it was an interesting negative take on what seems like a good thing!
    Definitely can see that, but that tends to happen even inadvertently when you have multiple 10-mans. My old guild, before we split off, had that problem. Our group was literally pushed from being the only group into the "casual" group while the then-GM recruited off-server to make a "hardcore" group, and ultimately they just split off completely to faction change for better racials at the end of DS. They've done well for themselves (they got what they wanted, to be a high-end raiding guild), but it still gets me angry to think that they basically didn't even look at our group for recruits to the "hardcore" team, they just shuffled us off to the side and brought in heroic-mode transfers to cherry-pick an "A-team".
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  12. #132
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Definitely can see that, but that tends to happen even inadvertently when you have multiple 10-mans. My old guild, before we split off, had that problem. Our group was literally pushed from being the only group into the "casual" group while the then-GM recruited off-server to make a "hardcore" group, and ultimately they just split off completely to faction change for better racials at the end of DS. They've done well for themselves (they got what they wanted, to be a high-end raiding guild), but it still gets me angry to think that they basically didn't even look at our group for recruits to the "hardcore" team, they just shuffled us off to the side and brought in heroic-mode transfers to cherry-pick an "A-team".
    I see two things

    1) "Hey, now there are 22 of us in flexi, lets go 25 man!" Theres definitely an upward pressure on raid size built into flexi (according to most PTR testers the more people you have the easier it gets as well.
    2) Make flexis after reset or watch people leave. As you say only the best progressed guilds will have the luxury of sitting people out.

    5.4 will be game changing. I keep saying normal mode guilds are toast, but maybe I mean 10 man, because I can see a lot of new 25 man normal guilds in the not too far flung future.
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  13. #133
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I see two things

    1) "Hey, now there are 22 of us in flexi, lets go 25 man!" Theres definitely an upward pressure on raid size built into flexi (according to most PTR testers the more people you have the easier it gets as well.
    2) Make flexis after reset or watch people leave. As you say only the best progressed guilds will have the luxury of sitting people out.

    5.4 will be game changing. I keep saying normal mode guilds are toast, but maybe I mean 10 man, because I can see a lot of new 25 man normal guilds in the not too far flung future.
    Most guilds don't ever sit people out that I've seen barring like blatant underperforming. I mean, who is going to come into a middle-of-the-road guild and always be benched? I could see if you were in a top guild (on your server or otherwise) but average guilds get people to /gquit if they recruit and then never actually swap them in, or worse recruit them, let them languish and then go "I know, we'll start a 2nd 10-man" when you have like 3 standbys on the bench; in most cases those standbys will leave long before you recruit another 7 people, unless you go the route of having your "core" raiders bring their alts to fill the gap, which gives you a "main run" and an "alt run" not two 10-mans (and then you're right back to A-Team and B-team, and your B-teamers will leave when they realize that the B-team is the scrub/casual/alt team only)
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  14. #134
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Most guilds don't ever sit people out that I've seen barring like blatant underperforming. I mean, who is going to come into a middle-of-the-road guild and always be benched? I could see if you were in a top guild (on your server or otherwise) but average guilds get people to /gquit if they recruit and then never actually swap them in, or worse recruit them, let them languish and then go "I know, we'll start a 2nd 10-man" when you have like 3 standbys on the bench; in most cases those standbys will leave long before you recruit another 7 people, unless you go the route of having your "core" raiders bring their alts to fill the gap, which gives you a "main run" and an "alt run" not two 10-mans (and then you're right back to A-Team and B-team, and your B-teamers will leave when they realize that the B-team is the scrub/casual/alt team only)
    Well people aren't always benched, week after week. It's quite common to have a core of 5 or 6 and a couple of floaters who are taken along as and when they are useful with an effective roster size of 12 -15 (cover for holidays, illness etc) - but in a flexi world there will be pressure to keep them happy by doing flexi first, then normals. And SoO is pretty damn big, even if you were to nuke through it with no wipes its still going to be taking hours.
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  15. #135
    I think people are grossly underestimating the utility of Flex. It is a great opportunity to try out people and expand your guild. Especially with the new server merges coming sometime after 5.4 drops, there will be more new bodies on your realm to run Flex with and maybe even form a normal group with. Flex can be a great learning utility as well. You raid 3 nights a week? Spend one night in flex doing bosses that you're struggling with on normal.

    My guild runs a 10m alt run on off days that we aren't raiding. Our guild is packed with alts but our alt raid has no bench. I can easily see Flex being a suitable option if we only have 9 people show up for the alt raid and people who are less committed to their alts are online and can fill out a flex group.

    A lot of people in this thread are pigeon-holing themselves into "I'm a normal raider now I'm forced to be a flex raider". Flex will be slightly watered-down normals, but most importantly a good tool to come up with strategies that work for your group that you can carry over into normals.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The one thing I do think Flexi will help with is to smooth out the situations where you have "core" and "standby". Keep people on standby enough and unless you're like the top guild on the realm, they're going to leave especially if you don't have a second 10-man (which in itself can be a problem as it almost always turns into an "A" team and a "B" team). Flexi at least lets you bring those people on standby to organized events without leaving them at the mercy of LFR and pugs.
    uhm and this wil happen only untill your raiders get all set bonuses and trinkets they will need for normals - then they will suddenly have milion excuses to not join flex runs with "standbys" and ull be stuck with 6-7 people most of who will be very very average players and ull hit walls in flexi too -_- just wait few months ><

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