Page 1 of 7
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Sacred Shield vs Eternal Flame 5.4 [PROT]

    So I was wondering if anyone around had done any kind of numbers on the PTR regarding SS usefulness after the nerf.

    My testing on live shows that both talents give close to equal survivability but still makes SS the clear winner.

    However with the current changes we're getting in 5.4:

    "Eternal Flame's periodic heal-over-time effect now heals for 40% more."

    "Protection: Sacred Shield is 30% less effective."


    Will this change (all?) prot paladins view on their lvl 45 talent or are they still going to use SS due to the way it
    proactively mitigate the damage while EF just heals it back?

    All I know is that Eternal Flame will have some serious potential next patch.
    Last edited by Decision-eu; 2013-08-15 at 10:28 AM.

  2. #2
    EF on fights with sustained damage, SS on fights with bursts

  3. #3
    Lots of threads on this already.

    I won't be using EF outside of very niche cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  4. #4
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,946
    I know when I was watching the Midwinter stream last night for a bit on the PTR, Slootbag was saying EF is better, and that you want to keep it rolling on you. Not sure on his theorycrafting but he is one of the better Prot Paladin tanks out there so he must see something in EF.
    NOBLESHIELD
    <Meliora> of Turalyon-US
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator


  5. #5
    I'm not disagreeing, as I've seen him using it since early on in PTR cycles as well.

    However, I'm just going to put in the caveat that I feel is warranted:

    "Emulating the top-tier guilds/players/strategies purely because of their status as top guilds/players is not always advisable, as there are more balance issues that we are not/may not be aware of within those raids versus our own."

    If, for example, he's communicated to his heal corps that "don't worry about keeping me topped; let me middle for a bit and I can self-sustain with SOI/EF", he'll get a lot more use of EF than SS, since the overheal % is far lower, allowing it's higher HPS to be realized. However, if you see that, and use EF, but don't change the healing strategy, you're just going to burn a ton of EF ticks (or external healer HPS) on overheal.

    Not saying it's not a viable talent, and I may end up using it more than I plan to once we see how HC progression goes, but for now I'm still on the Absorb > HPS bandwagon for tanking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #6
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,946
    Oh agree totally. I have been slacking on PTR testing (mostly because they test bosses when I'm at work ) but it's always good to see how others are using things, even if it should be taken with a grain of salt.
    NOBLESHIELD
    <Meliora> of Turalyon-US
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator


  7. #7
    I'm looking at the sort of healing I take currently. We usually have a disc priest & holy paladin. A lot of my healing taken is from things like Atonement, Beacon of Light, shields from them both, Holy Shock etc. I'm topped up fairly quickly from these types of heals, and more often than not it's not a direct heal targeted at me. I'm sure it won't change much in 5.4.

    On fights where my health is being chipped away at a pace that doesn't see these heals top me up quickly, I may try out Eternal Flame. It's overhealing from the way I'm usually healed would be very high on fights where incidental healing keeps me topped. In those cases, I would probably stick with Sacred Shield.

    I'm just gonna play about with it during SoO progression

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Oh agree totally. I have been slacking on PTR testing (mostly because they test bosses when I'm at work ) but it's always good to see how others are using things, even if it should be taken with a grain of salt.
    Yeah, it's really quite annoying, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kortane View Post
    I'm looking at the sort of healing I take currently. We usually have a disc priest & holy paladin. A lot of my healing taken is from things like Atonement, Beacon of Light, shields from them both, Holy Shock etc. I'm topped up fairly quickly from these types of heals, and more often than not it's not a direct heal targeted at me. I'm sure it won't change much in 5.4.
    Well, it will change SOME with the nerfing of EF IH, which you will want to keep in mind. However, with the changes to HPal (which I'm not versed enough to speak about definitively), yours may opt for SS instead (esp if in 10m), which could offset it some.

    On fights where my health is being chipped away at a pace that doesn't see these heals top me up quickly, I may try out Eternal Flame. It's overhealing from the way I'm usually healed would be very high on fights where incidental healing keeps me topped. In those cases, I would probably stick with Sacred Shield.

    I'm just gonna play about with it during SoO progression
    My biggest gripe/concern is about the part that I bolded. Simply put, we've got a great tool for low-to-mid constant damage mitigation already; Seal of Insight. SOI heals already pad and buffer those attacks that come quickly/between bomb heals, meaning that EF is going to overlap that role a lot. Not only does that lower the effective healing of BOTH EF and SOI, but it also leaves a gaping hole in the "absorb department" (externals, notwithstanding).

    I just feel like SOI is already doing what EF's role is suited for. I guess you could make a case for "talent EF and then glyph BH", but honestly with the BH nerfing (or, gutting, is probably more accurate), that just seems like a net loss all around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  9. #9
    For me it is fairly simple.

    Can someone in this fight one-shot me or kill me within 1 second? SS
    Does the abilities in this fight not hit so hard compared to my maximum life? EF
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #10
    Does EF even work without t16 4p?
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  11. #11
    My problem with EF is the moment, when you have a 5 BoG EF roling and you need to heal yourself with an <5 BoG EF. Than you overwrite the hot with a weaker version of itself and it costs 18 HoPo to get your new 5 BoG EF roling.
    Main: Naitomea @ Thrall EU - 14/14 hc
    Twink & Friends: Warum bistn jetzt so @ Thrall EU - 14/14 hc - 5 hrs / week

  12. #12
    I did some math a while ago. Conditions were: 42% spell haste, 18% mastery, 100k sp, 3 stacks of BoG (so without going all the way to 5). Under those conditions, EF is roughly 60k HPS, versus 20k HPS from SS.
    The problem is, really, just how much of that is overhealing. EF tends to have a shitload of wasted healing right now, but on the parses I have we're overgearing content, so it's not the same during progression. Still, I had parses around 75% overhealing, which puts SS still ahead. If overhealing would be at most, say, 50%, then the new EF would be stronger not just than 5.4 SS, but the current version as well.
    The good news are, obviously, that EF scales with Mastery, something that SS does not. So the more we gain, then better it will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  13. #13
    But the more mastery you gain, the more gear you have. The more gear you have, the more you outgear the encounter. The more you outgear the encounter, the more you overheal with EF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    3,918
    Wasnt there an earlier change in the PTR that made SH be affected by Bastion of Light for Prot? Was that reverted, or am I just crazy?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    But the more mastery you gain, the more gear you have. The more gear you have, the more you outgear the encounter. The more you outgear the encounter, the more you overheal with EF.
    EF doesnt scale with mastery last time I checked.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  15. #15
    Hmm, consensus was that BOG stacks affect the power of WOG (known accurate) and therefore EF's power. If it doesn't increase EF at least equal to what it does for WOG, that'd be a net nerf from taking a talent, which would be a bug (and another huge blow against EF).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #16
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Washington, USA
    Posts
    13,583
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Hmm, consensus was that BOG stacks affect the power of WOG (known accurate) and therefore EF's power. If it doesn't increase EF at least equal to what it does for WOG, that'd be a net nerf from taking a talent, which would be a bug (and another huge blow against EF).
    It buffs EF's direct heal but not the HoT, as far as I know.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    It buffs EF's direct heal but not the HoT, as far as I know.
    It buffs both components, HoT included. Tested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by arel00 View Post
    It buffs both components, HoT included. Tested.
    That's what I figured, as the HOT is calculated based off of the power of the initial cast (IIRC), which is boosted by BoG (which is boosted by mastery).

    TY for confirmation, even if it does reaffirm the talent as a catch-22
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #19
    Discussed BoG interaction with EF on some other thread here a while ago, might have been the LK soloing one, it definitely does scale though - both parts of it.

  20. #20
    If it wouldn't then the numbers reported from PTR would be impossible.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •