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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I think this is a huge caveat that will get addressed, either on an upcoming PTR build or via a hotfix when more people use/abuse it. As above, and in previous tests done by others, HW glyph was accouting for a majority of damage done, compounded by 4pc and DP obv. Basically yielding chain procs of ShotR/HW, to a damage level that would be hard to believe is intended/acceptable.
    I don't think its abusive at all actually. In fact, we are giving up a pretty decent heal in order to do that damage so its not like it will be en endless spam of WoG offensively. Yes my testing shows it pretty OP, however that was against something not hitting me back. Im sure there would be several times where I will need that heal more than the damage and will not choose the glyph. They made the glyph for a reason...I highly doubt they will nerf this seeing as its good, but also a pretty big choice to take it too. I think it stays personally.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I think this is a huge caveat that will get addressed, either on an upcoming PTR build or via a hotfix when more people use/abuse it. As above, and in previous tests done by others, HW glyph was accouting for a majority of damage done, compounded by 4pc and DP obv. Basically yielding chain procs of ShotR/HW, to a damage level that would be hard to believe is intended/acceptable.
    I think both scenarios are probable, they could nerf it, or they could keep it. Step one is that, other tanks have been allowed to have siginifcantly higher damage output than other tanks *cough* monks, that has not been an issue, I dont even know if this pushes paladins to the #1 spot to be honest.

    They created the HW glyph for a reason, if they change anything, it will have gone an entire expansion without having any viable use.

    They would have to completely redesign the 4p again, or be faced with yet another set bonus that noone wants.

    It is very strong, though other tanks had very strong set bonuses earlier.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ballfro View Post
    I don't think its abusive at all actually. In fact, we are giving up a pretty decent heal in order to do that damage so its not like it will be en endless spam of WoG offensively. Yes my testing shows it pretty OP, however that was against something not hitting me back. Im sure there would be several times where I will need that heal more than the damage and will not choose the glyph. They made the glyph for a reason...I highly doubt they will nerf this seeing as its good, but also a pretty big choice to take it too. I think it stays personally.
    But we're not giving up a heal with this glyph. We're not giving up anything, actually. Using HW glyph doesn't preclude you from using WOG as a heal, just gives the option to use it as a nuke as well.The whole point is that offensive use of WOG (a la HW) doesn't currently consume BOG stacks, meaning that we still have our BOG's stored for an emergency.

    And even so, I WOG maybe 1-2x per fight, so even though you're attacking something static, I can't see a huge change in any uptimes unless you're in some crazy situation where your healers are dead/asleep. Even if that were the case, spamming WOG > ShotR means you're casting 0-BOG WOGs, which is hardly CYA healing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I think both scenarios are probable, they could nerf it, or they could keep it. Step one is that, other tanks have been allowed to have siginifcantly higher damage output than other tanks *cough* monks, that has not been an issue, I dont even know if this pushes paladins to the #1 spot to be honest.

    They created the HW glyph for a reason, if they change anything, it will have gone an entire expansion without having any viable use.

    They would have to completely redesign the 4p again, or be faced with yet another set bonus that noone wants.

    It is very strong, though other tanks had very strong set bonuses earlier.
    Well yes, but they've said all along that they don't mind monks being propped up because it "increases representation", which apparently is a key indicator for them. Pala rep is already sky high, so I know that we're under a microscope. Plus, all the whiners crying out about "MAH HASTE GEERZ!" already put us under scruitny.

    I'm not saying the HW glyph is the problem, merely that it's interation with th 4pc (in NOT consuming BOG stacks) is likely unintended. I'd imagine it stays as is but consumes the stacks, to make it an actual choice instead of a no-brainer, free source of non-trivial damage. I don't see how they intended the 4-set to be a damage increaser, which is what it will turn out to be, so I could also see them making HW not function, only "defensive" WOGs....doesn't it even specify "WOG" on the bonus?

    Anyhow, yeah it is very strong, and like all of the other tank set bonuses (our previous iterations included) they all got nerfed/changed. I can see that happening on this one too, esp once the word gets out.
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  4. #44
    Yeah, HW was for sure not the intent of the 4p, but it just tells how clueless they are about paladin tanking design. The only time they can make a good set bonus is when they make it by accident.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, HW was for sure not the intent of the 4p, but it just tells how clueless they are about paladin tanking design. The only time they can make a good set bonus is when they make it by accident.
    If I don't misunderstand the reason why this is good (Harsh Words not consuming the BoG stacks and thus not losing the free cast), then it's obvious that it'll get fixed as that's just an unintended bug. You sound very much like a whiner with this post, if that is the case.
    I'm not a native English speaker, and yet, I don't suck at English. The argument "English is not my mother tongue" doesn't actually give you an excuse to do so.

  6. #46
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    lol for that comment... dont do it FF, just dont do it
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxiye View Post
    If I don't misunderstand the reason why this is good (Harsh Words not consuming the BoG stacks and thus not losing the free cast), then it's obvious that it'll get fixed as that's just an unintended bug. You sound very much like a whiner with this post, if that is the case.
    But maybe, just maybe:
    - he is right.
    - he knows how good tier bonuses where for prot in MoP. (ProTip: They weren't.)
    - Blizzard will more likely completely forbid using HW with the 4P, instead of it simply removing the BoG stacks, thus making it at least interesting but not broken.

    And excuse me, but you very much sound like a clueless idiot with this post.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxiye View Post
    If I don't misunderstand the reason why this is good (Harsh Words not consuming the BoG stacks and thus not losing the free cast), then it's obvious that it'll get fixed as that's just an unintended bug. You sound very much like a whiner with this post, if that is the case.
    The problem is that it's good only because we can abuse it to the ridiculous amount, probably on par with when a few tiers ago they fucked up with talents and you could get LoH w/o a cooldown.

    Now this is bad because
    a) without it the 4p is fairly lackluster
    b) the entire time they've tested it on ptr it was glitched, so if they fix it now, it basically means that all testing on ptr WITH it is 100% invalid
    c) based on a+b we can establish that blizzard still doesn't understand what tanks want after entire expansion (at least)

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxiye View Post
    If I don't misunderstand the reason why this is good (Harsh Words not consuming the BoG stacks and thus not losing the free cast), then it's obvious that it'll get fixed as that's just an unintended bug. You sound very much like a whiner with this post, if that is the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    The problem is that it's good only because we can abuse it to the ridiculous amount, probably on par with when a few tiers ago they fucked up with talents and you could get LoH w/o a cooldown.

    Now this is bad because
    a) without it the 4p is fairly lackluster
    b) the entire time they've tested it on ptr it was glitched, so if they fix it now, it basically means that all testing on ptr WITH it is 100% invalid
    c) based on a+b we can establish that blizzard still doesn't understand what tanks want after entire expansion (at least)
    I think you both misunderstand. That is not the way Harsh Word is working. It DOES consume the BoG stacks, but once you get to 5 HP, and use it then, its can be done very very often after that, especially with DP talent chosen. Its not a bug, its working as intended. Just to clarify: when you use WoG on an enemy while the Harsh Word Glyph is active it does indeed clear the BoG stacks.

  10. #50
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    Hopefully Harsh Words interaction with the t16 4p will be addressed, I don't like the idea of 5.4 shipping like that. Harsh Words as a concept is fine as far as I'm concerned, my problem with it though is that it shouldn't really be a go-to glyph for damage purposes. Since it's dropping HP into something with no tanking benefits. Obviously the nature of this set up would compensate in some fashion, but it goes against what tanking is based on.

    Now, the same argument can be leveled at the legendary quest items, the meta and cloak, but I feel there's a difference between itemisation and core gameplay. A mechanical shift of this nature is a bad direction to take because, as mentioned, it foregoes all the well-designed active mitigation design in favor of prioritising damage output over input, with output as a by-product.

    -

    To talk about the main top of the thread SS vs EF (some people actually want to know my opinion on this, bizarrely), I think overall this is a good change. It's facilitated a discussion that otherwise would not have been possible.

    I've held off posting anything on the topic because I'm still not sure exactly how I feel on the subject. Keep that in mind if you do plan on taking what I say here too seriously.

    Just to restate the obvious, EF has become madly more potent than SS now due to the changes that have accumulated over the last few patches. EF has some nice trade offs that makes it competitive with SS, for that reason I feel it's best to keep an open mind with the whole topic.

    SS has the benefit of consistent mitigation, minimal impact on the rotation and no cost.

    EF significantly alters gameplay, provides inconsistent benefit and has a rather hefty cost in the grand scheme of things. The discussion is ultimately about if it's new potency is worth the cost.

    As someone who raided 25 man in t14 and 10 man in t15, I feel EF is more potent in 25 man, and will likely become the norm for that portion of the player base.

    Here's why, in 25 man you're rarely at full health. Most 25 man healers hate tank healing and hate you. Yes, you. As a result it's not uncommon to have only one healer assigned to MT healing with varying amounts of cross healing. As a result you're only really ever topped just intime for the next swing to drop you back down to half health.

    In this scenario, EF will see the minimal overhealing to give the return it needs to dominate Sacred Shield.

    In a 10 man scene, you have a few other factors. The damage is obviously less and you don't have an assigned healer, but that being said in my experience you tend to spend a lot more time topped. As a result you're getting EF overheals and killing it's efficiency.

    The question then becomes 'can you get your healer to let you float lower to increase it's worth?'

    There are two issues I have with that. Firstly, any experienced healer will not allow that to happen, be it intentional or not. Letting your tank float low goes against every healer instinct ever established. Secondly, with healer mana being a none-issue in the current model, if you're asking to be left alone to let your EF tick, it's pointless anyway. Healers neglect their tank when necessary, but in all other circumstances the default behaviour is to heal the tanks.

    During all this you need to balance it against the loss of SoTR usage, BoG, the overhealing of the ~600k WoG which is wasted on getting the EF ticks.

    On the whole, EF in 10 mans isn't looking good. But I wouldn't be quick to dismiss it. A 200k vengeance EF with 5 stacks of BoG ticks for a phenomenal amount. On a fight where it'll see use it'll probably be brilliant. I plan to keep an open mind with it, I think on the whole I'd prefer to stick with SS, but you know what they say about old habits...and heroin.

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  11. #51
    has it occured to anyone that the HW - build is a bug? I mean the Tooltip of the glyph on live says it "does not work with Eternal Flame".

    this would also fix this missuse.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroom View Post
    has it occured to anyone that the HW - build is a bug? I mean the Tooltip of the glyph on live says it "does not work with Eternal Flame".

    this would also fix this missuse.
    The HW build got nothing to do with eternal flame.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #53
    I´m not a paladin so this might or might not be completely irrelevant but still, figured i´d toss it into the discussion. With solo-tanking being more or less a thing of the past, how is the effectiveness of SS/EF when your friend is tanking? SS is easily thrown on the other tank when he taunts. EF could be used to toss in quite alot(?) of healing on a select few persons including that other tank.

  14. #54
    In case anyone else interested has missed it: On the latest PTR, HW no longer functions with t16 4pc.

    @Choice - I agree with your assessment of EF's shortcomings largely due to rotational issues and opportunity costs with missed ShotRs. However, given the interaction with t16 4pc, meaning that EF is now truly free AND allows for 2x the DP fishing procs, do you feel that changes its viability? I haven't had a chance to raid with it on PTR, but purely from a mechanical/rotational perspective, the interaction with EF and 4pc is quite smooth and actually yields a (very) high uptime on ShotR AND the WOG glyph.

    BOG stacks come back quite quickly as well, although EF is frequently over-written which does seem to cut into it's pure efficiency (on a per-cast basis). Still, though, it's always "free" so it's not a huge loss as I can make out. Additionally, you do pick up a free global every ~25-30 sec from not having to maintain SS.

    I'm not off of the SS bandwagon yet, as a 10H raider, but I am considering it when I do get 4pc t16 and make the swap from t15 4pc, as it does feel a bit more smooth. Should also have a markedly higher HP pool at that point (thanks to vial and ilvl inflation) which would allow for EF to have more "room" to work with than my current ~740k pool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  15. #55
    To be honest, I feel like this is a good design by blizzard. Both talents are viable and both serve some use in different scenarios. The only person that is wrong right now is any person that claims that one of the choices is flat out better in all scenarios. They both have scenarios where when is superior than the other. I am however leaning a bit towards EF being better overall.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    To be honest, I feel like this is a good design by blizzard. Both talents are viable and both serve some use in different scenarios. The only person that is wrong right now is any person that claims that one of the choices is flat out better in all scenarios. They both have scenarios where when is superior than the other. I am however leaning a bit towards EF being better overall.
    I'd agree with that as long as there is the caveat of "as long as you have 4p t16". Otherwise, I feel like the opportunity cost of giving up ShotRs and the disruption of/interference with your rotation when using EF is too offputting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #57
    I'm a bit confused as to why there's not much talk of using EF as a raidhealing tool. With 4t16, we'll be overwriting those 3 (or more) BoG stacks at least twice by the time we've to use it on ourselves to refresh the HoT.
    In that time, those 2 or 3 FREE (4t16) and DP proccing EF's could go on the raid and even if they get the (correct me if I'm wrong here) -100% healing modifier because they're not used on ourselves, with EF scaling with -everything-, they ought to heal a decent bit?

    I see no drawback.

    I like they've fixed 4t16 and HW interaction, our "rotation" would've been a mindless frenzy of buttonpushing for huge benefit with no apparent downside. I especially like it's been a very fast fix and didn't leave us hanging and guessing.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I like they've fixed 4t16 and HW interaction, our "rotation" would've been a mindless frenzy of buttonpushing for huge benefit with no apparent downside. I especially like it's been a very fast fix and didn't leave us hanging and guessing.
    Fast fix? It has been like that for what? 2-3 weeks?

    Other than that, yes EF is great for blanketing the raid. Only raid fight I ever used HA on was Garalon in HoF, then I used to blanket the entire raid with EF before a stomp. Great raid healing.

    What happens when you cast WoG/EF on a party member with the p4 btw? since you do not consume BoG stacks casting it on others.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #59
    Tossing out free EFs on the raid/your co-tank will definitely be doable and a net gain assuming you can do so without letting your uptime drop. I often can get 2-3 free EF's from 4pc before the buff falls from me, so it shouldn't be difficult. Just another way to differentiate good from great, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Tossing out free EFs on the raid/your co-tank will definitely be doable and a net gain assuming you can do so without letting your uptime drop. I often can get 2-3 free EF's from 4pc before the buff falls from me, so it shouldn't be difficult. Just another way to differentiate good from great, I suppose.
    Or just another macro to cast it on focus target.

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