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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Or just another macro to cast it on focus target.
    Well, yeah you can focus macro your co-tank or anyone who will be taking consistent/sustained damage, and get ~50-80% out of it. I meant more along the lines of using it on the fly, as the situation may call for it. Honestly, you're only going to see a slight minority bothering with that (which I probably won't be in myself), but it's another one of those utter min/max opportunities.

    Me personally? I'll opt to just toss it about on my Co-tank unless I see someone in dire need of a save (where I would normally use LOH instead).
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  2. #62
    I know for sure I am not just gonna have a focus macro for it. I am so used to be casting WoG in 25 man raids from cataclysm that casting EF in a 10 man raid is not a big deal. I am probably gonna make a macro that casts EF on friendly target mouseover, if no mouseover then self cast.
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  3. #63
    I kinda keep waiting for them to revert the +40% to EF HoT heals for Prot, but it keeps not happening.

  4. #64
    I was on the PTR earlier and wasn't able to cast EF on anyone else with the free buff, it either failed or consumed holy power if I had enough. Am I being slow and misunderstanding what's being suggested or has this been "fixed"?

  5. #65
    Appears to have been fixed.

  6. #66
    Darn.. there goes my dream of being a triple role package in one spec. Tank with it's nontrivial dps and some raidhealing through 4t16 free EF's :/

    That really is a shame. It'll very rarely be worth casting EF's on anyone else without the freebie pass of the tier. I'd love raidhealing utility on prot spec, it would suit it (as it has in the past).

  7. #67
    Problem is, as always, casuals.

    Blizzard is forced to balance the spec/class/set bonus around what the casual player can handle/comprehend, which in turn hamstrings the unique and creative uses dreamed up by the top 5% of the players.

    On the one hand, it does make for a much more transparent game, as most players may not have even considered using EF on multiple party members to blanket them, for free, while keeping self-EF up. However, if they (Blizz) had allowed that, it would basically REQUIRE that play from the top tier raiders to perfrom at 100%, and we'd see them either 1) nerf the bonus mid-patch or 2) design content around that expectation.

    Path of least resistance deems it necessary to gut the complex ideas like this for the sake of simplicity, even if it removes that extra layer of skill.

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    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  8. #68
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Darn.. there goes my dream of being a triple role package in one spec. Tank with it's nontrivial dps and some raidhealing through 4t16 free EF's :/

    That really is a shame. It'll very rarely be worth casting EF's on anyone else without the freebie pass of the tier. I'd love raidhealing utility on prot spec, it would suit it (as it has in the past).
    They could always turn Paladins into how Justicar Clerics are in Rift: You keep threat via healing the party/raid and most of your consumers revolve around healing (Doctrine of Loyalty FTW ), so instead of doing damage you are basically a tank+healer all in one. Glyph of Battle Healer on steroids

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  9. #69
    I actually loved that "healer-tank" concept, and did a fair bit of modeling around using WoG-driven healer threat back in Cata's beta before they nerfed WoG threat. The problem, of course, is that with WoW's really rigid "holy trinity" of class roles, it does weird things to encounter design. Hypothetically speaking, if a Bear does no raid healing but as much damage as a dps, while a paladin tank does almost no dps at all but can put out half-a-healer's worth of healing under most situations, calibrating encounter difficulty across a raid's worth of different mechanics becomes a huge headache.

    Plus, with the benefit of hindsight, I do wonder if part of my love for that approach was how OP it would have been in raids.

    Other MMOs I've raided in tend to be *much* less rigid about defining class and spec roles, which also means they have to be far less precise in terms of tuning encounter difficulty because god only knows what exactly what the players are going to throw at a fight. Its not uncommon in DDO to do "quests" (6-man instances) without a healer or conventional tank (lots of kiting or just try to burn everything down before it kills you) and serious, dedicated tanks are rare outside of the harder raids.

  10. #70
    Just wondering if maybe EF might have less overhealing in 10m vs 25m. I feel it's much easier to let my healers rely on my EF to keep me up in my 10m raid than it would be in 25m.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ElChig View Post
    Just wondering if maybe EF might have less overhealing in 10m vs 25m. I feel it's much easier to let my healers rely on my EF to keep me up in my 10m raid than it would be in 25m.
    Given how 25's do more damage than 10's and are thus more spiky, healers tend to want to keep the tank closer to full in case of spikes or other crap going on. Despite EF healing for more due to more vengeance, it'll probably have more overhealing in 25's because of more healers keeping you up and such.
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  12. #72
    Herald of the Titans Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Given how 25's do more damage than 10's and are thus more spiky, healers tend to want to keep the tank closer to full in case of spikes or other crap going on. Despite EF healing for more due to more vengeance, it'll probably have more overhealing in 25's because of more healers keeping you up and such.
    Also compare how 10m has 2 or sometimes 3 people keeping an eye out on the tank while 25m can have 5-7 that keep an eye out for the tank. Also 25m allows much more diverse healer comp so you can have: Disc priest shielding, Resto Druid HoTs, Resto Shaman shield + Riptide, HPala EF.

    So much more "Passive" healing in 25m goes to tanks and most of the time you only need 1 dedicated tank healer to really keep them up(Disc Priests are fantastic for this kind of job in 25m).

    In 10m raid healing done by DPS/Tanks matter much more than 25m since 2 healers can only output so much. Magaera is a good example, both tanks are taking massive damage and raid is also taking moderate damage through some means. In 25m this isn't really an issue due to the increased healer count(we had 1 dedicated tank healer per tank in our 25m Magaera HC kill) which allows flexibility in how healers prioritize healing targets.

    Also dispelling was much easier in 25m because Dispel costs 1 GCD, in 10m that can be very brutal when healers are already limited due to having to constantly keep healing tanks. Basically you can't slack in 10m as a Healer, in 25m as say a Resto Shaman or Hpala(RIP 5.4) you can attack the boss to gain mana for when it's needed more or as Disc Priest you can smite spam the boss for longer periods of time.

    TL;DR: 10m vs. 25m healing is different and both modes value different aspects of healing in a different way(absorb, hot, direct, aoe heals)

  13. #73
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    I had a look at the 4pt16 and EF yesterday on the PTR doing the current LFR wing. I have to say, I like it! Alot actually.

    Playing with EF instead of SS just feels smoother and more natural. With Gearscaling of 496 I had about 70-80k every 1.99secs which is fine I guess. Vengeance was around 80-100k. I only cast EF at 5 BoG.

    Especially on fights like Iron Juggernaut with this crazy damage phases where you don't have to tank the boss at all, it's great to blanket the raid with EF instead of just using your HP for SoTR.

    I'm still unclear however what's the best way to handle EF / BoG Stacks (with 4pt16).

    What I did:

    - Pull - get 3 HP, cast EF
    - After that, get 5 BoG stacks and recast EF whenever you have 5 BoG stacks (4pt16)
    - I usually had 10-15 secs left on EF when I had 5 BoG stacks to recast it
    - I just made sure not to waste any BoG stacks - it's abit silly if you get a DP proc with the SoTR that gives you the 5th BoG stack, but not much you can do about that I guess.
    - Sometimes it's better do delay that EF recast at the cost of BoG stacks, if you need the heal to actually heal you back up (like if you know you take alot of damage in 5 secs or sth like that)


    Sounds about right? Or sth wrong in there?


    What about having EF up on your CO-Tank. It's abit easier compared to SS (because you can have multiple EF up).

    When playing with EF, you should always have an EF rolling on your Co-Tank - Especially if you're currently not tanking and he is (SoTR damage < EF heal for 30 secs).


    And how do you handle EF without 4pt16? Handle it as you would SS - recast it before it falls off with 5 Stacks of BoG but don't clip it too hard, so you don't lose too many SoTR?


    And something I just don't know (shame on me) - can you overwrite a high EF with a low EF?

    Let's say you have a 5 BoG 100k vengeance Hot rolling on yourself. When you're hot has about 22 seconds left, you take seriously hard damage / your healer is out of range because he failed or whatever / something goes seriously wrong and you need to WoG (EF) yourself. You only had 2 BoG Stacks hat the time and roughly the same vengeance because damage intake didn't spike that hard (or didn't give you any vengeance, because you stood in a very bad AoE ground effect whatever).

    My guess is, your 2 stack EF overwrites your 5 stack EF and you actually hurt yourself in the long run.

    So playing with EF, you really need to make sure to not WoG/EF yourself at the wrong moments / hardly at all. It's not that unforgiving if you play with SS because there is nothing to overwrite, but when you play EF you can seriously cripple your selfhealing if you are used to WoG yourself alot or if you don't like sitting at 30% HP for too long (even though it might be totally fine and you wouldn't die). Do you get what I mean?

    What's your take on that?
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  14. #74
    Best way to tank is if there are 2 tanks, have the other start untill you get BoG at 5 stacks, taunt, use some cooldown till you get a bit of vengeance, then throw it on you.

    Also, as far as using it on the other tank, keep in mind, at average mastery levels right now, BoG results in EF doing 150% more ON YOU, and it already has a scaling giving 100% more on you, so it will do 250% less on anyone else you cast it on, I calculated it a while ago, at 250k AP, not vengeance, since on average in SoO gear you will be around 45-50k AP without any buffs, getting 200k vengeance isn't that hard to get I would assume once you start heroics. Anyway, at 250k AP, 5 BoG stacks and the 100% selfheal EF ticks for 172k, with about a 520k initial heal.

    Ontop of that, you need to remember that it is a HoT, and therefor it snapshots your current stats, AP, Haste, Mastery and AW, so it will be a good idea that right after you pop AW, you use the 5 stack BoG EF, and at the last second, you refresh it with another 5 stack BoG, this is achieveable easily with all talents, DP might not always though, and having 1 more BoG stack beats AW.
    The best way to do this is, say start of a fight if you start tanking, lust is used on pull, you use AW when there is 20 seconds left of lust, so you not only get the healing benefit, but also the haste benefit.

    I will say this though, this is theorycrafting and in an actual fight things may be very different depending on what you need to do, but these are good things to keep in mind, especially since the 20% healing from AW is ontop of the 172k already being done.


    As far as using it to help out the other tank, I would say yes, use it when you can but make sure it's up on you, this is the power of paladin tanks, SS works the same way on 2 tank fights, use it when you're not tanking.
    When it comes to the raid, I would only use it if it's actually needed and healers are really struggling, and not in cases where healers are just using cheap heals to get them up because they know people wont suddenly drop dead, especially because EF with no vengeance and none of the buffs, it heals for barely anything at all.
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  15. #75
    There are not that many fights where you cant reach 5 stacks before you apply EF anyways. Most fights you start trying to build up vengeance anyway.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #76
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Not sure your answer helped me that much Kiea (no offence). But then again I was probably just looking for a yes / yes / yes / yes answer - or one of FFs philosophical answers on why it's wrong what I said and how it's being done better.

    It goes without saying that healing the raid with EF is not really useful in low-medium damage situation. But I wouldn't really say it doesn't heal for much. With 100k vengeance and 496 gear scaling my EF ticks critted for about 40k (crits are the only numbers I remember when they pop up). So with high haste and 550 itemlevel, that should be I guess about 30k every 1.5sec? That's not nothing! Should be quite strong on Iron Juggernaut P2 (which is basically a garalon on roids).

    I would go even so far to say that you need to play with EF on this fight to help out your healers, as damage intake is insanely high - unrelated to having 4pt16 or not.
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  17. #77
    What you said in your first post was sound and is probably how it is going to look

    What just should be added in the opening is that when you cast your first EF is gonna depend from boss to boss, no need to rush a 0 BoG EF if you are sitting at 20k vengenace. Sometimes you are maybe gonna cast a 2-3 BoG EF at the start once your vengeance ramped up, other times maybe you are gonna wait for the 5 BoG EF.

    Keeping EF on the off tank, hmm, depends on fight. Remember that EF wont really heal much since it gets no BoG stacks. It is probably only worth it when you are taking no physical damage / not tanking, in which case your veng is probably gonna be low aswell. Could be worth applying just after a tank switch since you still have decent vengeance then.

    You are probably gonna have to try to stop your fingers from using WoG once you go low Trust your EF heals and SotR reduction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    It goes without saying that healing the raid with EF is not really useful in low-medium damage situation. But I wouldn't really say it doesn't heal for much. With 100k vengeance and 496 gear scaling my EF ticks critted for about 40k (crits are the only numbers I remember when they pop up). So with high haste and 550 itemlevel, that should be I guess about 30k every 1.5sec? That's not nothing! Should be quite strong on Iron Juggernaut P2 (which is basically a garalon on roids)
    Yeah, for garalon fights it is really strong. With HA you can use it to blanket the entire raid with EF, it is like you said, 30k every 1.5 sec, then it is 200k hps on the raid from EF alone.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #78
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    aight, exactly what I was looking for - as always, thank you FF :-)
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  19. #79
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You are probably gonna have to try to stop your fingers from using WoG once you go low Trust your EF heals and SotR reduction.
    Oh goody, that's going to be fun to drill into my thick skull

    I am looking forward to EF though. SS is awesome right now but it feels so weird and out of place and it's such a crucial part of how we play. It'll be nice to get rid of that button almost entirely (at least until they change things around again if SS is buffed again). So it should be a goal to keep the HoT rolling as close to 100% as possible while still of course using SotR? So to go with Reimu2k3's idea the consumer "rotation" would be:

    EF (@3; pull only)
    SotR x5 (@5 as usual)
    EF (@5 w/5 BoG)

    So outside of the pull refresh EF at 5 BoG stacks, with SotR in between naturally. I haven't been able to test anything on the PTR so are the tank swap fights like Horridon and Ji-kun or Durumu where there's a castable ability (well TP doesn't have a cast, but you can time it) that you need to time SotR to cover the global where you'll get the debuff hit?

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  20. #80
    Are there any Durumu type fights in SoO that reduce your healing taken? If so I imagine I know what talent I'll pick for them!

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