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  1. #21
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arel00 View Post
    It buffs both components, HoT included. Tested.
    Ah, it didn't used to work that way. I wonder when it was changed.

  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    So, to sum things up - EF is stronger on paper if it's overheal is lower than 50%. Otherwise take SS. Thats the consens I'm getting from here.

    But:

    - Doesn't EF change our Rotation significantly which adds another layer of complexity to a already unforgiving rotation at max haste? You pretty much need to make sure that you have 5 Bastion stacks and 3 HP ready to go when EF comes off or is about to come off.
    - What about factoring in the loss of SoTR uptime and the gain of block (2pt15)?
    - You pretty much take away the "oh shit 5 bastion WoG" option to safe your own ass since all bastion stacks go into EF

    In a 6 minute fight you will lose 12 SoTR (recast EF every 30 seconds). That is if you use EF with 3 HP for maximal effectiveness which I guess is the point of comparison. So that means you will lose 36 seconds of SoTR, which - in a 6 minute fight - translates to 10% less uptime. That's quite alot! Not accounting for the lost damage by SoTR (which is about 2 Million in total damage in current gear, tortos hc)

    But in exchange you will gain 40% block for 180 seconds of the fight (50% of the fight). (with 4p15)

    Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned here - doesn't EF mess up our active mitigation system for when we really need it? Let's take a look at a tortos / raden / horridon like fight where we need to pool / time our HP so line up with the next big hit. We now have the option to either take the hit and heal back up with EF (hopefully the hit doesnt kill us) or use SoTR and wait for another 3 HP to recast EF - which pushes EF further back and devalues it even more.


    What's your take on that? (and when I say you, I mostly mean prom, ff, nb - but others are welcome aswell)
    Last edited by Riemu2k3; 2013-08-16 at 09:01 PM.
    RL, GM and Pally Tank for 10-man Guild Plage, EU-Gorgonnash
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    snip
    I only see it really beneficial once you get the T16 4P.
    That way it won't be a loss at all, and opens up 'Glyph of Word of Glory' for use.
    It might also have a interesting synergy with DP.

    But this is really a long shoot.
    I haven't seen the tier chest drop this tier, so I'm not excepting to see it at all next patch either.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    I only see it really beneficial once you get the T16 4P.
    That way it won't be a loss at all, and opens up 'Glyph of Word of Glory' for use.
    It might also have a interesting synergy with DP.

    But this is really a long shoot.
    I haven't seen the tier chest drop this tier, so I'm not excepting to see it at all next patch either.
    Seems like a no-brainer but I'm going to ask it anyway - has it been confirmed that 4pt16 works with EF? Only lists WoG on the text.

    Another thing - if you're running with at least 2pt16, doesn't that devalue the strength of EF even more? As it shapes up to me at the moment, you're going to game divine protection even without 4pt15 because of the synergy with the tank meta and the cd reduce trinkets. So you're going to have ANOTHER hot rolling (10 secs) on you for the time between tank meta and divine prot come off cd.
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  5. #25
    @Riemu - To me, there are so many "If's" involved in making EF look good, that I just don't see it as a go-to talent. Like I've said, I think it will be great for solo play and probably some very niche uses in fights, but let's look at it compared to SS:

    EF is stronger HPS total, but with a vast amount of that (50-80%) being overheal.
    EF serves the same purpose/role that we already get with SOI, being the "buffer heals" that pad us back up after hits taken.
    EF does not provide any EH/survival WRT large hits, unlike SS which gives nontrivial absorbs on a short CD/tick.
    EF does tick faster (~100% faster) than SS does.
    EF scales in power with mastery AND haste AND V. SS only with haste/V.
    EF gaining power does NOT mean it performs more effectively though, as we are already dealing with high majority overheal.

    Using EF precludes you from using SS (duh), which means that you've got no self-cast absorbs as the trade-off for having two forms of fast-tick self heals. Seeing as how SOI already does a moderate amount of overheal, I don't [personally] find the need for a second source of that same HPS.

    FURTHER

    You have to account for (as you have) the HoPo that is "lost" by using EF. This means less DPS, less ShotR uptime, AND the lack of a powerful WOG for an on-demand heal (since you'll be using it rotationally). That alone is nearly enough reason [for me] to not bother with EF. The amount of micro it takes to manage properly, and the opportunity cost that you incur in doing so, set you back markedly in overall survival for the tradeoff of more HPS (overheal).

    Now, that gets mitigated SOME with the use of 4p t16 I suppose. And you can tack on the WOG glyph to factor in some recouped DPS. But you're still stuck without any absorbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanko View Post
    I only see it really beneficial once you get the T16 4P.
    That way it won't be a loss at all, and opens up 'Glyph of Word of Glory' for use.
    It might also have a interesting synergy with DP.

    But this is really a long shoot.
    I haven't seen the tier chest drop this tier, so I'm not excepting to see it at all next patch either.
    I wouldn't even consider EF without 4pc, as the loss in ShotR uptime is equivalent to ~10% haste lost. I still don't like not having absorbs NOR a banked 5 BOG WOG, but I've played that card. I think you can make a case, as I did above, for the "best case scenario" to min/max EF by using WOG glyph, 4pt16, and DP...but again you're looking at a lot of factors and outside assistance to prop up a talent (that we already get a decent version of with SOI for free).

    Anyhow, I'm done beating that dead horse.

    Also, I feel you on the tier chest
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    Seems like a no-brainer but I'm going to ask it anyway - has it been confirmed that 4pt16 works with EF? Only lists WoG on the text.

    Another thing - if you're running with at least 2pt16, doesn't that devalue the strength of EF even more? As it shapes up to me at the moment, you're going to game divine protection even without 4pt15 because of the synergy with the tank meta and the cd reduce trinkets. So you're going to have ANOTHER hot rolling (10 secs) on you for the time between tank meta and divine prot come off cd.
    - AfaIk it works with EF. At least I haven't seen/heard anyone say otherwise.

    - With the 2P we would have to check, whenever it gets devalued by SS or EF more. But it also depends on how much external healing do you receive. Then we would also have to factor in how much over-heal it would cause to the healers, etc...
    But if there is high damage phase, the ting we are concerned about, then I do believe that we can assume lower overheal rates than normal. And that is the only place where it matters in a survivability standpoint. In sustained high damage. This way I don't think that it is that important. But I almost completely forgot about the 2P, as not many are concerned about it, so I might miss things here.

  7. #27
    Maybe there will be times when we can EF on dps/other tank to keep them alive? Maybe another advantage of EF over SS.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ElChig View Post
    Maybe there will be times when we can EF on dps/other tank to keep them alive? Maybe another advantage of EF over SS.
    It would loose the +100% self-cast mod, and any bonus form Bastion of Glory (another extra 3-5x ~40%).
    That would cut it by ~83%*, so it would be pointless.
    x*2*(1+5*0.4); x*2*3; x*6; 5/6=83.33%;

  9. #29
    Plus, fuck other people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #30
    Just to clarify: EF is stronger then 5.4 SS when overhealing is less than 65%, and stronger than the live SS when it's less than 50% at three stacks of BoG. At five stacks it's a LOT stronger, but it's way more bothersome to give it 100% uptime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by arel00 View Post
    Just to clarify: EF is stronger then 5.4 SS when overhealing is less than 65%, and stronger than the live SS when it's less than 50% at three stacks of BoG. At five stacks it's a LOT stronger, but it's way more bothersome to give it 100% uptime.
    That conclusion falls short on a few points.

    1. You presume SS do not overheal
    2. You presume damage intake is semi constant
    3. You presume no attack is powerful enough to one-shot you
    4. You presume that you cant die in a period that is shorter than your tick speed of SS / EF

    As ususal, tanks are rarely interested in throughput, throughput is not the best measurement for tanking survivability (atleast overall throughput).
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-08-16 at 11:15 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    That conclusion falls short on a few points.

    1. You presume SS do not overheal
    2. You presume damage intake is semi constant
    3. You presume no attack is powerful enough to one-shot you
    4. You presume that you cant die in a period that is shorter than your tick speed of SS / EF

    As ususal, tanks are rarely interested in throughput, throughput is not the best measurement for tanking survivability (atleast overall throughput).
    Got to agree on the thoughts on throughput, it's why I'm such a big pusher of EF in solo play only but the dynamic changes entirely in group play with healers involved.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Animma View Post
    Got to agree on the thoughts on throughput, it's why I'm such a big pusher of EF in solo play only but the dynamic changes entirely in group play with healers involved.
    I am not saying the EF is bad though, I am very sure I will find some use for it in T16. Just saying that people need to look past recount. I actually like the EF/SS changes, it creates some dynamic.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #34
    You should have contextualized my post before commenting then. I was clarifying over a previous post merely because my statement of a mathematical figure at 3 stacks of BoG suddenly got used as reference in a discussion that took for granted using EF at 5 stacks, which was incorrect.

    I've been trying to model stuff for real using timelined parses for a while now, but it's much more complex than even the points you (correctly) cited. Variations on healers composition, e.g., change the results quite a lot. As for my gut feeling well... I'd say best case we're looking at a fight per fight swap, worst case EF wins hands down. And I'm saying that because I like choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  15. #35
    I've toyed around on it on the PTR and i'll tell you, from my prospective anyway, the best way to go when you get the 4 piece is SS. Basically because of one thing: Glyph of Harsh Words. This screenshot was taken on the PTR after doing around 25 million damage to the raid boss target dummy.

    I wanted to edit this to note that I used Divine Purpose for this test.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by Ballfro; 2013-08-18 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Added talent choice

  16. #36
    Using the t16 4p and Glyph of Harsh Words to proc extra Shotr's through Divine purpose to do extra damage and have an even higher uptime on Shotr. Thoughts?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezkaton-GG View Post
    Using the t16 4p and Glyph of Harsh Words to proc extra Shotr's through Divine purpose to do extra damage and have an even higher uptime on Shotr. Thoughts?
    Of course, this is gonna be great. Said it since they revealed the latest 4p.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #38
    That looks... righteously violent
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  19. #39
    I have a feeling they might nerf/prevent WoG from being used offensively with the 4p T16. That looks like it might be a significant source of damage and they don't seem keen on us getting even more of that.

    Something to keep in mind when discussing EF and SS is they both scale with haste. Due to having more ticks pop more often, EF scales quite well with haste while SS does less so. If a prot pally had 50% haste (21250 haste rating) from gear (which is starting to happen now and will easily happen in T16), and was using SoI and had the raid spell haste buff, they'd be at 17 ticks and just a stone's throw away from 18 ticks (which occurs at about 21894 haste rating). Compare to SS's 9th tick at about 20055 haste, with its 10th at 27414 haste rating.

    If anyone's curious on how I got those numbers, Theck did a spreadsheet near the beginning of MoP specifically for prot, and I adapted it for holy too. I'll port it over to Google Drive if people want to look at it.

    I can see prot going either way when it comes to EF vs SS, especially once 4p T16 comes into the mix. It all depends on the raid's strategy and what they're comfortable with. However, I think SS will still be the go-to general use talent because it's easy to use, only uses a GCD for resources, and it's an absorb so if you're getting hit it's always going to be useful.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    I have a feeling they might nerf/prevent WoG from being used offensively with the 4p T16. That looks like it might be a significant source of damage and they don't seem keen on us getting even more of that.
    I think this is a huge caveat that will get addressed, either on an upcoming PTR build or via a hotfix when more people use/abuse it. As above, and in previous tests done by others, HW glyph was accouting for a majority of damage done, compounded by 4pc and DP obv. Basically yielding chain procs of ShotR/HW, to a damage level that would be hard to believe is intended/acceptable.

    Something to keep in mind when discussing EF and SS is they both scale with haste. Due to having more ticks pop more often, EF scales quite well with haste while SS does less so. If a prot pally had 50% haste (21250 haste rating) from gear (which is starting to happen now and will easily happen in T16), and was using SoI and had the raid spell haste buff, they'd be at 17 ticks and just a stone's throw away from 18 ticks (which occurs at about 21894 haste rating). Compare to SS's 9th tick at about 20055 haste, with its 10th at 27414 haste rating.

    If anyone's curious on how I got those numbers, Theck did a spreadsheet near the beginning of MoP specifically for prot, and I adapted it for holy too. I'll port it over to Google Drive if people want to look at it.

    I can see prot going either way when it comes to EF vs SS, especially once 4p T16 comes into the mix. It all depends on the raid's strategy and what they're comfortable with. However, I think SS will still be the go-to general use talent because it's easy to use, only uses a GCD for resources, and it's an absorb so if you're getting hit it's always going to be useful.
    The haste scaling on SS is still linear though. Even if we are short of a breakpoint, we still get those ticks [slightly] faster with each extra point of haste. I know you know that, but just wanted to clarify.

    I'll personally be running t15 4pc for a good bit of progression, so I'm going to opt for SS for the resource/opportunity cost benefits, and for the fact that (to me) absorbs > steady HPS on progression. If/when I swap over to t16, I may go for 4pc and try to game it/DP for ShotR abuse, but a lot of that will also depend on how Harsh Words interacts with the bonus, if it even does, on live. Will definitely be a prime candidate for WOG glyph too, which can only add to the lulz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
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    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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