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  1. #181
    I think that at the end of the day, it was just a mistake. No one is infallible, even Thrall. Its just that the mistakes of people in positions of power tend to have larger consequences, you know?
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingBreezes View Post
    To be honest, the worst thing about Horde archetecture is how incredibly ineffective and easily destroyed it is. To take out an alliance fortress you need siege weapons and spies. To take out a Horde fortress you need some torches and a book to read while it all burns down.

  2. #182
    Of course it was a Mistake by Thrall, however if it wasn't for Thrall their would be no Azeroth, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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  3. #183
    The Patient
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    Thrall is a pussy and I so agree with this post. The fact of that he is way too soft and STILL a fan boy of Grom is a saddest thing about him. True his has saved the world twice and not he nearly ruin it by putting Garrosh in power. When your someone as influential as him, then any serious action he takes willl have a big impact for better or for worse. Thrall's fan boying has cost us ALOT: One of the wisest/badass leader of the tauren is dead. Troll's are now being hunted like jews by the orcish S.S waffen AKA the Korkron and the rest of the horde is being treated like dirt, everyone is pissed at Garrosh and want's him dead and alot feel the same for thall too. If he wasn't such a lick ass to the hellscream name and so soft in regards to Garrosh none of this would have happen in the first place. But the same time Thrall does keep his cool with his Even though he himself is mad enough is to actually kill Garrosh willingly as seen is the elemental invasion storyline. But still even if Garrosh was the one "right" successor for the horde doing cata. Thrall could had left safeguards in place in case Garrosh go Crazy but clearly hasn't cause his thought: Garrosh may be rough around the edges but he'll be a good warcheif. Yeah right a psycho madman who is willing to take over the word and kill all other race and THINKS he has a chance doing so was a good plan right? So yeah I believe that thrall is responsible for SOME Garrosh's actions by makeing him the warcheif of the horde.
    Last edited by Goradan; 2013-08-16 at 08:46 AM.
    Power never corrupts but it brings out ones true self. Think about that for a moment.

  4. #184
    Best decision Thrall made.

  5. #185
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletnips View Post
    Garrosh had great potential when Thrall appointed him and he even seemed like a good choice early Cataclysm. Thrall cannot predict the writers making Garrosh go apeshit, he was literally the only viable option for Warchief.
    Nazgrel existed and was a better option for a young experienced orc. Saurfang and Eltrigg were also good, though old.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Anakin skywalker.

    oh, is obi wan responsible for what he became?

    People are just wanting a scapegoat because there those kind of people.
    Why yes, Obi Wan is responsible, for he trained Anakin and he trained him wrong. He left the mistake go on for too long, and when he did eventually try to make it right, it was too late. He didn't act before out of sympathy for Anakin, which kind of defeats the idea of a jedi, no emotions and all that, you know? So basically Obi Wan showed Anakin that using your emotions is justified, thus making Anakin doubt other parts of the jedi code. So yes, Obi Wan is tehnically guilty of Darth Vader.

    And Thrall is guilty of Garrosh. He filled his head of how awesome his dad was but forgat to mention the faults his father had. Then he put him as a warchief and didn't even think something was wrong when Cairne was killed, at that time he still had time to correct the problem.
    Also, Thrall was selfish back then. He was thinking only at himself in a way. He had doubts and felt he shouldn't have left Grom died, this is why he put his son in charge. But Thrall was selfish, in the end before the Cataclysm, when 12 night elves were found skinned in the woods, Thrall was still warchief yet when he met Jaina he said he won't launch an investigation... because he'd look weak. So for him his image counted more then the good relations with his neighbours. That's selfish to the core.
    But then you say he's a flawed character... well yes, he was... but if you remember, in Cataclysm he fought his doubts, fears and all that when Fandral split his soul. So all his flaws are gone... in the blink of an eye. Yes, Thrall was an interesting character... but is not anymore. Now he is flawless and to show it he goes and tries to correct his mistake even if it means he might die, which shows how he cares more about the Horde then about himself, so no more flaw. And once Garrosh is dead, all the flaws Thrall ever had will be gone, for Garrosh was his last mistake.

  6. #186
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    oh here we go..

    Smoke some weed lately? you must have, your actually trying to find a scapegoat with one of wow's most noted heroes.

    Its like blaming batman for the creation of the joker.
    To be honest, there's actually a whole episode of Batman: TAS that focuses on the villains blaming their crimes on Batman, since he made many of them become the villains they are, like Two-Face and such, so that's not a good comparison tbh.

    OT: It was a misjudgement by Thrall for sure, acting like it wasn't is just ignorant. Garrosh never showed any Warchief qualities prior to becoming the Warchief, after the mishab in the Ulduar trailer you'd have to be a madman to appoint him to lead your people. Everyone could see it was a very poor decision too, everyone except Thrall. A new Warchief should have been appointed when Cairne died for sure, but hey, we're getting a badass raid out of it so I'm not complaining.

    Thrall is not an untouchable character, prior to Cataclysm he was actually a flawed person, like human beings are. After Cataclysm he has just become a flawed character in general though.
    Last edited by MasterOfKnees; 2013-08-16 at 10:49 AM.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    And Thrall is guilty of Garrosh. He filled his head of how awesome his dad was but forgat to mention the faults his father had. Then he put him as a warchief and didn't even think something was wrong when Cairne was killed, at that time he still had time to correct the problem. Also, Thrall was selfish back then. He was thinking only at himself in a way. He had doubts and felt he shouldn't have left Grom died, this is why he put his son in charge. But Thrall was selfish, in the end before the Cataclysm, when 12 night elves were found skinned in the woods, Thrall was still warchief yet when he met Jaina he said he won't launch an investigation... because he'd look weak. So for him his image counted more then the good relations with his neighbours. That's selfish to the core.
    He put Garrosh in charge because he was popular with his people, not because of some pity for his father. You can't lead the Horde if you are unpopular. Nobody would listen to you. He certainly felt something when he learned Cairne died. There was no real problem though. Cairne challenged Garrosh to a Mak'gora, Garrosh said it was to the death, Cairne agreed. His death was not due to some tyranny on Garrosh's part, Cairne chose his fate. The only person who really did wrong in that whole fiasco was Magatha.

    Looking at the actions of someone without looking at the reasoning behind them and looking at their reluctance to do them will never really give you a good picture of who that person is. It's not like Thrall didn't feel that it was important or that it was a good idea. It is simply the political theater of the Horde that forced his hand. As a leader, it wasn't that he refused to do it because he didn't want to purely for selfish reasons, it was because he had to or else his position would be compromised and he would no longer be able to lead as effectively... which really would have been rather bad for his people. You can call it selfish, and I think to a degree it is, but it's far more complicated than that.

    But then you say he's a flawed character... well yes, he was... but if you remember, in Cataclysm he fought his doubts, fears and all that when Fandral split his soul. So all his flaws are gone... in the blink of an eye. Yes, Thrall was an interesting character... but is not anymore. Now he is flawless and to show it he goes and tries to correct his mistake even if it means he might die, which shows how he cares more about the Horde then about himself, so no more flaw. And once Garrosh is dead, all the flaws Thrall ever had will be gone, for Garrosh was his last mistake.
    Inner peace doesn't mean your flaws are gone. Nor is anger, love, and doubt the whole of Thrall's imperfections (if you can call love an imperfection at all... more like a character point). Thrall is trusting and believes in an inner good in all of his people, to name one, the exact one that actually caused Garrosh to rise to power. That hasn't gone away.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-08-16 at 03:41 PM.

  8. #188
    I think this whole arc with Garrosh has a lot in common with the sprawling 90's "Batman" epic of Knightfall/Knightquest/KnightsEnd that saw Bruce Wayne have his back broken, entrust his mantle to an eager colleague who went completely off the rails, and later saw Bruce have to come back to reclaim his mantle, clean up the mess he made by picking the wrong guy.

    Is that not basically the Horde faction story arc across 4.x through 5.x?

  9. #189
    I say we kill all the Elves. It's their fault the land is in several pieces today, instead of one land mass. It's their fault, the Burning Legion is breathing down our necks.

    If they hadn't alerted the Burning Legion to our presences, the Orcs won't even be here.

    Stupid elves.

  10. #190
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    I say we kill all the Elves. It's their fault the land is in several pieces today, instead of one land mass. It's their fault, the Burning Legion is breathing down our necks.

    If they hadn't alerted the Burning Legion to our presences, the Orcs won't even be here.

    Stupid elves.
    I say we kill the titans because these Idiots are responsible for almost every major screw up. ;P
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfKnees View Post
    To be honest, there's actually a whole episode of Batman: TAS that focuses on the villains blaming their crimes on Batman, since he made many of them become the villains they are, like Two-Face and such, so that's not a good comparison tbh.
    I saw that episode. and it ended with the joker, playing judge, concluding that it was infact not batmans fault, all of them would have ended up as they were in some form or another regardless, they were just screwballs anyway. Concluding that, they decide to kill batman and his defense for the fun of it (which obviously fails)
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  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    oh here we go..

    Smoke some weed lately? you must have, your actually trying to find a scapegoat with one of wow's most noted heroes.

    Its like blaming batman for the creation of the joker.
    Wondered how long it would take for someone to blindly defend Thrall as the paragon of goodness.

    This IS his fault. If you're too blind to see that, you're too blind to see that it's a fantastic plot point. Thrall was the Warchief, leader of the Horde. There are no excuses when you're the leader; your decisions carry weight.

    Thrall chose to make Garrosh warchief, against the advice of all his most trusted friends and advisors. Vol'jin was against it, Cairne was against it, but Thrall did it anyway. And after the Cataclysm and Deathwing was defeated, he still didn't come back to take action against Garrosh who was already waging open war and taking the Horde down the dark path. I realize Thrall was still contributing to the Earthen Ring, but he did nothing to halt Garrosh and only took action when Orgrimmar was in peril, not when Theramore and his close friend Jaina was. Jaina's attitude towards the Horde is, at the root, Thrall's fault. That friendship is fractured if not broken because of his decision and his lack of decisive action afterwards.

    Here's what we need to understand about this: THIS IS NOT A BAD THING.

    Thrall screwed up, he made a huge HUGE mistake. To wave it away and pretend he has no part to share in the blame is unrealistic. And while he may have pushed the snowball down the mountain, he did NOT aim or control it as it grew larger and out of control. Garrosh is to blame for his actions, but yes, Thrall is responsible for putting him in the position to take that action.

    And nobody in the Horde, or even the Alliance most likely, will blame Thrall for this more than Thrall himself. Seriously, how could he not? The Horde is his creation, he's nurtured and guided it, and then his decision nearly ruined it. It's a fantastic plot point to explore and keeps Thrall relevant beyond "super power shaman helps save the day."

    And the correlation of Batman created the Joker is a long running theme in the Batman mythos. Batman created the Joker, criminals like the Joker created Batman. Batman Begins concludes with the very concept of escalation. Batman stepped outside the standard response to crime, now a criminal stepped up to a new level in the Joker. Batman's actions DID create the Joker, but Batman isn't coordinating the Joker's crimes. It's exactly identical to the Thrall/Garrosh situation.

    Edit Note:

    Thrall does come to help fix the mistake, but it's worth noting that he only does so when Garrosh turns on the Horde. Thrall seems completely okay with the outright slaughter of the Alliance with no mercy or quarter given, which raises a few questions as to how neutral and peaceful he really is towards the Alliance at this point. Stormwind's king did outright threaten Thrall and all his people, after all.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-08-16 at 03:38 PM.
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  13. #193
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Wondered how long it would take for someone to blindly defend Thrall as the paragon of goodness.
    Oh yes, because listening to a pessimistic whiner whos got a bone up his back end about a character and telling him what a load of garbage it all is, makes what I'm saying blind fanboyism.

    Profound logic. Let me tell you the facts of the matter sweetheart. I believe Thrall did make a mistake with Garrosh, but its a mistake he made with no choice and not enough time to debate it. It was a forced contrivance in the story that has to this way bared little reasonable sense to whats happened, and most agree the writers choices in cataclysm were poor ones.

    However, I'm not one of you negative sponges who just takes that, and tries to twist it into antisemitism for the sake of it. I like to look at the story and try to get some baring of what the characters are going though, and understand that.

    Thrall made a mistake, yes, does he regret that mistake, yes, is he now trying to rectify that mistake, YES. But none of thats ever going to be good enough for the op, because he comes into this with his own contrived view of the character, not what he does but just how the OP dislikes him, and tried to twist the facts to suit his view.

    And honestly, theres nothing to me taken serious from such people who do this. You know why I hate Garrosh so much? Because what he's doing right now is exactly how I pictured him doing it, turning into some insane tyrant with his mulling fanboys around him. Where as characters like Thrall, Tirion, Malfurion and even Jaina, I can trust to be more then a generic douche of a character and do what needs to be done.
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  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Oh yes, because listening to a pessimistic whiner whos got a bone up his back end
    Let me tell you the facts of the matter sweetheart.
    I'm not one of you negative sponges
    I like to look at the story and try to get some baring of what the characters are going though, and understand that.
    Because what he's doing right now is exactly how I pictured him doing it
    The general condescension of anyone who doesn't agree with you and your presentation of how you somehow above all others are in tune with the writers and all the characters more than anyone else is why it's generally hard to disagree with you in a manner of ongoing rational discussion.

    Outside of the forced "Only an orc can ever lead the Horde" how exactly did Thrall have no choice? If he expected to be gone for a temporary journey to Outland, why could any number of his trusted advisers not be made interim Warchief other than random youngblood that's been nothing but hot headed?

    I mean, I know the real reason is they were going to put Garrosh in place and needed a story excuse to explain it. I think we can agree game plans are devised with a very loose story in mind and then the details are worked to fill in the holes after the decisions have been made.

    You didn't initially state the OP was out of line so much as the mere concept of Thrall bearing responsibility was nonsense.

    There's still a lot of interesting potential with how Thrall's choice has repercussions, though. I'm hoping Blizzard doesn't just hand wave his feelings of responsibility and guilt to move on to the next adventure and all this is wrapped up in a neat little package. Why did he wait so long to take action? There's even the conspiracy theory argument that Thrall suspected this would happen and it was something the Horde needed that he couldn't offer, but it went too far (I don't buy it, but you gotta admit it's a great conspiracy theory for the Alliance to grumble and mull about in-lore). I just don't want to see it all laid at Garrosh's feet and his defeat means everything's hunky dory and happy afterwards.

    I'd still rather not see Thrall as Warchief. I just don't think the role fits how the character has developed anymore. He seems like he's more fit to be the Warchief's primary adviser and spiritual leader for his people.

    For the record, though, I think I've said before, while your posts frequently drive me up the wall and I don't agree with probably half of what you say, I like reading your posts. Even if we completely disagreed on everything (which we don't, mind you), I appreciate the passion for the lore and the characters.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-08-16 at 04:12 PM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Outside of the forced "Only an orc can ever lead the Horde" how exactly did Thrall have no choice? If he expected to be gone for a temporary journey to Outland, why could any number of his trusted advisers not be made interim Warchief other than random youngblood that's been nothing but hot headed?
    Because Garrosh was popular.

    Thrall's decision for choosing Garrosh was literally him acknowledging the guy was a hothead but thought that Vol'jin, Cairne, Eitrigg, and the rest of his advisors could lead him to becoming a better person. He openly admits that Garrosh wasn't the most optimal choice but he trusts in his friends to be able to keep him on a good path.

    You didn't initially state the OP was out of line so much as the mere concept of Thrall bearing responsibility was nonsense.
    As much as I have my reservations on Trassk at times... he did openly admitted that Thrall made this mistake (which inherently means he does have some responsibility over what happened). The difference is that he's saying that Thrall doesn't bear total responsibility and shouldn't be treated like such.

  16. #196

  17. #197
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acnoctus View Post
    Thrall's decision for choosing Garrosh was literally him acknowledging the guy was a hothead but thought that Vol'jin, Cairne, Eitrigg, and the rest of his advisors could lead him to becoming a better person. He openly admits that Garrosh wasn't the most optimal choice but he trusts in his friends to be able to keep him on a good path.
    so its their fault for not keeping a tight enough leash on Garrosh!

    We need someone to blame!!!!
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    so its their fault for not keeping a tight enough leash on Garrosh!

    We need someone to blame!!!!
    I say we blame Old Man Bortho, the high-pitched gnomish magic shopkeep.

    He's a dick.

  19. #199
    Thrall should be crucified to fullfill his historic mission as the green jesus that he is.

    This sounds harsh, but he will be resurrected by his green god, cause he is the green father of his green son. Visit his green family members and says farewell to his green horde, reaching the green skies.

    This will be his green legacy.

    Green Jesus - forever.

    On a serious note, the lack of creative story development such as new major characters lately, is frightening, Mister Metzen.

  20. #200
    It really feels that Blizzard is trying to make it so that both factions feel the same pain. The Alliance's king lost his wife during an uprising that caused a split faction of Stormwind (Defias). Right now, the original Warchief of the Azeroth Horde is going to fight off an uprising that has caused a split faction. Does this mean that Aggra might die? And maybe Thrall's son is going to be taking on a role similar to that of Anduin, trying to unite both sides, agreeing that they have their differences, but knowing that when it must happen, they will unite to repel the Legion.

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