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  1. #201
    I don't thing like OP, when garrosh become warchief he was not ready to this job yet.
    He was a great hero, and he wants to create a great horde, he has doubt about his father, and he's never known the truth about his father.
    He belive his father was a true hero, but his father only fix his wrong choise, Thrall helps Grom to see what he had made, and in the fight against manorroth Grom hit as hard as he can, it was a fight or you kill or you will die, Grom doesn't espect to die in battle.

    Grom drank the blood not because he was obligated but because he wants power, and Garrosh is doing exatcly what his father does.
    In my opinion the noble hero was the Thrall's father, the Durotan forstwolf, who doesn't drank the blood and was killed by his choise.

    Thrall has suffer so many thing since he was born, and those things made what he is, after theramore's fall Thrall made a choise to not back to be warchief, he made so much for horde, he creates the horde, after many years fighting, he wants to do something for himself, to be a shaman (he believes he can do more being a shaman than being a warchief).

    I think another hero needs to born and make the right decision.
    A leader is not something you can choose, it is the natural path, maybe it was the thrall's fault.
    I would like to see Jaina and Thrall being a friend again, they used to be a good friend, and Garrosh kills this friendship.
    Last edited by Rangoo; 2013-08-16 at 07:37 PM.

  2. #202
    Lol, Garrosh was trying to pvp as fury until pretty recently.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Asotcha View Post
    I think that at the end of the day, it was just a mistake. No one is infallible, even Thrall. Its just that the mistakes of people in positions of power tend to have larger consequences, you know?
    Fair point.

  4. #204
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digory Kirke View Post
    Ultimately, everything that has happened under the tyranny of Garrosh Hellscream falls on the shoulders of Thrall.
    No it doesn't. Garrosh doesn't get to dump his daddy issues onto Thrall, he's a grown man, and *older* than Thrall. Garrosh didn't know how to lead properly, he decided if he can't be loved he'll be feared. Thrall had nothing to do with that, his only mistake was thinking Garrosh was ready to be responsible as a leader of the Horde. Thrall is no more a villain in WoW than Richard the Lionheart is in Robin Hood for leaving his tyrannical asshole of a brother in charge when he left for the Crusade.
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  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Digory Kirke View Post
    Ultimately, everything that has happened under the tyranny of Garrosh Hellscream falls on the shoulders of Thrall. Even though he is considered a selfless hero, his decision to give the mantle of Warchief to Garrosh was a serious lack of judgement, discernment, wisdom, and (I believe) flawed moral character.

    Besides the CLEAR signs that Garrosh wasn't ready for the responsibility (his attacking Varian at a diplomatic meeting in Dalaran, his behavior during the Trial of the Crusade, and his challenging Thrall after taunting his leadership ability), Thrall ignored critical advice and council from his most trusted friends. Vol'jin warned him, Cairne warned him, and Saurfang disagreed as well, yet Thrall was either too proud or too blind to recognize the serious mistake he was about to make. Even after he gave Garrosh the mantle, Voljin and Cairne expressed serious concerns, which Thrall ignored. Thrall should have corrected his mistake before he left for the Maelstrom.

    So, why did Thrall ignore the friends he trusted and make a devastating decision like this? My answer would be Thrall's own selfish ambitions. One thing you learn very early on about Thrall is that he had a deep affection for his fallen friend, Grom Hellscream. What would bring Grom more honor than for his own son to lead the Horde that he died to save? I believe that it was Thrall's desire to honor Grom's memory that blinded him to the serious danger that Garrosh posed to the world.

    Yes, it was Thrall's duty to leave Orgrimmar and save us from the Cataclysm, but of all of the options he had for a temporary Warchief, he chose the worst possible candidate. Voljin, Carine, Saurfang, Nazgrim, and Etrigg would have all been obviously better choices than Garrosh. But again, Thall was blinded by his emotional need to honor Grom's memory.

    The genocide of Theramore, the destruction of the Vale, the death of Cairne, and for every other act of savagery that Garrosh has unleashed on Azeroth, the blame falls to Thrall.

    In my opinion, he is a fallen hero who owes a serious debt to the people of the Horde, the Alliance, and of course the Pandaren.

    As a Horde player, I firmly oppose any further influence that Thrall has in the Horde, especially in selecting a new Warchief.

    Thrall has unwillingly become a villain this saga, even though he had good intentions.

    Consider how many lives would have been saved and how much destruction could have been prevented, if Thrall hadn't failed so miserably despite the trustworthy advice of his friends.
    I do agree there's a certain responsibility that falls on Thrall for this. Garrosh was never ready for a position such as that... Seriously, who take a crackhead off the street and says "hey, let's make you mayor, it'll make you feel better about yourself!" (yeah, I just realized there's probably too many places that do this....).

    The saddest part, however, is we're seeing the same thing happen now with Maraad. This rebellious, bloodthirsty Dranei would let those he's been entrusted to protect (including children) die for the sake of killing an orc. And yet now we see he's getting some sort of "redemption" thing? Don't think so. He's already proven to be a bigger piece of shit than Garrosh was, and yet we're gonna go with the "it won't happen again" thing.

    I guess they'll write it in however they want, probably to make the Alliance feel like they have a hero in all of this, but the reality is that Maraad has done things he should be judged for, not released back into the war.

  6. #206
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    I guess they'll write it in however they want, probably to make the Alliance feel like they have a hero in all of this, but the reality is that Maraad has done things he should be judged for, not released back into the war.
    Maraad shirked his duty to seek vengeance. It's shitty but no where near as bad as anything Garrosh has done. I'm guessing people who think like you are what Blizzard is banking on when they say the Alliance has done things *just as bad* as the Horde...
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  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    Maraad shirked his duty to seek vengeance. It's shitty but no where near as bad as anything Garrosh has done. I'm guessing people who think like you are what Blizzard is banking on when they say the Alliance has done things *just as bad* as the Horde...
    I wasn't suggesting shirking his duty was "just as bad" as what Garrosh did by the end... But where we find Maraad in his beginnings and where we found Garrosh? Maraad is already 10x ahead of Garrosh. And letting this bloodthirsty coward run free is no bueno for anyone.

    Again, I doubt they're going to write it that way, because the Alliance needs something. Chances are it'll be a redemption story and will end up in flowers and pop tarts for the Alliance, it just seems a little tacked on to make a hero out of him.

    Time will tell. But I'd like to see Maraad as a raid boss just so we can put him down like the dog he is.

  8. #208
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    Alright, here's a thought.
    So on Timeless Isle we go collect thousands of Epoch Stones for Kairoz.
    With these Stones, we use an Hourglass to see into the future and past.
    In these visions, we see some very unsettling events, such as the murder of a Bronze Dragon, Anduin meeting Garrosh in a locked cell, as well as Stormwind corrupted with the Sha.
    Kairoz uses the empowered Hourglass to send Garrosh back in time to 35 years in the past.
    Garrosh stops Grommash from drinking the Demons Blood, and Grommash forms the Iron Horde.

    Thus, If we gather Epoch Stones for Kairoz, then the Iron Horde is formed and they invade Azeroth.

    With this logic, we actually are to blame for the events of Warlords of Draenor. Good going, guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Where do we live? Past? Presence? Future?
    Past threats are that. the past.. nothing scary anymore
    The future isn't here... we don't know it.. nothing can therefore scare one
    Conclusion.... the most dangerous threat is the one you're facing now.

  9. #209
    Well yeah it's easy to say it's Thralls fault in hindsight, but that's in hindsight.

  10. #210
    This is Hitlers mom fault not his...

  11. #211
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    I wasn't suggesting shirking his duty was "just as bad" as what Garrosh did by the end... But where we find Maraad in his beginnings and where we found Garrosh? Maraad is already 10x ahead of Garrosh. And letting this bloodthirsty coward run free is no bueno for anyone.
    Um, what?

    Again, I doubt they're going to write it that way, because the Alliance needs something. Chances are it'll be a redemption story and will end up in flowers and pop tarts for the Alliance, it just seems a little tacked on to make a hero out of him.
    Maraad doesn't need redemption of any kind

    Time will tell. But I'd like to see Maraad as a raid boss just so we can put him down like the dog he is.
    he dies in talador
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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    Um, what?

    Maraad doesn't need redemption of any kind

    he dies in talador
    Good that he's gone. Wish they had let us kill him.

    Just goes to show: nothing good can come for a Male Dranei.

  13. #213
    Garrosh chose his own path, plain and simple.
    'Words do not win wars. That is a tragedy.'

  14. #214
    Warchief Lime's Avatar
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    Thrall's fault? No.

    But Thrall, Vol'jin, and Cairne did a really horrible job at advising him.

    It's also funny that because SoO has been out for so long, a thread made a year ago is just as relevant as it is today.

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  15. #215
    Totally agree with OP, I will follow Thrall into battle against the Iron Horde he could have prevented but when it comes down to it, he has let a grand number of us down for what he did. What happens on Nagrand does not excuse Garrosh or Thrall of the actions on both Azeroth soil and this new Dreanor, there are still so many atrocities to recover from and all this Dreanor nonsense just to watch Thrall's attempt at a clean heart, to wipe away his mistakes. Wrong. His mistake cannot be forgiven so easily, this was a burden we endured for far too long and watched too many people die by the hands Garrosh, and the one person who pulled the trigger on that Garrosh gun. Stood Thrall that despite everyone advised him not to, is the reason we are now faced with an entire land of blood thirsty orcs.
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  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Lime View Post
    Thrall's fault? No.

    But Thrall, Vol'jin, and Cairne did a really horrible job at advising him.

    It's also funny that because SoO has been out for so long, a thread made a year ago is just as relevant as it is today.
    Thread would've been relevant since the reveal of MoP when we were told ahead of time about SoO.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Cairne was disqualified for being too old-fashioned and couldn't even keep the tauren united. Vol'jin wasn't even considered.
    Couldn't even keep the tauren united? Talking about those crazy grimtotem dudes?

    Because all orcs are united, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayb View Post
    Garrosh chose his own path, plain and simple.
    But he was made warchief AFTER he chose that path and made it really obvious to everyone.
    You cannot trust, nor take seriously, an adult male without facial hair.Boys have no facial hair and boys are not men.
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  18. #218
    Honestly in cataclism while hot headed, Garrosh was a good leader. He still valued honor and was against killing innocents which you see if you did the stonetalon quests where he actually executed a general for doing that.
    Then MoP came and he became a stereotypical "i am bad" villain.

  19. #219
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digory Kirke View Post
    Fair point.
    You necroed a thread from 2013 to say that?

    It's no wonder alliance fans can't get a happy from the lore, all the expectations and victim mentality.

    Funny how you people don't draw to that fact it's as much Varians fault for this, and he is the reason for this current expansion

  20. #220
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lime View Post
    But Thrall, Vol'jin, and Cairne did a really horrible job at advising him.
    Funny thing about advisors: they can't *force* their advice to be taken. Garrosh listened to all of them, and rejected their advice. Do you forget that Garrosh was already challenging Thrall when he was still Warchief? That he and Vol'jin were heated from the start of Cataclysm and that Cairne challenged Garrosh to the Mak'gora to remove his ass from power after he continually insulted and derided him?
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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