This is Thrall's Fault

[Deleted]

"Thrall’s glower deepened. Yes, Garrosh was loved and a fine fighter, but he was also rash and impulsive. Thrall was about to deliver him the ultimate power. A word floated to his mind, usurper, but he did not truly believe such a thing would happen. Garrosh needed something to placate an ego as mammoth as his legend—an ego that Thrall now realized he might have unwittingly helped to inflate. He had been concerned when he learned that Garrosh despised his father, and had wanted to show the son of Grom that Hellscream had done great good. But perhaps he might have made Grom look better than he was. If so, then the younger Hellscream’s arrogance might be, at least in part, due to Thrall himself. He had not been able to save Grom’s life; he had hoped to inspire and guide his son.

Still, Eitrigg would be there to temper Garrosh, as would Cairne, if Thrall asked it of his old friends. Thrall would not be gone long. Let Garrosh sit in his place temporarily in Grommash Hold, with Cairne and Eitrigg on either side. If the rumors were true, Garrosh had already tipped his hand with the Ashenvale incident, and Thrall knew Cairne would sit on the orc before he’d let anything like that get by him, now that he knew to be watchful of it. There wouldn’t be a lot that Garrosh could do, really, to harm the Horde, and—Thrall had to admit—there was much Garrosh could do to inspire it."
--The Shattering

What he didn't know was how fucking wrong he was.

[Deleted]

Which I'm pretty sure was mentioned by the devs as being a "whoops" moment where the story guys said one thing and the quest guys understood another. Basically, it was an OOC moment.

What? When was it said that the actions that Garrosh took there were a mistake on the dev side?

[Deleted]

Thrall was not over the death of Grom. He won't ever be. I guess he saw a lot of Grom in his son, and decided to put him in charge over any other of his allies. Plus, if not for Garrosh being put in charge, would we still have such an epic, awesome villain?

[Deleted]

Garrosh was pretty happy when Thrall gave him that power... and no, not everyone knew Garrosh would be a bad Warchief. Those crowds wouldn't have cheered so hard if they didn't think he was a good choice.

Initially, when Thrall told him he would like to make him warchief, he told Thrall that he wasn't fit for the position - that he was a fighter and not a leader. He did not feel comfortable with it at all.

And when I say everybody knew he was going to be a bad warchief, I mean the players. And yes, everybody knew he was gonna fail.

[Deleted]

Uh nice topic for CoT since it's full with these "what if"s
Fate has it, the day when Garroshs madness leads to a solution to beat an even greater evil! Or so...
Maybe someone wanted to make things interesting this way. Like all fate is just a game..... !

Think of it... after the theramore bomb someone tells jaina "oh lulz this is just to progress the story of the game, peace is bad for pvp! so be mad plz sis and DO something"

[Jotaux]

Thrall is partly to blame for this. Everyone could see from every instance that Garrosh was involved in that he had all the qualities of a terrible leader. Thrall is easily my favourite character in Warcraft and the reason I rolled a shaman but here he just plained fucked up. Honestly I haven't been a fan of his choices since the pre WoTLK event. He should have smacked down Garrosh and not bothered taking it easy on him. Hell if he had simply reversed Saurfang the younger's and Garrosh's role in the horde at the start of WoTLK all the problems would have been solved.

[The Madgod]

Initially, when Thrall told him he would like to make him warchief, he told Thrall that he wasn't fit for the position - that he was a fighter and not a leader. He did not feel comfortable with it at all.

Which quickly faded. Thrall didn't force it on him, he chose it willingly.

And when I say everybody knew he was going to be a bad warchief, I mean the players. And yes, everybody knew he was gonna fail.

We're talking lore here, I would say that doesn't really count towards one argument or the other.

[Deathgoose]

He was the de facto leader of The Horde in Northrend, was The Horde not victorious?

Careful, there are many threads running around MMO that claim Wrath was an Alliance-biased expac, all about the Alliance, meaning they defeated ICC, etc, so, that means no.

And when I played the Wrath Horde quests, the only direct time I saw Garrosh in Northrend was:

1) In Borean Tundra, telling Saurfang how he would conquer the world by stomping on models like a child in a tantrum.
2) Acting like an asshat in the Ulduar trailer. Diplomatic meeting? FUCK DAT IMMA GONNA RAGE RAWR!
3) Acting like an asshat at the Colliseum, pretty much spitting on Thrall, Tirion, and anyone.

And then there are several examples of what a fine leader he was:

1) There was the Broken Front debacle, where his Horde grunts, acting in his vision of "honorable combat with the enemy" waited for the Alliance to be engaged with the Scourge forces, and then ambushed them from behind... managing to get both the Alliance AND the Horde forces wiped out and completely destroying the offensive against the Scrouge for *both*.

2) The crazy dictator lady in Grizzly Hills that drank deeply from the Garrosh Kool-aid, so much that the player winds up participating in a coup to remove her from power. Foreshadowing much?

The Horde victory in Northrend was not *because* of Garrosh, it was in *spite* of Garrosh.

[Thage]

This entire expansion has been a case study in how the best of intentions can cause things to spin horribly out of control.

The Alliance landed on Pandaria to find Anduin and protect Pandaria from Horde conquest--but their emotions contributed to empowering the Sha to levels only heard of in legend, allowing Anger to force the yaungol into aggressive migrating patterns and allowing Fear to corrupt the mantid empire, among other things, and the sudden resurgence of the mogu stretched the Shado-Pan thin, which wasn't helped when their members were continually overwhelmed by these empowered Sha.

The adventurer helps Lorewalker Cho explore the Valley of Emperors(?), only to unwittingly lead the Zandalari right to Lei Shen's burial tomb, allowing them to spirit his body away to the Isle of Thunder and resurrect him.

The Alliance and Horde lead exhausted and terrified refugees from Kun-Lai into the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, with the Celestials' blessings, only to inadvertently lead the Kor'kron there as well, where they launched a stripmining operation courtesy goblin ingenuity.

The Sunreavers remained ostensibly neutral but Horde-affiliated in Dalaran, opening the door for Garrosh to force them into allowing him to abuse Dalaran's portal network to get to Darnassus. This causes the Purge of Dalaran as Jaina immediately assumes the worst and arrests, kills, or forces out all blood elves in Dalaran.

When adventurers went to the excavation site to handle the sudden surge of elementals and strange beasts lurking within the mine, they uncovered Y'Shaarj's heart. In doing so, they led Malkorok to the Heart, at which point Malkorok took possession of it in Hellscream's name. This leads directly to Garrosh taking the heart to the source of the Vale's waters (and by proxy, the lifeblood of Pandaria's waters as a whole), and immersing it, causing widespread devastation to the Vale as the Old God's heart corrupts the waters and the land surrounding them.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and the number one lesson to take from MoP is that we, the heroes of Azeroth, really need to start considering the impact our actions have on the world. We're in the mountain-mover tier now, it's time to act like it and take more responsibility instead of needing characters like Taran Zhu to call us out before we pick up the slack.

[Anjerith]

You mean the same campaign where Saurfang has you doing things behind Garrosh's back? It wasn't an accident the soldiers at the Wrathgate were hand-picked by Saurfang because they weren't bloodthirsty morons (of course we know exactly why that backfired).

No matter what happened on the battlefield itself, the Orcs returned from Northrend singing the praises of Hellscream, who was always first on the battlefield and last off. Because of his actions and his willingness to sacrifice his own life for the Glory of the Horde, he was seen as the one responsible for the Hordes Victory.

Saurfang played a role, but his was of constantly being hidden in the shadows. He never took the field and thus never took the attention of the Orcs. The loss of his son also broke him, which can't be overlooked.

[josykay]

Strawman? Garrosh never wanted to be warchief and Thrall pushed him into it. Nothing of what happened, would have happened, had Thrall made someone else warchief. And everybody knew Garrosh would be a terrible warchief. Everybody.

Didn't Garrosh challenge Thrall at the end of Bruning Crusade to become warchief?

[Grubjuice]

maybe thrall knew this would happend. and knew that everyone would rise against Garrosh together for a better world

why would thrall pull a long con that killed so many people? that seems rather dickish.
i mean i would expect someone like sylvanas to pull a long con like that, but not thrall.

[Aquamonkey]

Didn't Garrosh challenge Thrall at the end of Bruning Crusade to become warchief?

Garrosh issued a Mak'gora because Thrall was waiting to send troops to Northrend. It was interrupted by the Scourge invasion.

[mvaliz]

-snip-
The Horde victory in Northrend was not *because* of Garrosh, it was in *spite* of Garrosh.

That's Blizzard writing for you.

Why is Garrosh the "Horde Hero of Northrend"? Because the writers told you he was

The same reason why Thrall is the greatest Shaman in all of Azeroth. Why? Because Metzen told you he was.

[Grand Crusader Absalom]

It's all Sargeras' fault! Had he not employed Kil'Jaeden, who tricked the orcs into demon blood, who marched through the Dark Portal with Grom in tow, who abandoned his son we would never have got to this point!

So.... Half Life 3 confirmed?


OT: humorous reading Trassk's responses on anyone saying anything wrong about thrallface.

Yes, he did dun goofed up. Even anyone could see during Wrath and his outbursts that Garrosh was never going to be an ideal warchief... not me though I love Garrosh.

[sixx]

You Sir(OP), expressed on words way better than I ever could, my thoughts.
Thrall is to blame for all of this! Even Jaina said so and I couldn't agree more. But he preferred to devote himself to the elements and such, practically doing everything that b*** Aggra told him to.

[Deleted]

Yes, it is Thrall's fault. He gave him the power, only because of whom his father was(and funny enough it turned out the same way). It is pretty much thrall who started this, There was more experinsed people to be warchief of the orcs, and even more To be the leader of the horde.

[Shodan30]

I Do put some of this on thralls shoulders. While i can understand him wanting to help the son of his best friend, he spent too much time under the old rule of the fel orcs to understand what the horde went through getting to where it is today. Hes essentially an outsider without any of the comradery earned through blood and tears the other races of the horde have earned. I cant even say his intentions were all that good. One thing this expansion has not done a good job doing is show us his mindset. in Cataclysm we saw him react badly to people going over the top but at the same time you had to wonder if he was just covering his own tracks. This expansion hes just a setpiece in his throne room for the most part not giving the casual player any idea what hes thinking, we just see the results.

Thrall wanted peace bad enough he left the horde who was pretty much destined to continue with war no matter what he wanted. However i think he made a very poor choice in giving Garrosh as much power as he did.

Also a little tired of the horde being the bad guy in every expansion. Outland, the bad guys a blood elf, frost king, he may have started a human but arthas might as well be considered an undead by everyone, cata may have had the dragons as the main focus, but the horde was doing some pretty rotten things behind the scenes. Now the leader of the horde is going to be this expansions final boss.

[Digory Kirke]

You Sir(OP), expressed on words way better than I ever could, my thoughts.
Thrall is to blame for all of this! Even Jaina said so and I couldn't agree more. But he preferred to devote himself to the elements and such, practically doing everything that b*** Aggra told him to.

Thank you

[Tierbook]

if the Horde won Northrend how is it considered an alliance centric expansion? unless the most alliance centric they could get was beating the alliance.... i was under the impression the alliance won for the most part honestly