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  1. #161
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Why are we arguing abut this? Yes, it's Thrall's fault, he accepts it's his fault and wants to fix the mistake he made (he says this confronting Garrosh). Thrall didn't think he primed a weapon that would be aimed at the Alliance and blow up in the Horde's face. Garrosh's tutelage under his guidance as well as Saurfang, Eitrigg, Cairne and Vol'jin was supposed to temper him, but it didn't.

    Thrall made the mistake of putting him in charge, he did not do it maliciously, twirling his mustache while Garrosh destroys the Horde and incurs the wrath of the Alliance. I suppose the parallel between the Titans and Mogu story from 5.2 was lost? Thrall is the Titan, Hellscream is Lei Shen, his loyal orcs are the Mogu.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Thrall promoted Garrosh despite the advice of all of his allies.

    Garrosh goes nutso and does tons of bad stuff.

    Thrall even admits Garrosh become Warchief is a mistake.

    How people like Thrassk can pretend this isn't Thrall's fault is a joke.
    So true. Thrassk is totally incapable of thinking through the fact that Thrall's mistake (which Thrassk admitted was a mistake) lead to all of this chaos. Without Thrall's mistake, Cairne would likely still be alive and the Vale would still be whole.

  3. #163
    Why logically you have a point.

    I honestly think it was just writers using the character for where they wanted it to go. I doubt they ever even thought of this when deciding who Thrall would appoint etc.

    I'd say it's just cheap writing. Don't read into it too much. Even though it would make for a very interesting storyline!

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletnips View Post
    Yah I did, Warsong Hold was his command post, his army set up on Garrosh's Landing the Warsong Offensive was commanded by him the leader of the Warsong Clan. Several times it's mentioned that Garrosh is running things in Northrend, at Agmar's Hammer Overlord Agmar states "from this throne I issue the command of Hellscream" pretty obvious who's given orders to him in Dragonblight.

    Thrall held celebrations in Orgrimmar afterwards to commend his leadership in Northrend despite their differences, and it was Garrosh at Icecrown Citadel to help finish the job.
    1/ Garrosh's Landing was a disaster. A large chunk of the army was killed and nearly all their siege equipment was destroyed/damaged. It was also their only point of reliable resupply, and it was lost very quickly.

    2/ Warsong Hold was built on top of a Nerubian Nest. Nothing more to say here.

    3/ Garrosh appointed bad commanders to posts in Dragonblight and Grizzly Hills, and gave bad orders personally (as well as contemplating openly about seizing the Alliance's port, despite the fact they were allies at the time) while dismissing all advice from Saurfang. Saurfang cleaned up his mess in Borean, and others cleaned up his mess elsewhere.

    4/ Saurfang did more in Icecrown Citadel then Garrosh - who just stood at the front door and waited for the fighting to be over.

    5/ Thrall gave the Orcs they hero they needed - despite that hero being dead (Saurfang Junior) and the other hero being in mourning/unwilling to accept the fame. Garrosh was literally the only choice, despite the fact he did nothing to earn it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Digory Kirke View Post
    So true. Thrassk is totally incapable of thinking through the fact that Thrall's mistake (which Thrassk admitted was a mistake) lead to all of this chaos. Without Thrall's mistake, Cairne would likely still be alive and the Vale would still be whole.
    Potentially, at least.

    If anything this shows Thrall isn't infallible, which makes him a better character. But a better person, probably not - he screwed up royally, and should have come back to fix his mistake a long time ago.

  5. #165
    As someone said, I blame Aggra.
    >.>
    <.<
    And maybe Deathwing for causing the Cataclysm.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ogdru Jahad View Post
    Why logically you have a point.

    I honestly think it was just writers using the character for where they wanted it to go. I doubt they ever even thought of this when deciding who Thrall would appoint etc.

    I'd say it's just cheap writing. Don't read into it too much. Even though it would make for a very interesting storyline!
    I just don't think Metzen thought through the potential damage this would do to Thrall as a hero. His judgement is compromised imo.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    I blame Aggra.
    Lol, this made me laugh. She is partially to blame I suppose, for the slower response after the end of the Cataclysm, but Thrall didn't meet Aggra until after putting Garrosh in power. Even she thought it was a bad idea when she found out lol.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    What the hell is Thrall even doing? he hasn't stepped foot in pandaria? and has no idea at all that the boy he swore to protect is going berserk and becoming a tyrant? He can't be that naive.
    Busy keeping the Maelstrom from blowing the planet apart.
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    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #169
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    I still cant believe Thrall waited till the very end to confront garrosh when everybody is dead.

    The guy left to go to Org back in 5.3 which was months ago what was he doing in the meantime?

    Thrall shouldve walked straight to the throne room and called him out infront of everybody to see but instead he waits to the very very last moment and to do it when nobody is around to see.

    (Why do i even bother to argue over this poorly written crap)
    Last edited by Peaky Blinder; 2013-08-16 at 03:27 AM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    I still cant believe Thrall waited till the very end to confront garrosh when everybody is dead.

    The guy left to go to Org back in 5.3 which was months ago what was he doing in the meantime?

    Thrall shouldve walked straight to the throne room and called him out infront of everybody to see but instead he waits to the very very last moment and to do it when nobody is around to see.

    (Why do i even bother to argue over this poorly written crap)
    He said he went into Org to get people out.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    I still cant believe Thrall waited till the very end to confront garrosh when everybody is dead.

    The guy left to go to Org back in 5.3 which was months ago what was he doing in the meantime?

    Thrall shouldve walked straight to the throne room and called him out infront of everybody to see but instead he waits to the very very last moment and to do it when nobody is around to see.

    (Why do i even bother to argue over this poorly written crap)
    It really makes me wish that Garrosh wasn't revealed as the expansion baddy before it even released. Ruined his story. To think, we really wouldn't have found out completely until the trailer released today.

  12. #172
    Yes, Thrall has his portion of guilt in this, absolutely. Specially since everybody advised him against it. Hell, even garrosh HIMSELF said he was not ready and didn't want to accept. If Thrall backed off, probably garrosh would still be really restless and cause trouble, but notin the most powwerfull position of the Horde.

    All that said, Thrall believed that was the right choice for his people... People do make mistakes. It is interesting to see him failing at least once, since he is always the one leading to victory and making the right decisions ever since Lord of the Clans.

    And as was said by other people... you really can't be fully responsible for he actions of other people. It was not Thrall making Garrosh kick the heart of Y'shaarj in the pools of the Vale.

    Garrosh was rotten and putting him in Warchief position magnified his flaws, but who really caused chaos was Garrosh himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digory Kirke View Post
    I just don't think Metzen thought through the potential damage this would do to Thrall as a hero. His judgement is compromised imo.
    Actually, I think it is interesting seeing Thrall making a mistake. Show us he is not perfect.

    People do make mistakes, you know. Only his was a huge one and caused great damage, even because Thrall is a great character.

  13. #173
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    He said he went into Org to get people out.
    I thought he said he went to go in to get allies

    Was eitrigg and saurfang the only guys he could muster?

    He couldve ended this back in 5.3 he shouldve donned his doomhammer armour walked straight into Org and threw the gauntlet down which garrosh wouldve picked up and the two couldve duked it out with the entire orc population watching.

    So if garrosh did anything dishonorable the orcs wouldve seen and maybe think twice following garrosh. But instead he decides to wait till the very end to fight him which is kinda pointless seeing most of org is littered with dead orcs and dead orc heroes.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    I thought he said he went to go in to get allies

    Was eitrigg and saurfang the only guys he could muster?

    He couldve ended this back in 5.3 he shouldve donned his doomhammer armour walked straight into Org and threw the gauntlet down which garrosh wouldve picked up and the two couldve duked it out with the entire orc population watching.

    So if garrosh did anything dishonorable the orcs wouldve seen and maybe think twice following garrosh. But instead he decides to wait till the very end to fight him which is kinda pointless seeing most of org is littered with dead orcs and dead orc heroes.
    Thrall says: Wait Vol'jin. Horde is spilling Horde blood. It is tearing me apart.
    Vol'jin says: We need ya, mon.
    Thrall says: I know. I trust you to lead the siege. I am needed elsewhere.
    Thrall says: I refuse to believe that all of my brethren support Garrosh.
    Vol'jin says: Ya set one foot in Orgrimmar, Hellscream gonna bury a knife in ya neck!
    Thrall says: I am going to Orgrimmar, alone. Eitrigg, Saurfang, surely they are standing against Garrosh. I must find others.
    Thrall says: Its a risk I have to take. But if I am killed, please watch over Aggra and my boy.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #175
    I am Murloc! Peaky Blinder's Avatar
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    So what was he doing for 3 months then LOL.

    Thrall says he refuses to believe all the orcs support garrosh and maybe at the time that was the case but why did he leave it to the last minute to do anything.

    Hell he couldve ended this in 5.1 after the attack on senjin village.

    I guess my point is you dont kill a king when nobody is watching you kill him when the entire court can see and i dont believe he wouldve been murdered the moment he set foot in org the orcs still have respect for thrall and wouldve let him in to confront garrosh IMO.

  16. #176
    He couldn't have predicted that Garrosh would become a tyrant, he thought Garrosh would actually be a good leader in his absence and that he wouldn't be a super tyrannical dictator bent on turning the Horde and the whole of Azeroth into orc controlled that only those who never questioned him would be free.

  17. #177
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Even the wisest of us cannot see all outcomes. He did what he thought was best at the time, and you cannot fault him for that.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss Bill Cosby

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrandron View Post
    He couldn't have predicted that Garrosh would become a tyrant, he thought Garrosh would actually be a good leader in his absence and that he wouldn't be a super tyrannical dictator bent on turning the Horde and the whole of Azeroth into orc controlled that only those who never questioned him would be free.
    Here is my issue though: Both Vol'jin and Cairne knew that Garrosh would likely become a tyrant. My anger with Thrall is that he didn't listen when he was the ONLY one who thought his decision was right. This is why I feel, like I articulated in my first post, that Thrall is to blame. For everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    Even the wisest of us cannot see all outcomes. He did what he thought was best at the time, and you cannot fault him for that.
    Valid statement, but like I said in my first post: His friends and advisers warned him. He had every chance in the world to make the right decision, and his pride for Grom blinded him. Even AFTER Garrosh was Warchief and Vol'jin contacts him half-way through Cataclysm and updated Thrall on Garrosh's evil behavior, he made no effort to correct his mistake. But now, all of the sudden, now that the world is falling apart again, Thrall takes interest. Correction, Vol'jin is the one who is leading the charge here, and his life is on the line because Thrall made a grave mistake and failed to correct it (or even attempt to).

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Digory Kirke View Post
    Here is my issue though: Both Vol'jin and Cairne knew that Garrosh would likely become a tyrant. My anger with Thrall is that he didn't listen when he was the ONLY one who thought his decision was right. This is why I feel, like I articulated in my first post, that Thrall is to blame. For everything.
    He did listen. He didn't make the choice lightly. He trusted in his friends being able to keep Garrosh on the right path.

    You should probably read the Shattering, since that does really shed a lot of light on Thrall's thought process... it certainly wasn't one where he fully endorsed Garrosh without even considering the viewpoints of others or doubting his choice.

    Valid statement, but like I said in my first post: His friends and advisers warned him. He had every chance in the world to make the right decision, and his pride for Grom blinded him. Even AFTER Garrosh was Warchief and Vol'jin contacts him half-way through Cataclysm and updated Thrall on Garrosh's evil behavior, he made no effort to correct his mistake. But now, all of the sudden, now that the world is falling apart again, Thrall takes interest. Correction, Vol'jin is the one who is leading the charge here, and his life is on the line because Thrall made a grave mistake and failed to correct it (or even attempt to).
    Thrall had shaman stuff to do then. You know, the whole ensuring the world wouldn't tear itself apart thing with the Maelstrom. Nor did Garrosh do anything THAT evil yet.

    Nor was it pride for Grom that blinded him, it was trust in his friends being able to lead Garrosh onto a path that would make him a wise leader and trusting Garrosh to want to be on that path, rather than the path of a dictator.

  20. #180
    A lot has happened since then. According to this statement everyone who votes in democracy is guilty of the flaws of the one who's chosen.

    Also, in the Cataclysm era there were shortages of recourses, and I think Thrall made the descision to choose Garrosh as he was willing to fight for it.

    Yes now we can all say the descision was a mistake, but i think that's kind of too easy.

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