For council and horridon, yes it is possible to symbiosis a paladin and bubble those off. You just don't do that because your damage will be quite shit compared to soul swap. It is also a minor dps loss on Iron Qon.
Also you won't get frostbite, but I get that you said it as an example.
All this also means that you need a paladin in your group. I for one do not.
I'd love to get deterrence. Sadly that's for restro druidsYou can also get Deterrence from a Hunter or Dispersion from a Priest, which are almost as good.
EDIT: Meh ignore this post I guess... It seems that the version of this thread that I had open was hours old It's already been answered/discussed.
I'm not saying that Ferals don't have a place in any raid and that all Ferals are shit. What I and several others have stated time and time again, is that for 10 man there's simply no excuse to pick a Feral over a Rogue (unless you don't care about progression) and with the rapid decline in Heroic 25 man guilds (13/13 Heroic guilds that is), it's not getting any easier to get a raid spot as a Feral.
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But I don't agree with his point whatsoever. If you truly believe that the only reason why Feral's aren't being brought to a raid, is cause they used to have a bad rep, then I think you're mistaken. For new players who come to forums and ask "What class is easiest to play" or for the newbie player who has no knowledge about any class, maybe that would be the case. But the numbers we've been going from in this thread, is 10 and 25 man Heroic Lei Shen. Don't tell me, that players capable at playing at that level, can't see past what's false perception and what's fact.
Fact: Rogues got more raid utility and better dps than Ferals.
Fact: Rogues have 3 dps specs, Druids got 1 healing spec, 1 ranged spec, 1 melee spec and 1 tanking spec. Both the healing and ranged spec are far more popular than the melee and the tank spec.
What sane raid leader would ever bring a Resto, a Balance and a Feral to a 10 man raid? I honestly think we've been over the most common reasons to why Ferals have a low representation and stuff like "I never liked the whole shape shifting thing" or "I don't like that you can't see my armor" hardly counts as valid (in this context) reasons to why we see so few Ferals having killed the hardest boss in the Tier on Heroic.
have not seen a single feral in raids this expansion and I pugged quite a bit on my alt...maining resto with feral OS I've had a hard time keeping a raid spot especially early in the expansion when resto was also not so much on par with other heals in regular ToT...come heroics resto became more viable but they asked me to change my OS from feral to boom for 2heal fights and looks like I'm gonna have to keep it for SoO as well, even though I enjoy dpsing as feral much more, used to be my main spec...
I wouldn't completely discount opinions that may not seem directly related to end-game heroic progression, such as visual concerns, shape-shifting, and the likes of it. Many of the people I've raided with started out with simple opinions like that, although not restricted to criticisms concerning the druid class. Before you know it, they've been playing with one class for so long that they enjoy raiding with it... sometimes all it takes is the love of the class and the will to make it work to make it viable for your raid. I'll be realistic, though, this likely isn't a case for the majority of high-end progression people, but it does exist.
I figured I'd throw out another reason why there might not be as many ferals in this expansion at the heroic end-game level, and it does stem from the talent tree change. Certainly there were people who just didn't like the removal of bearcatting and will not play a druid due to that, but from a gearing perspective (especially in a 10man), the ability to gear a formerly-Feral druid with one set of gear while being able to play two different specs effectively with that set of gear was huge.
If you want your Guardian to go Feral for a fight or vice versa, you can technically use the same set of gear, but it's not nearly as effective as it used to be. I've tried DPSing with my crit-laden gear, and there's a huge DPS loss from using my separate Feral gear (especially since I can't use RoR with crit > mastery on my tanking gear), not to mention lacking tier set bonuses that used to be on the same gear. 25man raiding spoils my main with how much more forgiving loot drops tend to be when searching for that one elusive item, but it's a constraint of the 10man raiding environment when you have to consider progression.
You're right about the splitting up Feral and Guardian, that was something that didn't make life easier for either of the specs and something I feel they didn't actually think through before doing it. Was it OP as hell back in DS with Guardian dps? Yes it was, but the question is, if there would have been a better solution to it.
There may be the odd uncut gem out there, who picked his/her class did NOT pick Feral due to visual effects etc. but again, if Feral was a really strong class or needed for X boss due to their utility, you can be sure that some of the top end raiders would re-roll, bring an alt or even level one in a heart beat.
And yes, it could work bringing a Resto, a Balance and a Feral but as you said, you did it on an alt. If it was your main raid during progression, I doubt you'd be doing that. I mean, it's like Protection Paladins and Disc Priests. Is the content doable without these 2 classes? Ofc they are, as previously stated, I raided majority of this Tier without a singe Paladin in the roster. Was it easy? It was annoying as hell not being able to cheese anything. But at that point, the only thing we could fit into the roster, would be a Holy Paladin and we just couldn't manage to recruit one.
And if you're anything serious about your progression, you'll want a strong if not optimal setup. And in such a setup there's no room for a Feral. That's the bottom line for 10 man.
Speaking of changes, like Rioo was mentioning, a big turn-off has been for the past two expansions, Feral bleeds get their power reduced into the ground due to PvP reasons. While I think most of the complaining was because people went into PvP situations with no resilience at the start of an expac and wondered why they were getting eaten alive, the changes went through nonetheless. Perhaps with the change to how resilience works, aka innate damage reduction independent of gear, this won't be an issue in the next expansion. From watching Ferals get changed often since classic, I could safely say almost all the changes that reduce the power of Ferals were due to PvP. While the separation of Guardian and Feral helps a little bit, it's still a constant fight every expansion since every PvP change usually results in lower PvE performance.
Once we got to the hardest heroic bosses I asked the raid leader to start looking for a replacement for me because it had become extremely obvious I was holding them back. They were very patient at trying to find ways to compensate for Ferals shortcomings, especially considering it's the top guild on my server, but I could not in good conscience continue.
You can all argue that feral has shortcomings, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But I can argue that a lot of the reason my guild has killed 13/13h is because of things that I bring to the table.
Only 1 fight this tier has left feral dps in the bottom tier and that is Ra-den, and that's only if the feral simply has to swap to orbs.
Part of the reason for such a low representation is all of the new players who jump in the forums and read threads about ferals complaining about feral, and other people complaining about feral. So we have this bad stigma attached to us that we are perpetuating ourselves. Overall feral is looking pretty strong next tier, aside from a few bosses which are anti-melee to begin with.
More to the point, SoO does feel quite good for Feral, for a number of reasons, but I think a huge reason is that the "personal responsibility" aspect of SoO has less to do with DR/immunity abilities and more with actually doing something properly (unlike ToT with class abilities negating/circumventing the personal responsibility mechanics). There is also an abundance of raid-wide AoE damage where people will more often than not be spread out or moving, allowing for Tranquility to be very desired and a staple in raid cooldown rotations, or for dealing with mechanics (for example, Guardians/Ferals will likely be the largest off-spec healer on Immersius). While there are plenty of adds fights, the amount and/or the HP of the targets is very nice for Feral gameplay in most situations.
While some encounters may seem or be anti-melee, they're going to pretty much be universally bad for all melee, so that shouldn't be a sole reason to preclude bringing a Feral to a raid over another melee. About the closest thing to being not as advantageous for Ferals is the Crawler Mine mechanic on Iron Juggernaut, but even Ferals can easily deal with the damage dealt if they need to deal with them. And let's not forget about Typhoon... it's going to get a lot more use in SoO than ToT.
Looking at 10 man HC dps, assassination rogues do 16% more dps than a Feral - this is not simmed, it's collected data (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall/10H/). Feral is in the low 3rd part, we're not near the median.
Actually, rogues are at the median, but still 50-60k behind mages and warlocks. Casters totally dominate the top 3rd of the chart. The only caster spec near the bottom is frost mage - that spec is trailing Feral by 13k, which isn't much, considering Feral is at 216k.
I don't think the higher rogue representation when compared to Feral is because their raid CD's are better - they just deliver much more dps and the Feral CD's can be covered by others. If the situation was reversed, Ferals would be there instead of rogues.
On top of that, rogues are just much easier to play to deliver an acceptable output. Assassination is basically Mutilate to 5 x CP - Envenom to refresh S&D - refresh Rupture - use the 2 CD's at optimal times - profit!. And because you generate combo points a lot faster than S&D runs out, you can basically just watch your Rupture ticks and your CD's. At 35% you replace Muti with Dispatch, which you also use when proc is up. Easy.
Compare that to a Feral:
- SR has to be refreshed manually.
- Rip/Rake/Thrash up all the time. Thrash doesn't give combo points on target.
- Keep FF armor debuff up (30 sec uptime).
- Use HT, and time that right if you have DoC.
- Below 25%, use FB to refresh Rip, unless you can have a more powerful Rip!
- Ferals have to watch 4 dots/debuffs, compared to rogue watching 1.
- Ferals have to refresh selfbuff, where a rogue gets it refreshed doing normal rotation.
- Ferals have to change finisher inside execute-phase and have to have a UI to decide if Rip or FB is better. Rogues just spam another combo builder.
- Ferals have to use a healing ability within an 8 sec window to maximize dps. Rogues just use their CD's.
- Ferals have 1 primary dps CD as baseline. Assassination rogues have 2 and these can be stacked, one of them even glyphed!
I love to play a Feral and find rogues boringly easy - but it's not even a contest. If you look at complexity - even without considering that Ferals should be positioned behind the target to deliver Shred when appropriate - playing a Feral is about twice as complex as playing a rogue. And that's just the normal rotation, we're not even talking any advanced stuff like dot-tracking (trinket procs and their relation to DoC charges and dots), off-healing, battle ressing, off-tanking etc.
This situation will continue. The changes to RoR and Nature's Swiftness will nerf Feral top attainable dps by approx 10%. I don't know how Assassination will look like, but even if it just stays at the current level, Feral will be trailing rogues by around 20-25% in SoO, making Ferals non-viable for progression raiding.
Last edited by Whitepaw; 2013-08-23 at 04:37 PM.
It's a bit like comparing feral vs asassination, and assassination becoming none-raid viable, and then saying feral has more players then it, when all the rogues just went elsewhere, exactly what is happening to druid at the moment, it's just the numbers are splitting druids specs, where they are not splitting rogue specs...
You can't really use raidbots when the population size of two specs aren't anywhere close to one another.
Simple example: lets say you had 10 ferals and 100 rogues with equal skill distribution. Raidbots would average the top 10 players of each spec. The average of the top 10 ferals = average feral (50th percentile), the average of the top 10 rogues would only include the best players (95th percentile). Your results would overwhelmingly favor rogues even if the two classes were perfectly equal in every way. Actual raidbots is slightly better, but we're still looking at a huge population discrepancy so you're probably comparing like the 95th percentile of ferals to the 99.5th percentile of rogues - that's easily a 30k dps gap.
In T14, feral was one of, if not the, strongest progression dps spec (check out my T14 videos linked in sig - there are several where I'm 10%+ higher than the highest Method/BL warlocks in their kill vids) but too few players actually played the spec for any recognition to happen. This tier, ferals are still one of the strongest dps specs.
The problem isn't the numbers that feral puts out, its that the utility isn't as high as other classes that may be almost as strong. Also, boomkins have becoming strong as well, so there's no incentive to go feral over boomkin. Plus guardians are like the least desirable tank so feral/guardian hybrids are discouraged as well.
That said main actual issue I have with Feral is the same deal with pre-MOP warlock complaints in a way... you basically put too much effort in for too little reward. The class toolkit (bleeds) are reminiscent of DoTs only you can't put them up on demand which limits how well you can take advantage of procs and forces a lot of pre-planning. To even pick up the spec seems extremely unforgiving.
The biggest thing that would probably go a long way with "clunkiness" is a Combo Point overhaul (for both feral and rogue). Can't say much more as I haven't played the spec in some time, but I did mention Shred/Mangle being a good example of the "button bloat" problem, I don't believe the difference between those two is hugely compelling other than wasting action bar space and forcing dumb micromanagement with moving adds.
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Regarding Frostbite: You don't get that as melee, point is moot.
Regarding Fire Debuff: As far as I know that's where a rogue is better every way, less damage from the fire AND they can remove it on a shorter CD. Obviously other classes don't have the luxury at all, but you only have so many melee who soak anyway (we don't compare to range classes since after all they won't be doing double fire debuffs).
Regarding Static Shock: Dispersion is the better choice (shorter CD) but most classes do have that immunity also if not on an even shorter CD. In 25m your CD list would not work.
Last edited by voidspark; 2013-08-23 at 10:41 PM.
I may be somewhat spoiled but when I was leveling for this expansion, I knew I was going to play dps and had the choice of either feral or boomkin. I gathered leather agi & int gear in the heroic dungeons before our raid, and tried out both specs and decided feral was the way to go for T14. I'm sure many other dps druids can be in the same category - unless you're in a 10m with a boomkin already, it's not too difficult to pick up a intellect offset and swap to it if it appears that balance is the far better spec (which it currently is, and likely will be next tier).As an aside, how worthwhile is it to compare range and melee specs of the same class to each other? (versus say, comparing arms and fury or comparing pure specs). I typically don't see Elemental/Enhance suffering because the other is too good, they are (at least from what I see) typically compared to other range or other melee respectively.
To me at least, if rolling a new character from level 1 -> 90 and gearing him up is a 10 on the difficulty scale, and swapping from mutilate to sub is a 1 on the same scale, then getting offspec gear of a different primary stat and changing specs is like a 3 or a 4. Not something you do on a whim but not a great barrier to those who are willing. Gearing up a new toon on the other hand is at least a 5 - you'll have to carry it for awhile before it gets gear. I mean, I guess when you're slotting for a boss you're comparing melee with melee, but when you're deciding what to play overall, it's easier to swap to a different role on the same class than it is to switch to a completely different one.
Anyway, in T14, balance was fairly weak. At least one of our boomkins continually asked to be allowed to respec into feral because there was almost a 50% damage differential at the start of the tier.